Mini 1630: Edgar Allan Poe uPick GAME OVER!

[Policy Vote]

And CoA, why is BRantz's play somehow not as safe as kitty's?

I kinda have only two townreads, so it's not like he's in the safe pile. But she hit more of the big red flags than he did, like the 'oh i was totally confused about the faction too lol' and 'we should totally trust lynx about his ability'

after

he told us that self-watcher is negative utility. Basically Brantz could be just in over his head whereas kitty looks like she's actively advancing a scum plan. Also, the only other time I played with her she didn't seem to be the type of player to miss things like which abilities Lynx can use while he's alive, or whether the neighborize hits live or dead players. Something's really off there.

How is any of this "actively advancing" anything? The examples you gave are passive as fuck.

Missing setup things isn't scum motivated. It's just missing setup things.

I do not understand the stick sthar has up his butt here.

Wanna crawl up in there and get it for me?
I said 'I want to policy lynch FTL' Ceph said 'you are a scumread of mine yet I want to hear your case on FTL.' If I remotely thought that he might be scum, I'd vote him for trying to set up a wagon without accountability.

Your logic is beyond my understanding. Wanting to hear someone out is now setting up a wagon? Am I supposed to put on my hardhat and say "I think you're scum therefore I'm not going to even remotely consider hearing you out because I can't possibly be wrong"? o.o

I can see TTH being especially paranoid about me as town as well and that's why I'm not scumreading her more heavily

Incidentally, my chat with TTH is a lot of screaming about losing to you. It's why I'm letting her needle you to get a read: she's much more motivated and theoretically practiced at it than I am.

Tell me more about this

Town for sure:

Policy Lynch
LynxKuroneko

Ghatokaca

Could we please, please, please stop doing this?

-Ceph

[Policy Vote]

Copper speaks to my soul.

-Ceph

[Bookitty]

Okay. I read your ISO, Copper, and I still don't see what you're talking about on the reads shifting. I mean, I see that they do, but not why.

One issue I do have (and Policy Lynch was good enough to remind me of it with something he quoted in Post 600 at the top this page) is that CoA didn't seem to understand that Lynx was indicating two powers, not just one. This, combined with his lack of content about Lynx early on, argues that CoA wasn't really reading or understanding the claims Lynx was making in the thread while at the SAME time accusing me of that. I have forgotten that Tiershift didn't have a vote, and I admit I had no idea what Lynx was semi-claiming as his power after lynch. It's my attitude, though, that if someone is assigned a role it's theirs to play the way they want to. I've expressed my reservations about it to Lynx and to everyone, but at the end of the day you just trust someone you think is town or you don't.

To me, CoA has been trying to have the best of both worlds:

1. Asking someone to unvote to prevent "some VI to hammer to 'prove that they're town' and annoy the shit out of everyone." Not realising that everyone on the wagon is there by invitation of Lynx already. Arguing that Lynx should choose when Lynx HAS been choosing. How is this not "trying to look town" and trailing the already established and popular opinion?

2. CoA: "I kinda have only two townreads." Then lists Policy Lynch (yes!) and Krystal Bald (meh) as his two townreads. So... Lynx isn't a townread? That's odd. I could be wrong about Ghato, Ceph, but at least I'm willing to give a reads list that doesn't keep more than half the town open as options for lynch.

3. No real comments on the content I gave in the last week. If I'm his primary scumread, I would think he'd have a TON to say about that. Was it ALL safe? Why no comment on those posts?

These two post excerpts are just awful, too:

Assuming you can communicate after death, which seems to be an ability that some town players have, you use your self-watch tonight. If scum is as afraid of your dead-ability as you think, they will nightkill you, giving you a guilty result that you can communicate to a townie and effectively forcing scum to trade one of them for you, which is a positive outcome for town. If they're not willing to trade, we can always lynch you later for whatever value your death provides.

This would be optimal for scum.

If Lynx is a self-sensor, I think random is the way to go on determining who should vote him.

This would also be optimal for scum.

It's just pinging my scumdar really dramatically. I'm surely capable of being wrong, but I don't think that I am in this case.

[copper223]

@Boo

Hello everyone I know. I would list you out, but I'm afraid

I don't give the requisite number of fucks to do so right now.

-TTH

Gut scumread.

How did you rule out him just being a a very awkward player just in general?

Because you know he likely is based on knowing his alignment and haven't caught up yet on the fact he wants to get lynched?

This isn't my argument. I think they're faking the "mechanic."

Unsubstantiated accusation.

More of a scumread. What Ceph. said in 126 about most of our interaction at the time is similar to my take on it as well, with the caveat that TTH might have been paranoid/pissed about/with me because of previous history.

I'm now on page 7 and I think there's an excellent chance of Bookitty being scum.

-TTH

Less of a scumread because I was expecting this after Boo wrote 164, the fact I mentioned it before TTH's catch-up blunts this.

Ghato offering to be the gatekeeper of information on a power role is not a towntell. If Lynx cannot reliably communicate after death, Ghato's claim is a safe fakeclaim and potentially a source of misinformation for the town. If Lynx's info is made public, Ghato-scum is buying townpoints for the price of manufacturing fake lynx-reads once per day. Lynx is conftown, all other conclusions here are fatally flawed. This is a bad post.

Less of a scumread, if Sthar is scum this is a nice read to throw out there because it neatly debunks Boo's theory of why Ghato is likely town based on his claim, I had not thought about it but it makes it slightly more likely Boo is clearing people unduly (either cause they're mates or cause she knows they are town to begin with), in an unrelated note it also makes it unlikely Ghato and CoA are both scum.

Less of a scumread after reading Boo's

So when we're looking at connections, this is one I want people to notice, please.

because I didn't see how she would think of me and CoA as a scumpair, when she explained what she ment in 598 (about being wishy-washy in particular) this makes more sense but at the time I did not see it.

595 helps me read Boo as more town, so that influences my read on CoA, as Ghato said one bad push on someone they were already likely paranoid about I can accept, but if they're getting it wrong repeatedly it's likely they are doing this because of their alignment.

Reviewing the ISO overall I get some very mild scumtells on Sthar (mainly after reading some of Policy/Ceph's replies) and some town tells from him, I get more scumtells on TTH and she is the one I should know how to read better, so that's why I'm leaning scum on themo overall.

Boo, why doesn't the hydra dissonance tell you used on Policy apply here? It seems to me Sthar and TTH are not really on the same page.

[copper223]

578 and 579 are also good enought to raise some doubt and the first is unanswered.

[Bookitty]

They are on the same page about me. They are on the same page about Policy. They are giving what amount to null reads on a lot of people that can easily be adjusted (remember, only two town reads -- does that mean everyone else is scum? Certainly it is keeping options open). Sthar says he has only the two townreads but his reads post Post 564 doesn't bear that out. A lot of town-leans there.

The hydra dissonance tell isn't nearly so effective once I've mentioned it, which is why I usually keep it to myself. It's relatively easy, however, to see faked versions of it and one thing said in sthar's catch-up really pinged for me. TTH isn't posting, so I have to trust in what he says about her.

Where do you see the major dissonance? TTH hasn't posted a reads list that contrasts with sthar's. Do you think it will?

[Bookitty]

Okay, I've been rereading this for about five minutes because I was certain I must be misreading it. Being conciliatory is a towntell? SERIOUSLY?

You're townreading copper anyway, why is it relevant?
-TTH

It's relevant to my read of TTH/sthar. I already explained why I was paranoid; throwing in a "town-lean cuz LEEDER and conciliatory" (obviously paraphrased) makes me itchy all over, especially when I JUST said I was wary of a connection between CoA and copper. How is that a read? It's like saying I town-read Tiershift because he's a ghost and scummy. What?

It's also relevant to my read on copper. Copper, you said you understood my paranoia. I'd commented the connection I saw (and this is JUST my subjective read, not provable fact) and thought to myself:

CoA attacked copper and then sort of pulled back. That looks like distancing. And then they did the same thing to me... is this trying to muddy the waters? They're pushing my lynch; when I flip town, are they going to use that to clear copper? Um, NO, I'm going to call out that connection now!

I could be wrong. But that's my opinion.

You seriously think I didn't address Post 579, copper? Can you explain this more?

[TierShift]

- Once people started to call him out for it his activity level changed substantially but the questions he was asking implied he wasn't thinking too deeply about what was going on and he kind of role fished on Lynx before commiting to the lynch amd trying to push his vote on the wagon.

Bah, are you using the beetlejuice tell on me?

[Bookitty]

@Copper: Sorry, I fail at reading (at work, distracted, still no excuse). I do see that you only said the first was unanswered now.

[copper223]

@Boo
Fair enough about keeping the read to yourself and it being now watered down.

I see a pretty big difference in TSO (Catastrophe), Sthar claimed TTH had him as town at one point but he wasn't sure before and now they are both scumreading him, TTH says she is leaving that read to Sthar, and he isn't seeing him as town so he must be scum (pretty uninspired read).

I see some difference in their read on me, from what I gather Sthar had me as roughly null to begin with and leaning town after he did the work himself, I do not believe what he said about TTH reaction testing me (so either he did not understand TTH's motives or he is lying about it so they can backpedal).

Do you see where I might have doubts about you because you gave away quite a few town reads (assuming genuine motives in an attempt to help town) based on role mechanics or PM tells (FTL/Tier/Ghato) which is something scum might also do?

You have addressed your scumread on CoA and we can't really say much about Medea (I agree with both of you, from experience Cabd is lurky but when he posts you can get a lot from it, the content in this game from them has been abysmal), it's more the let's make a big town circle part so everyone loves me which holds some weight.

[copper223]

@Tier

Bah, are you using the beetlejuice tell on me?

I've seen it work but not in particular, it's more about you sitting back and collecting townreads for no reason after having what I believe to be a suspect early game, you called those that gave you a town read for your role fools, I'd ask myself if they are scum in your position, where's your suspicion about them attempting to pocket you?

[Bookitty]

Copper, you played with me in that newbie game. Do you remember my starting position about reading people? You argued with me about it, so you should.

I've given reasons for pretty much every one of my townreads. I've invited people to attack my logic and show me where I'm wrong. The nature of how I think about the game from the very start makes it easier for ME to figure out things. I can be wrong, sure, but I'm going to tell you if I think someone is town and why just as much as I would tell you why someone is scummy.

I would like to think that my friends here love me regardless of my alignment or theirs. I certainly don't hate people for drawing scum. I'm sure they didn't mean to. I think Lynx was instrumental in making a big town circle far more effectively than I could ever have done.

@Copper: I'm not going to answer the last question you asked Tiershift. But you could if you read his ISO.

[Bookitty]

@Mod:

Could we please have Faster than Light prodded?

(Not that it did any good for Krystal Bald, though )

[copper223]

@Boo
If I had seen deviations from our newbie game I'd have said so, I think the place where I'm getting my townread on you is pretty obvious, I also said so myself more than once.

In this particular game you are townreading some players for reasons I don't approve of and that's all I've got for the Boo is scum hypothesis, it's the one I've considered more lately because if you are town with me here, then so are most likely Ghato, Tier and possibly even BRantz, so together with the play Lynx made and Policy's claim this game is a cakewalk, it therefore behoves me to carefully consider the case where I'm screwing up with my reads as well.

I'll check to see if I missed something in Tier's ISO.

[Bookitty]

Okay, let's clarify something.

I'm town. That doesn't make me right. I am not asking ANYONE to sheep me on my town reads because (as you can see from FTL sliding to lean scum and you sliding to lesser town) my reads change over time (or instantly, sometimes).

It seems to me that you're correlating being wrong with being scum and being right with being town. And this is an argument I have already had enough of, thank you very much.

[TierShift]

Step 1. Don't blindly trust other people's reads

[copper223]

That's neither here nor there, what I'm considering are possible motives for including people in your town circle for what I consider weak reasons, one possible motive is you genuinely thought it was good logic and missed something, another is you want most of town to like you because of OMGUR and so you can help your scumbuddies by pushing them in the town circle.

[Bookitty]

I've given reasons for all of my townreads, I think. Maybe not Policy Lynch (I honestly can't recall). If you thought it was spurious logic, you should have said so at the time. Certainly others haven't been shy to do so.

Who are the candidates you think I'm pushing into the town circle, please?

And why would all the people you listed be town if I were town, if you're not assuming all my reads are right if I'm town?

Faulty logic is faulty.

[copper223]

I did say so at the time, once with a delay to see if TTH mentioned it first, which BRantz tried to fish, FTL (read has now changed), Tier (obviously), Ghato (I agreed with you unitl Policy and Sthar8 pointed out the flaws).

I would have a stronger read on Ghato, Tier and BRantz not because I'd sheep you (where is that implied?), but because that would confirm some things about their play that would make me personally read them as town, just the fact CoA is very likely scum in this scenario is a big enough reason to townread them.

[TierShift]

That's neither here nor there, what I'm considering are possible motives for including people in your town circle for what I consider weak reasons, one possible motive is you genuinely thought it was good logic and missed something, another is you want most of town to like you because of OMGUR and so you can help your scumbuddies by pushing them in the town circle.

My post was wrt what bookitty was telling you.

You take issue with myself townreading the ones who townread me?

[copper223]

Depends on why you townread them, I already told you m main concerns about you, that post is for Boo.

[TierShift]

Do you want me to address your concerns or are they out there for other people?

[copper223]

By all means go ahead.

[Bookitty]

I would have a stronger read on Ghato, Tier and BRantz not because I'd sheep you (where is that implied?), but because that would confirm some things about their play that would make me personally read them as town, just the fact CoA is very likely scum in this scenario is a big enough reason to townread them.

Okay. Here's where this is breaking down for me.

I think CoA is scum. I've not been shy about that read. You are sort of on the fence.

If I am lynched and flip town (or if I'm proven town by some other method) then would that make CoA scummier for you?

It's another version of being wrong=being scum. It's not good logic there. If you don't think they're scum by play then their being wrong shouldn't be a big factor, should it?

[LynxKuroneko]

We've got a day left, right? Everyone suggest 7 (SEVEN) players to be on my wagon, starting with most town-read. Doesn't have to be a paragraph explanation for each. Simple summation will do. This doesn't apply to Krystal obviously, because they aren't interested in playing much. I'll make a final decision from there. Over. Yay, forcing players to provide input and put themselves out there for the good of mankind! (Or for this town at least.)