Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[copper223]

You missed the

there

preposition, I'm talking of his readlists in 573, particularly post 111. His readlist now shows he doesn't have much of a clue, if you want to call it horrible fine, but not that he is hiding something or trying to be apologetic about it. I already had a close look at his town game playing scum against him and this is it, I had to check if he can mimic his towngame well as scum and he can't.

[Heartless]

'mkay...

so how does the fact that the game you cited was his first time as scum factor into this meta analysis?

[copper223]

I can see him getting better at it, but the differential is pretty big and people don't change their traits, I'd say Aneninen doesn't like playing scum, it's stressful for him and it shows, this will likely never change although it will be harder to spot the more he gets used to it.

[Heartless]

...

[dodgy56]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

If dave is town: could self hammer for not caring - bad.
If dave is scum: could self hammer very early giving us less information than if we had lynched him a week later. Its good that we lynch a scum, but we could have gotten a lot more information if we lynched him a week later. Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.
He would hammer himself as scum to end the day before any more information can be gained, such as how he interacts with the other players, accidental slips, etc.

i can understand the conclusion you draw if he is town. I understand the conclusion you draw if he is scum but he would only do that if there was no chance he was avoiding lynch or any other viable candidate is his buddy.
You could be a potential candidate for someone who could take the lynch lead from him.
But none of that is what i really take issue with.
what i take issue with, is why you chose to state teh

especially if he is scum

. If you are town lynching scum is never a downside. and you should be more worried about him hammering if he is town than if he is scum, yet you choose to mention the "if he is scum" in your quantifying statement.

Does anyone else find that off or is it just me?

@ ANYONE NOT VOTING EYESTOTT.

Please answer the question i ask here and explain to me how eyestott is thinking as town because i just dont see it.

[Tean Samargo]

@BlueBloodedToffee

Well, I would say that Killa’s defensiveness means that he’s more concerned about maintaining his image. I don’t like a lot of his posts. I don’t consider him to be hunting scum. His “reads” seem more influenced by salt, seeing as how me and eyestott are easily listed as scum (and what a coincidence! We both voted for him). Oh, and my favorite part was when he blatantly threatened that "things wouldn't end up well" if I continued voting for him.

@copper

Do you mean that last discussion or their interaction in general?

@penwin

Opinions on mastin? I don’t like how people are practically idolizing her and her actions. I think most of her actions are cryptic as fuck, and I'm not sure why some people are blindly following her

@Dav

@dav
The point of my case against you dav is that you have been floating around the forum posting nearly daily and yet your strongest read is simply a 'mixed' read. While I'm not asking for a super strong 'that man is scum' read, I find it suspicious that you don't even have a weak scum read. It is as if you weren't really looking for scum until that point. That in my opinion is pretty dang scummy.

This is partly accurate and partly completely wrong. Your observation on activity is quite accurate. I have been active, in this thread or elsewhere, pretty much constantly when I have free time. There were a couple of times I would have wanted to post more in-depth (Thursday morning and Saturday morning) but could not because of RL obligations.

The completely wrong part is the interpretation of why my reads are useless, and even more so the analysis of what that means for alignment. If I were scum, I could toss out accusations willy nilly and pick one that sticks. It would even be beneficial for my team to toss weak scum reads in the direction of my teammates, and buddy the heck out of a couple of town to cast suspicion on them. I'm not taking the easy route -- that should tell you something.

By your own admission, you weren't thinking rationally at that time. In that state, I'm not sure that you'd be making the optimal scum plays regardless in that state.

-Faustbyte

[copper223]

@Tean
If there is a difference for you I'd like to hear about it, otherwise their interaction in general

@All
Eyes is purposely not posting in this game at L-2 and I don't like it.

[beastcharizard]

I could get behind an eyesott lynch. I don't like their logic at all.

[Wickedestjr]

Wow a lot of new posts. I've just finished reading everything, but it's late and I won't have time to post anything of value - there are a lot of posts I have marked to comment on. And I also still plan to update my reads given all the recent activity. Hopefully I can get this done asap tomorrow.

I was happy to see a few players contributing more - these last few pages are going to help me develop my reads. Unhappy to see that vettrock and beastcharizard have yet to contribute.

I still don't like this eyestott bandwagon. Is he at L-2 or L-1? Please don't lynch him. I'll try to encourage a better alternative.

[Jackal711]

Prodding

vettrock

[Jackal711]

VOTE COUNT 1.7

killapenwin (0) -
BlueBloodedToffee (0) -
eyestott (5) - dodgy56, BlueBloodedToffee, davesaz, Mastin2, killapenwin
Heartless (0) -
davesaz (3) -Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott
copper223 (1) - Heartless
vettrock (0) -
Aneninen (0) -
dodgy56 (1) - vettrock
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
beastcharizard (0) -
Tean Samargo (2) - Aneninen
mastin2 (0) - copper223

Not Voting:

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Monday, January 19th at 2:00 pm PST which is in (expired on 2015-01-19 14:00:00)

[mastin2]

You asking TTH if Mastin's outburst is town, when you clearly did the same thing and hinted that it was faked "for strategical reasons" and then self consciously adding that you shouldn't be read as town for it...

Which tells you...

what

about Dave, exactly?

ESPECIALLY since I have been pushing him?

(Btw, in case you're wondering, I have doubts about dodgy/eyestott being scum theater and lean against it, with dodgy being town and one of my weaker townreads wrong, to be visited at a date in the near-future. However, estott-dave on the other hand......

there

is an interaction I find

quite

interesting.)

[mastin2]

However, if you can engage BBT and tell him things like "FUCK YOUR "no meta" POLICY, GO READ LITERALLY ANY FUCKING GODDAMNED MASTOWN GAME YOU PIECE OF SHIT." then I would think you can drop a quick sentence or two saying "this is the newbscumtell dave's dropping."

Wrong

.

You don't know the way my brain is wired. You just dont'. If you tinkt at I'd have that sort of thought. It's not that simple. The da ve read is...how do I explain it? The ndave read is important. It's a builtup thingymajiggy. I hold it close to me. Like a cheesy shonen protagonist charging up an attack. And then I release it all out at once mentally. That's how it works. In contrast, I can converse, and make meaningless blows with, my opponent for free all the time, e.g. read the damn game and give commentary. But actually making ~impact~? Actually putting force behind the punch? No, I'm the hero, I don't do that sort of thing so wildly. That's...not a good way of describing it. At all. Even remotely. But it should give you the vaguest ideas of how my brian is wired. When I say that I have no time...I fucking mean I hav e no time.

I DO give reasons a plenty. My commentary in-thread as I go along. I'll quote stuff, give my input on it. That's just what I do. That's me giving stuff. Because that's just how I work. How I operate. My mind has been so saturated with town PMs that I just...I just can't put that effort in without that strong drive and lack of time means lack of drive. It's like...to continue the metaphor, the hero has fought so many enemies, that as THE hero, they're basically one of the strongest beings in the universe, and as such, they...they just don't put their heart into fights unless needed.

[mastin2]

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN. MASTIN.

mastin...
...she's not going to get this

Yes, but YOU should.
And you know all too damn fucking well what I'm talking about. You have your lurking, rather lack thereof amongst others. (There's more towntells to you than just that, btw.) I have my own, too.

[mastin2]

You don't know the way my brain is wired. You just dont'. If you tinkt at I'd have that sort of thought. It's not that simple. The da ve read is...how do I explain it? The ndave read is important. It's a builtup thingymajiggy. I hold it close to me. Like a cheesy shonen protagonist charging up an attack. And then I release it all out at once mentally. That's how it works. In contrast, I can converse, and make meaningless blows with, my opponent for free all the time, e.g. read the damn game and give commentary. But actually making ~impact~? Actually putting force behind the punch? No, I'm the hero, I don't do that sort of thing so wildly. That's...not a good way of describing it. At all. Even remotely. But it should give you the vaguest ideas of how my brian is wired. When I say that I have no time...I fucking mean I hav e no time.

I DO give reasons a plenty. My commentary in-thread as I go along. I'll quote stuff, give my input on it. That's just what I do. That's me giving stuff. Because that's just how I work. How I operate. My mind has been so saturated with town PMs that I just...I just can't put that effort in without that strong drive and lack of time means lack of drive. It's like...to continue the metaphor, the hero has fought so many enemies, that as THE hero, they're basically one of the strongest beings in the universe, and as such, they...they just don't put their heart into fights unless needed.

I thought of a better way to say it. In my games, the worst part is the mental fortitude, the endurance, the willpower. I get paranoid, I get apathetic, I self-doubt, second-guess, and whatnot. I procrastinate, I say "not that important", I neglect the game by not giving it my full, all because of that lack of gathered willpower. And that's the time I'm talking about lacking. I have...issues...sucking it up, taking a deep breath, and jumping off the ledge to plunge. That leap is something that doesn't come easily--it takes willpower, willpower that takes me time to gather. So when I say that I don't have the time, what I'm really saying is that I have the time to play, but I don't have the time to play as I SHOULD be playing, if that makes sense.

[eyestott]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

If dave is town: could self hammer for not caring - bad.
If dave is scum: could self hammer very early giving us less information than if we had lynched him a week later. Its good that we lynch a scum, but we could have gotten a lot more information if we lynched him a week later. Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.
He would hammer himself as scum to end the day before any more information can be gained, such as how he interacts with the other players, accidental slips, etc.

i can understand the conclusion you draw if he is town. I understand the conclusion you draw if he is scum but he would only do that if there was no chance he was avoiding lynch or any other viable candidate is his buddy.
You could be a potential candidate for someone who could take the lynch lead from him.
But none of that is what i really take issue with.
what i take issue with, is why you chose to state teh

especially if he is scum

. If you are town lynching scum is never a downside. and you should be more worried about him hammering if he is town than if he is scum, yet you choose to mention the "if he is scum" in your quantifying statement.

Does anyone else find that off or is it just me?

Yeah, my especially was because:
You mentioned me scumreading him in the post i quoted
I was scumreading him.
Make sense?

[eyestott]

@All
Eyes is purposely not posting in this game at L-2 and I don't like it.

To be honest, Ive been doing housework for most of the day, and Ive already said all that I can to explain myself.

[eyestott]

Okay, so, I'm a tracker.
If youre going to lynch me, do it now. At least when I show up town, youll start actually suspecting dodgy. He is acting very different to my game with him, and he knows what i'm like as scum, and that my play is not like my scum game with him.
Mastin is a slight scumread. Contrary to what she said, she hadnt really explained her scumread on me. the closest she came to it was

In general, Dodgy/Eyestott, the conversation around those posts: Dodgy gives me town-vibes. Eyestott gives me scum-vibes.

Basically, this.

In fact, I think I can get a fairly good readslist going. Copper/BBT/Aneninen are all basically my "just below Wicked and beast"-tiered town right now since they're seeing a lot of the stuff I am.

I feel that people are townreading mastin because she's mastin.
Besides, mastin was scumreading Heartless when she herself was being inactive (with good reason).
Dave is still a scumread, but Id rather now have my vote on dodgy. He is just completely different to what ive seen from him. I'm resigned to my fate, as dodgy's points actually look convincing to the general masses, but he knows that i'm playing completely different to my game with him.
VOTE: dodgy. I legitimately believe all of the points ive made, and would have made those points regardless of alignment.
If anyone actually wants to talk to me, Ill do so.

[dodgy56]

@eyes you are missing the point. if you were scum reading him, the concern of him hammering as scum is irrelevant.. explain to me how lynching a scum is ever not in the town's interest? You claim that it means we cant gain more information? as far as i can see that is the only downside to the town if he hammers himself. BUT that downside IN NO WAY AT ALL outweighs the fact that we lynch a scum in that scenario. your concerns are ok - ie i see the points you are making- i just dont see how they comes from a town perspective.

the real downside that a townie should have been concerned about is what happens if he hammers himself as town. THAT IS A MAJOR DOWNSIDE- no arguments about that. the fact you were scum reading him is not all that relevant. and here is why. Even if you were scum reading him you have to consider the fact he might be town. If you do so you would see the far bigger downside i mentioned here. OR if you dont consider that possibility it means that you are so certain that he is scum. And if that is the case it brings us back to the Question of why you didnt vote him to L-1.

can other people please weigh in on this?

@wicked you dont like the lynch im pushing. so clearly you seem to think that eyestott is town. Please explain to me how town eyestott sincerely believes what he is saying here?

[eyestott]

@eyes you are missing the point. if you were scum reading him, the concern of him hammering as scum is irrelevant.. explain to me how lynching a scum is ever not in the town's interest? You claim that it means we cant gain more information? as far as i can see that is the only downside to the town if he hammers himself. BUT that downside IN NO WAY AT ALL outweighs the fact that we lynch a scum in that scenario. your concerns are ok - ie i see the points you are making- i just dont see how they comes from a town perspective.

the real downside that a townie should have been concerned about is what happens if he hammers himself as town. THAT IS A MAJOR DOWNSIDE- no arguments about that. the fact you were scum reading him is not all that relevant. and here is why. Even if you were scum reading him you have to consider the fact he might be town. If you do so you would see the far bigger downside i mentioned here. OR if you dont consider that possibility it means that you are so certain that he is scum. And if that is the case it brings us back to the Question of why you didnt vote him to L-1.

can other people please weigh in on this?

@wicked you dont like the lynch im pushing. so clearly you seem to think that eyestott is town. Please explain to me how town eyestott sincerely believes what he is saying here?

Its not irrelevant, and i understand and agree that its a good thing on a whole. I never said that a scumdave lynch was bad. Never. I just explained that it would be better if it were further through the day.
And I never said that town dave hammering himself wasnt a major downside. I just didnt say especially before it. I DO see the far bigger downside.

[dodgy56]

@eyes you are missing the point. if you were scum reading him, the concern of him hammering as scum is irrelevant.. explain to me how lynching a scum is ever not in the town's interest? You claim that it means we cant gain more information? as far as i can see that is the only downside to the town if he hammers himself. BUT that downside IN NO WAY AT ALL outweighs the fact that we lynch a scum in that scenario. your concerns are ok - ie i see the points you are making- i just dont see how they comes from a town perspective.

the real downside that a townie should have been concerned about is what happens if he hammers himself as town. THAT IS A MAJOR DOWNSIDE- no arguments about that. the fact you were scum reading him is not all that relevant. and here is why. Even if you were scum reading him you have to consider the fact he might be town. If you do so you would see the far bigger downside i mentioned here. OR if you dont consider that possibility it means that you are so certain that he is scum. And if that is the case it brings us back to the Question of why you didnt vote him to L-1.

can other people please weigh in on this?

@wicked you dont like the lynch im pushing. so clearly you seem to think that eyestott is town. Please explain to me how town eyestott sincerely believes what he is saying here?

Its not irrelevant, and i understand and agree that its a good thing on a whole. I never said that a scumdave lynch was bad. Never. I just explained that it would be better if it were further through the day.
And I never said that town dave hammering himself wasnt a major downside. I just didnt say especially before it. I DO see the far bigger downside.

ok so you choose to say "especially even if he is scum" and discuss the scum dave downside without mentioning the town dave downside at the time even though you understand that the far bigger downside is if he is town? and say that because you are scum-reading him?

i honestly cant wrap my head around that logic. this discussion isnt getting us anywhere though. i cant understand that point of view as town (hell im struggling to understand why a scum would use the logic you just displayed- the only thing i can think of is that you are trying to justify your actions after the fact.)

if im reading this wrong i need someone to explain to me the town point of view of eyestott's logic. unless that happens or we somehow get a confirmed scum my vote isnt moving

[eyestott]

Look, dodgy. Remember my decision to not vote Alcester, and specifically mention why I did so? And how, even though it wasn't actually a scum tell, it got me lynched? That showed that I often have opinions about theory that don't correlate with the general populous, regardless of alignment.
Do you realise the same thing is happening?

[dodgy56]

Look, dodgy. Remember my decision to not vote Alcester, and specifically mention why I did so? And how, even though it wasn't actually a scum tell, it got me lynched? That showed that I often have opinions about theory that don't correlate with the general populous, regardless of alignment.
Do you realise the same thing is happening?

i dont recall specifically? but what does that prove as such? you cant really argue you do those things as town based of that as you were scum in that game. whats the point of the analogy? what are you hoping to prove?

[eyestott]

I'm saying, Even though i was scum, I was ultimately lynched because of something I wouldve said as both alignments.
I said that in the AAR, where I have absolutely no reason to lie.
I'm saying that I'm being voted in this game because I have an opinion differing from the rest of the town, and am being scumread because of it.

[copper223]

FML with these early claims, remove your votes from Eyes.