Mini 1624: Joss Whedon Mafia: The Musical (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, read through. Nacho, Wtf? I don't have a read on you. I'm trying to develop one. I'm interacting with you. I'm questioning you. Why the heck is it a problem that I don't have a read now. It is not like I put you in the null pile and stopped interacting or trying to develop a read. I can't give you reads that I don't have. Also, wtf is up with your scumread on me this game. You KNOW my scumgame and you know I can't fake this level of play. I can forgive people who have no idea how I play suspecting me but I think you would have noticed all of the things that make me town. I feel like you are stonewalling me like you did in Mentor and Mentee and kept saying that I needed to give you a coherent thought process when I was doing everything I can to scumhunt to the best of my ability. And I'm hardly comfortable with you and Ffery being alive this late into the game with the IC alive as well and saying me and Antihero are scum. And Ffery should know why it bothers me but it feels like she's stonewalling me as well.

I've played with Antihero before. I've seen what his towngame and scumgame look like. He's easy as all fuck to read and I don't understand why you are not seeing that. I don't understand why you are not seeing that I'm town here.

[Murder of Crows]

@ Nacho, I'll get to your posts in a bit.

@ Ffery, what is your hydra's stance on Nacho? You claim that he is town and AP says that he is scum and I'm not understanding where you are at this point. Also, do you see my point about why I felt you would understand my townread on Antihero?

If my town read doesn't trump AP's paranoia, there will be words.

I do understand your basis for townreading Antihero. It's part of the reason I rethought his day 1 play on day 2, though mostly it was Anti himself who changed my mind.

[Murder of Crows]

Wait why did I assume that was AP
ffery can be cultured too
Sorry ffery!

You were right, but we're both here right now.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

You can ride too.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

"I don't have a read on you".

[Murder of Crows]

Okay, read through. Nacho, Wtf? I don't have a read on you. I'm trying to develop one. I'm interacting with you. I'm questioning you. Why the heck is it a problem that I don't have a read now. It is not like I put you in the null pile and stopped interacting or trying to develop a read. I can't give you reads that I don't have. Also, wtf is up with your scumread on me this game. You KNOW my scumgame and you know I can't fake this level of play. I can forgive people who have no idea how I play suspecting me but I think you would have noticed all of the things that make me town. I feel like you are stonewalling me like you did in Mentor and Mentee and kept saying that I needed to give you a coherent thought process when I was doing everything I can to scumhunt to the best of my ability. And I'm hardly comfortable with you and Ffery being alive this late into the game with the IC alive as well and saying me and Antihero are scum.

And Ffery should know why it bothers me but it feels like she's stonewalling me as well.

I've played with Antihero before. I've seen what his towngame and scumgame look like. He's easy as all fuck to read and I don't understand why you are not seeing that. I don't understand why you are not seeing that I'm town here.

I'm not stonewalling you and I don't know why you think I am? I've stepped back because I thought maybe your convo with AP would be more productive than the pointless circles we've gone around. I said that was what I was going to do?

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

oh shit and finally #12!

F-16:

First of all, I am afraid of F-16 as a town player more than I am any other player on the site. I am afraid of him because I think he's been making a name for himself in the mafia world pretty recently but the splash as a whole has been fantastic. I also think that out of all players on the site currently, he probably has the best ability to consistently read me + get me lynched as scum. I think that Empire/others like him weakness in reading me is not playing with me and underestimating my enjoyment level for scum as a whole. I think Tammy's weakness in reading me is that she gives me way way way too much room when she's scumreading me and plays it off to paranoia or "I can read him better on later days". I think mollie's weakness in reading me is that she's too easy to read when townreading versus scumreading me. I think ffery's problem with reading me is giving me too much room in making bad (but necessary) reads when scum. F-16 doesn't have any of those problems + has a lovely sense of competition with me that fuels him to fool/find me whenever possible and generally doesn't pull punches in game despite mistakes in the past. I think when he's on his town game, he has a stronger drive to solve the game than any player that I've ever seen and emotionally gets involved with lynches in a way that causes extremely hard resets whenever he mislynches and a much greater momentum and voice in thread when he lynches correctly. I also love the way he takes in information and readjusts as a result: one of those all-star games that hold a special place in my heart is Wicked Mafia which was a unique and awesome moment to see his internal thought process and how he takes feedback. He's one of those few rare jewels of people who are actually fantastic at taking advice and it's been fun as hell to watch his progress as a player based on what other people have told him about his play.

Do you see why I have a serious problem with that statement? Or do you think I lied in my own GTKAS?

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

Did you see my response to your Antihero read?
The proper response to that is not "I've seen antihero's games both ways and it's just obvious as fuck".

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

Do you remember Bork? Do you remember when he steamrolled an entire fucking town because they underestimated him in the way you are doing now?

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

If you think Antihero is town and you actually have reasons for him being town, post them and defend your town read. If you don't, stop wasting my time.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, read through. Nacho, Wtf? I don't have a read on you. I'm trying to develop one. I'm interacting with you. I'm questioning you. Why the heck is it a problem that I don't have a read now. It is not like I put you in the null pile and stopped interacting or trying to develop a read. I can't give you reads that I don't have. Also, wtf is up with your scumread on me this game. You KNOW my scumgame and you know I can't fake this level of play. I can forgive people who have no idea how I play suspecting me but I think you would have noticed all of the things that make me town. I feel like you are stonewalling me like you did in Mentor and Mentee and kept saying that I needed to give you a coherent thought process when I was doing everything I can to scumhunt to the best of my ability. And I'm hardly comfortable with you and Ffery being alive this late into the game with the IC alive as well and saying me and Antihero are scum.

And Ffery should know why it bothers me but it feels like she's stonewalling me as well.

I've played with Antihero before. I've seen what his towngame and scumgame look like. He's easy as all fuck to read and I don't understand why you are not seeing that. I don't understand why you are not seeing that I'm town here.

I'm not stonewalling you and I don't know why you think I am? I've stepped back because I thought maybe your convo with AP would be more productive than the pointless circles we've gone around. I said that was what I was going to do?

I thought that some of AP's latest posts were yours ignoring mine. Disregard this. My bad.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Do you see why I have a serious problem with that statement? Or do you think I lied in my own GTKAS?

Um, okay. What does that have to do with anything. Did you see my own GTKAS about the depth of your scumplay? Then you'd see why it is not easy as hell to read you.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bork was different. I had never played with Bork before Tales as far as I could recall. And I'm going to explain my townread on Antihero with links and quotes and everything later tonight or tomorrow so hold on for that.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

You should all read SleepyKrew's GTKAS. And maybe ask a question or two!

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

F-16, do you see why I'm bothered in this game?

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

I don't want you to explain your read on Antihero more. I want you to talk about mine and why I am wrong. And I want you to form a read on me.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

OH MY GOD F16 POSTED IN MY GTKAS

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Ugh, I kinda feel you wouldn't pull the "look at my GTKAS" card as scum unless you are going for a whole new level of manipulation. There's something I need to in a bit so this will be quick but I'm going through your ISO backwards for your Antihero read and I'll comment on that before I go.

[serrapaladin]

Can we just lynch egg?

@mod: how do a hypothetical strongman and a hypothetical lightning rod interact?

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

SERRA
Eight point plan
Follow the plan man

[Bulbazak]

@mod: how do a hypothetical strongman and a hypothetical lightning rod interact?

If the strongman is performing the kill, then the target of the lightning rod dies.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This was mostly SleepyKrew posting I think but I'll start here.

ONE
Antihero's scum meta is to lurk
Remember that shit

It is not that simple. While I tend to factor in activity while reading a player, activity is not the end-all of my read. My most surefire tell for Antihero is that as town, he comes across cocky and confident and like he genuinely believes what he is saying. Serum and Steel where he was town was a poignant example of that. You can see how he pushes Ffery's hydra and later Cephrir's alt with genuine conviction. His early reads here as well as his later disbelief of Boon's claim and reads matches up with what I expect. His push on Murder

doesn't

match the strength of his push on Pixel in Serum and Steel so I could potentially see Ffery worrying about that. What she missed though is that meta is progressive: if you pushed hard on someone in previous game and they are town, you wouldn't push as hard now. It worried me because Ffery is the one from whom I learned to look for progressive patterns (see how Ffery townreads Bork/Tammy for trying to avoid a confrontation in Mafia on the Air)? She understands that they are trying to move past their conflicts as opposed to recreate them and that's why they were town. I've noticed the observation to be true in general i.e. scumbuddies of average competence try to recreate how they play as town whereas town progresses to new interactions.

TWO
Antihero was lurking hardcore earlier

So? And he was lurking sitewide. He even made a post where he complained that he's burnt out from mafia.

THREE
"But Antihero stopped lurking!"
Well, that's debatable. His activity has definitely died down again. And it only spiked because we CALLED HIM OUT ON BEING A SCUMMY LURKFUCK

But the way he has posted when he actually has been active felt very townish.

(it's not actually up for debate)

This is kind of a lame point. One of the problems I have with Eyestott is that he so easily buys your case hook, line, and sinker.

FOUR
"Antihero admitted that lurking is a scumtell for him! That's sooooo town."
yeah just shut the fuck up Greg

I never said he was town because he admitted lurking is a scumtell. This is a pre-emptive argument, not a positive one.

FIVE
"But Antihero has real life or something!"
didn't stop him from recently joining two hydra games

FIVE.FIVE
"He said he's going to be more of a secondary head in those games!"
That was part of his response, yes. It didn't prove anything to me. You're not going to sign up to pay attention to two more games if you can't handle the one you're currently in.

This is a fair point but hydra games are still different from solo games. By itself, it doesn't convince me.

SIX
He overreacted

hard

to point five. He accused us of stalking him throughout the site to try to find shit on him, when really it was just remembering seeing Heartless sign up for a couple of games recently.

This one is more objectively bad than scummy

, but I'll throw it in.

SEVEN
His weak-ass attempt at AtE now.

Where? And I'm not seeing the weakass ATE attempts. I'm seeing more of the same confidence in his Boon push.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Can we just lynch egg?

@mod: how do a hypothetical strongman and a hypothetical lightning rod interact?

The only people I'm confident are town are you and Antihero. Which leaves two scum in {JBVTB, Murder, Eye, Egg, and Boon}. I still need time to figure out where to go with that. Nacho and Ffery are the two crucial reads that I want to nail down because my understanding of the gamestate depends on figuring them out. Where are you currently at with reads?

[Murder of Crows]

This was mostly SleepyKrew posting I think but I'll start here.

ONE
Antihero's scum meta is to lurk
Remember that shit

It is not that simple. While I tend to factor in activity while reading a player, activity is not the end-all of my read. My most surefire tell for Antihero is that as town, he comes across cocky and confident and like he genuinely believes what he is saying. Serum and Steel where he was town was a poignant example of that. You can see how he pushes Ffery's hydra and later Cephrir's alt with genuine conviction. His early reads here as well as his later disbelief of Boon's claim and reads matches up with what I expect. His push on Murder

doesn't

match the strength of his push on Pixel in Serum and Steel so I could potentially see Ffery worrying about that. What she missed though is that meta is progressive: if you pushed hard on someone in previous game and they are town, you wouldn't push as hard now. It worried me because Ffery is the one from whom I learned to look for progressive patterns (see how Ffery townreads Bork/Tammy for trying to avoid a confrontation in Mafia on the Air)? She understands that they are trying to move past their conflicts as opposed to recreate them and that's why they were town. I've noticed the observation to be true in general i.e. scumbuddies of average competence try to recreate how they play as town whereas town progresses to new interactions.

This is true, but my comments in the Mafia of the Air game were mostly directed at selling my reads rather than developing them. I knew Tammy/you were town because we were masons. And bork pointing me right at his argument with Tammy when I joined the game looked soooooo town-bork.

Anyway, Anti wasn't moving forward in his read-development on me on day 1 IMO. There was no hesitance or effort to look deeper and figure me out. He just scumbinned me and then proceeded to push someone else.

[jesusbuddhavrishnathebest]

Look, I really don't care which of you is doing the posting and I don't put any effort into figuring it out unless its obvious. Looking at your ISO, it took you guys like 19 posts before you finally made a post with any amount of worthwhile content. Your ISO is littered with fragments of nothingness, dissonance, and trolling in general. I stopped giving a shit about trying to untangle anything from you guys after a while except for things that were super stand-out like Nacho writing a freaking 8 paragraph essay about my slot. If you want to be taken seriously, don't be a part of a 3-headed hydra that posts a ton of throwaway one-liners and spends time talking about their own posting gimmicvs.

So while your post is all emotional and makes sense and all, it'd be fantastic if you guys could actually make an effort to be more unified and coherent and not just drop off all at the same time.

First off, I have zero control over what my partners are doing in this game. All I can do is yell at them, and tell them to stop posting the way the are and yell at them (specifically svrew) to make content. It isn't fair to say "don't be a part of the spamdra" stuff because I have done a considerable amount of content, and practically every post I mave is either content, or an effort to produce content via interactions with others.

Understand this. I, Ms marangal, have done zero spamming. I have given zero trash posting, and understand that even though we are a hydra, we have individual voices and individual thoughts and that we've kept the worst of our dissonance outside of this thread. We have made the effort to be unified all the while, veeping our own individual thoughts and beliefs. I've put a ton of effort in this game, and I tried to not post a shit-ton because if I did, we could have probably very easily have at least a 100 more post than we currently have

Can I just say this? You, of all people are complaining about the fact that we've posted a shit ton when, D1 you've basically done the exact same thing. You of all people should know that posting alot isn't spamming and you should know that I, as a person don't spam. I as a person don't generally do a ton of stream of thought posting and I'm always worving to progress the game. We even just finished talving about how, while the other two spammed, I sure as hell didn't.

Vay, so all we've done is trash posting, yet at the same time you've pointed out that we have done some content stuff? Don't just say this kind of shit when it's obvious that we've done way, way more than spam and trash posting especially when we've put so much of our effort and time and energy in this game, more so than over half of this playerlist. all this will accomplish is me getting ridiculously upset.

Ok, I guess it's fair to want more unification I guess, but you of all people should vnow that, while we often try, it isn't alway possible to be completely unified. Dissonance is going to happen and our dissonance here wasn't even that bad. We've done some jerv stuff and really, our dissonance was on a few players. Rarely would I ever go behind either of these guys's back just to get what I want unless it's something I really, really believe needs to happen and/or there is a lack of time. Hell, I even texted nacho when I pushed and lynched cabd while he was at work so he vnew what was going on.

Fucv off. Just fucv off, literally. You calling us spammers while we have made content, while you yourself havn't really done alot this game, and left ffery alone for quite a while doesn't really give you the means to judge my post, and my content and the passion I've spent on this game. I guess it's fair to point out that we all dropped off at once but it was during the holidays, and we all have a shit ton of real life shit going on. Still do, really.

Fucv off.