Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[vettrock]

658 - Vettrock, why is Anen town? Why am I town?

Are you seriously suggesting you left an RVS vote on Dodgy all this time? Even as his wagon was building you didn't think to take your RSV vote off? Hmm, I think I'd like to lynch you.

Why is tean town? Why is Heartless scum?

I am using the one sided meta which I know is bad in my determination of you (BBT) and Aneniem, but it is what I have to go off for now.

Did I leave my RVS vote on dodgy this whole time. Yes. Mostly due to me not having as much time to play, and that I didn't have any better prospects.

I will say all of my reads are weak reads with the exception of eyestott, who I'm putt fairly solidly on the town side. It is partially by POE and partially initial feeling.

[vettrock]

VET'S reads list is nothing short of heinous and scummy as shit

I will somewhat agree with heinous, but not scummy. Some people are good with D1 reads and digesting massive amount of information quickly, but I'm not one of those people. I'll continue to provide input, and I should have some more time now for some analysis.

(Honestly, as a vig I'd frankly just no-kill and play as if vanilla unless I deemed it necessary to make a kill.)

I general I agree with this, and how I would play it, especially early in the game. I think you are more likely to help scum than town. Late in the game however there may be a good case to use it.

tth's internet crush is scum, btw

For reference, who is tth's internet crush?

I'm not a good one for informationless RVS cases, but I think I can contribute more as we move along.

yet you voted me on no information?

My vote on you was an RVS vote. Its only purpose is to get the game moving. As RVS votes move around information is created.

perhaps i misunderstood you when you said you werent a good one for informationless rvs cases? i read that as you saying youre not a fan of RVS voting. or did you mean something else?

Since I didn't really answer this. I acknowledge RVS is a necessary part of the game. I have a hard time building any kind of a case or putting things together early in the game as I don't think there is much to go off of. I'd ideally start in D2, but the problem with replacing in, is you are replacing in with an existing history, which I don't really like either.

i was talking about copper, i was yanking his and tth's chain though.
this is your idea of analysis? commenting on an off-the-cuff comment from mastin about a hypothetical vig question and asking about a joke i made on page 2?

This is me reviewing the thread and commenting one the parts I didn't understand or had thoughts on.

[copper223]

@Heartless
Here's my reply to your case, which I will give you props, you at least bothered to make.

the interactions w/ this hydra (between me and tth) alone is pretty sketch because the progression is nonsensical and the disparity between the treatment of the heads is strikingly random. he was scumreading me Post 469 for reasons that were pretty much, "i don't like him and his posting style" and, specifically, he didn't like how i was pushing you because he viewed your line of questioning as something valid, so OBVIOUSLY he put some kind of credence into your opinion

There are two things here I never said and you should tell me how you reached these conclusion:

- I have no particular like or dislike of your posting style, nor do I like or dislike any posting style (maybe I'm not a big fan of giant walls one after the other) so this has nothing to do with how I viewed you early game, which was characterized by that associative read Dave dropped on you in lieu of any actual content from you guys, so why do you think I do?

- OBVIOUSLY is not very obvious to me, my own opinion of the matter is that asking you to contribute can only be seen as townie or neutral, the fact you were scumreading her for it and went on whining about why she picked you in particular instead of going on the Dodgy/Eyes theatre was also strange, as if you can only point out one thing at a time, so I did not like that post and I said so, this is not directly connected to Mastin's alignment so why do you make the connection?

things change. somehow when she puts a bib on him and starts the spoonfeeding
,your reads actually DON'T track so great anymore and the whole "this is mastin-town's meta" fantasy that we were hearing about earlier in the game burns to the ground RIGHT quick.

I had an early townlean on Mastin because she was or gave the appearance of scumhunting, I also thought and still think her Dave read has merit, it is either a good effort from a townie or a nice wagon for scum to pick. TTH's point about Mastin not hesitating to go on the Eyestott wagon was something I myself missed, having played some games with TTH from the scumside I respect her reads a lot so "why not follow her and see where this goes" where my thoughts at the time. Mastin btw you still haven't replied to that post.

hell, for all that, the interactions w/ tth aren't great either. more than anything all he did was slam the breaks on pushing me once he saw her coming. for the lip service about how he thought she was town, there's not much actual cooperation going, and any questioning is fairly superficial and doesn't have any follow up (see: thoughts on dave and eyestott vs dodgy). she went through the trouble of hashing out her townreads in Post 504 and copper doesn't seem to give two shits. what was it, didn't want to pick on someone his own size? b/c the dynamic i'm seeing RIGHT NOW between two people who are supposed to have a rapport from previous games is pretty goddamn dysfunctional and it looks like he's afraid of her because all the interactions are about as deep as a dime.

TTH is town to me if her cases make sense, I have watched your SK game and think I have some idea of how she plays as scum and this level of deep analysis about Mastin and the unique read she gave about Dodgy/Eyes being both town, when the common read floating around was to call them both scummy (either as you did in concert, or sheeping my read that they both looked scummy for different reasons) is to me indicative of her town game, I think supporting her on Mastin to see where that led is more than proof enough about me trying to interact with my townreads, if she is not here to play I can't interact with her live, that is true, also that I'm afraid to pick on good players, you know shit...

he rxn to the eyestott claim in Post 549 is also very NOT town b/c it overplays the indignation about an "early" claim and the needless "FML" stands in HUGE contrast to this whole "logic-y" persona that's been going the whole game. coppers been on him nearly the whole game, but somehow he now wants to look at me and argue that MAYBE IN THE VERY SMALL WINDOW OF TIME BETWEEN NOW AND DEADLINE he was going to change his mind and ease up off eyestott which is disingenuous at best.

This is not a bad point, I made that comment because I was annoyed about a possible PR outing D1, I think it's true it's unlikely I would have let on Eyes before the end of D1 because to me if you are active on the forum and ignoring a particular thread when you have every interest to post your thoughts your are likely hiding something and that is scum indicaitve, this is my problem now, in the absence of a cc I logic suggests I believe Eyestott, but that means at least some of my previous reads are wrong, I think you can see the re-evaluation going on. If you look at the period of time in question I think you can see genuine emotion from me, I also disagree about being a logic driven player only.

...and for his apparent distaste for my glibness to mastin, he seems to gave gotten the art of potshot attacks perfected. case in point, Post 713 re: anen. a while back, i got taken
down
to
clown
town
and told that anen WAS SO BEAUTIFULLY TOWN because of style from two previous games (one of which he wasn't even there for). what did it take for this journey to meta never-never land to go to doo-doo?
anen taking his townread back
(coincidentally, this is the most town anen's been all game)

...and all the sudden BTT SUCKS, GUYS...

cutting off threats seems to be an important thing now. wonder how long it's going to take copper to start magically "scumreading" me.

A potshot on myself? I think you should re-read that. Also BBT

suddenly

sucks? Again I think you should re-read, this part of the case is pretty garbage.

[vettrock]

658 - Vettrock, why is Anen town? Why am I town?

Are you seriously suggesting you left an RVS vote on Dodgy all this time? Even as his wagon was building you didn't think to take your RSV vote off? Hmm, I think I'd like to lynch you.

Why is tean town? Why is Heartless scum?

I am using the one sided meta which I know is bad in my determination of you (BBT) and Aneniem, but it is what I have to go off for now.

Did I leave my RVS vote on dodgy this whole time. Yes. Mostly due to me not having as much time to play, and that I didn't have any better prospects.

I will say all of my reads are weak reads with the exception of eyestott, who I'm putt fairly solidly on the town side. It is partially by POE and partially initial feeling.

Just to be clear the POE and initial feeling part is in reference to my other read rather than my read of eyestott.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I will say all of my reads are weak reads with the exception of eyestott, who I'm putt fairly solidly on the town side. It is partially by POE and partially initial feeling.

If your reads are weak reads, how can you have eyestott as town by PoE?

[vettrock]

I will say all of my reads are weak reads with the exception of eyestott, who I'm putt fairly solidly on the town side. It is partially by POE and partially initial feeling.

If your reads are weak reads, how can you have eyestott as town by PoE?

You don' have to trust any of my other reads, but you can trust my read on Eyestott as town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That didn't answer my question.

[copper223]

@Eyes
I have re-read what TTH said about you vs Dodgy and scum often labelling svt arguments as town against town which is something

[copper223]

stupid phone.

[copper223]

@Eyes
I have re-read what TTH said about you vs Dodgy and scum often labelling svt arguments as tvt is something I can agree with, and based on the number of players that latched onto the read that both you and Dodgy are scummy, I think, assuming you are town and din't just get lucky with the claim, that your scumread on Dodgy may be town OMGUS.

My preffered scumread, going off of Eyes town, is Killa, that L-1 while the idea of you and Aneninen being a team was floating around looks like a rushed attempt to end the day, your post to me seems more of an attempt to make me look scummy than to actually try and figure out something, it also assumes I consider Tean town, something that never was implied, but maybe something you already know.

VOTE: Killapenwin

If Eyes is town and Killa is scum, a likely team is Killa, Aneninen and Dave.

[Aneninen]

I've just looked into the thread but I haven't read it yet.

BBT, isn't it possible that I haven't made the conclusions of the Eyestott-wagon nor answered your post because I f-cking havent been here?!

By the way, I'll be a bit antisocial for a while, prepare for that. I wouldn't say that life s-cks. I only say that after I die I'll express my issues because it has been simply the most unbalanced, unfair and un-playable thing I've ever seen and this has been the most useless, pointless and annoying life I've ever lived with zero to no morals at all.

Maybe tomorrow, maybe then I'll answer everything. Or not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Maybe.

Copper, vote Anen. More traction for his wagon than killa's.

[Aneninen]

You know what? I f-cking don't care.
I only care about my next reincarnation right now because, if there's a little piece of justice in this Multiverse, that one will be a joyful and a successful life which actually is worth living.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey Anen,

While you're here, wanna answer my posts?

[copper223]

@BBT
If my read has merit it will gain traction, if it doesn't I wilk think of compromises. Explain the developpment of your read on Tean.

@Aneninen
Why are the people that were on the Eyes wagon, but not Killa the most opportunistic amongst us, people you are now considering as scum?

[Aneninen]

BBT:
Sorry, not today. And it's not because of you. Nor because of the game. I'm simply sick of everything. And I won't tell because I don't want to bring everyone down. Not a big thing in itself but you know, when time passes, you're almost 40 and you notice that your Effort/Success ratio is in the bottom 1% of the human population for no f-cking reason, then you don't really care about games like this.

Maybe tomorrow. Or next day. If nothing changes inside, I'll replace out because I don't want to spoil the game for you all out there.

Copper: basicly the same goes for you too.

[copper223]

Man that is depressing to hear, my solution in these cases is to grab a drink hopefully with a friend and forget about it for a while.

[Heartless]

my solution is to sit alone in a dark room and fester on my negative emotions until i convince myself beyond a shadow of a doubt that i'm a worthless piece of shit, my heart turns cold, and i slowly descend into madness

it's fun

[Heartless]

while we're on the subject of funhouse mirror reads progressions, why don't you walk us through your anen one?

plzthnx w/ all the sugar on top?

[Heartless]

^^^^that was at copper, btw

[mastin2]

So.

I skimmed to current.

I REALLY should have something to day.
I really should be doing something.
But in my mind, there's just this vast...

nothingness

. A numbness to everything right now.
It's really something you either know because you've experienced, or don't know and can't understand. But, well...it's not apathy, it's more like players' block, in that...I should be giving some sort of content, something, some sort of acknowledgement to the people who addressed me that I've heard what they say and have thoughts...but there's nothing there, meaning that'd be a lie. I'm just...blanking out right now.

[mastin2]

In general, I've found the best cure for that is for day to end and us to have a flip, so on that note, probably gonna switch to copper, but...well, I just don't know. I have no thoughts on town or scum. But this isn't null. This isn't ambivalence. Null is there's thoughts but no read. (Except true null, when there's no posting thus nothing.) Ambivalence is feeling both ways. But copper right now is absolute absence of thought.

I suppose there's some ambivalence in joining, in that I half-expect I'll regret it and I'm half-expecting I'll regret

not

joining it. But I'm not sure how to better explain it than that.

[eyestott]

Does the nothingness extend to your scumread of me?
I mean, if it does, fine, I can wait till tomorrow for you to give your case. But if not, ASAP please.

[mastin2]

Does the nothingness extend to your scumread of me?

In a sense.

There are some things you posted that I could answer, but just don't feel like. There are others that I should be able to, but can't. Then there's some that I just wouldn't be able to fully answer and could just struggle along to maybe make a bad attempt that's largely incoherent...but which could only be so if not for the block which makes it impossible.

...That made more sense in my head.

[copper223]

@Heartless
Here it is, and the more I re-read his ISO the more I think I was right to begin with.

135 gave me a townlean because his posts have the same feel they had in our previous game together when he was town, in particular the fact he mentioned and used direct meta to give a read on Dave, the player that was currently being scumread is what I consider valuable information, something that scum only in rare cases wants to give away (for instance if Dave is Aneninen's teammate). I also did not notice he actually was the first to postulate the theory of one scum on Dave, which makes perfect sense from Town_Aneninen, the fact he mentioned it in reverse was something I did not like later and that was my bad because I forgot of this.

I'm fine with him and I get a stronger town lean in 406, I had in mind a possible Aneninen Dave connection and that's why I asked him to give me a % of Dave town, and Scum_Aneninen saying his teammate is 90% town seemed a very risky thing to do, so I thought it was more likely they either were both town or Aneninen was giving an incorrect read on Dave despite himself.

417 very mildy pings me, because in our previous game together Aneninen thought I was pretty townie D1, so he sometimes quoted what I said to give it relevance, the fact he is doing it again here about something I did not really consider game breaking might be an attempt to cement his pocket of Copper in the unlikely (what I believed at the time) scenario that he is scum with Dave. The way he replies to the reaction test (I don't have a clue what you are going on about), seems town.

619 is where I started to question the read, he says in the same paragraph he was waiting to see if someone put Eyes at L-1, which would be particularly scum indicative (but Eyestott is a scumread of his anyway?) and that he doesn't want to go on Killa because of something both he and BBT noticed, I checked back on Killa and I didn't see what he was going on about.

669 was the reason for me posting that if Aneninen is scum he made an excellent job out of fooling me, it seemed clear to me at the time one of the main reasons I switched from Dave to Eyes was my interaction with Aneninen and the townread we shared, it was me saying if you're telling me you're sure about Dave I respect that and I'll go for one of the other players that pinged us both. I was not expecting him to, in my eyes at least, misrep that into Copper just jumped on Eyes without considering him much before, which I don't think is true as I spent quite some time explaining what I didn't like from him and from Dodgy when asked to give my scumreads by BBT. It looked like I had bene manipulated into leaving the Dave wagon and now Aneninen was using this, writing our interaction off, to paint scum on me, I think I said it best with the making a clown out me comment.

The last part of his ISO looks town again, so idk what to think about it anymore.