Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)


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Post Post #950 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:51 pm

Post by Jackal711 »

VOTE COUNT 1.9


killapenwin (0) -
BlueBloodedToffee (0) -
eyestott (1) - copper223
Heartless (1) - davesaz
davesaz (4) - Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless, beastcharizard
copper223 (3) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin, eyestott
vettrock (0) -
Aneninen (0) -
dodgy56 (0) -
Wickedestjr (0) -
beastcharizard (0) -
Tean Samargo (3) - Aneninen, dodgy56, Wickedestjr
mastin2 (0) -

Not Voting: vettrock

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Monday, January 19th at 2:00 pm PST which is in (expired on 2015-01-19 14:00:00)
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Post Post #951 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:53 pm

Post by Jackal711 »

A reminder that you have only 37 hours until deadline as of this post. I will attempt to provide more frequent votecounts.
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Post Post #952 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:58 pm

Post by Wickedestjr »

beastcharizard wrote:
Wickedestjr wrote:If scum, you wouldn’t be ‘playing to win’ unless you made an active effort to manipulate your meta… If you were scum, why wouldn’t you just play the same way?


I asked when I did it successfully.

I don't know the answer to that - doesn't matter to me. But I do know that 'not doing anything' isn't a tricky play style to fake. If you aren't willing to try it as scum, then you wouldn't be playing to win.

beast wrote:Also, there is no benefit of lurking at this time. Late game sure lurking has its benefit, but early game it is a death sentence.

Yes, but it is okay for you because that's your town meta. Don't act like you aren't aware of that.

beast wrote:I have my reasons for not being around and yes it is a strategy. If dave is scum it totally worked.

Brilliant. :roll:
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Post Post #953 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:59 pm

Post by Wickedestjr »

Jackal711 wrote:
Wickedestjr wrote:*catching up right now*

Mod:
I'm voting Tean right now.


That vote was not counted because it was not placed correctly.

Rules wrote:Votes must be on
their own line
for easy recognition.

Got it, won't happen again.
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Post Post #954 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Post by Wickedestjr »

I have noticed that people seem to be ruling out vettrock and beast for lynches today because their lynches would yield no information. I agree with this idea, I also don’t want to lynch either of them today. However, I would like to point out a key difference between the two of them. vettrock has contributed very little, but has at least made a small effort and expressed intention to develop his reads. beast has done nothing and made no promises of anything - if he lives for too long I fear that he will always continue to be an irrelevant slot. I’m fine giving vettrock more time to further develop his reads, even though I think he should be more confident at this point. I’m not fine waiting on beast - I really think that beast should be pressured after night 1, if he’s still alive. Don’t let him continue to slide under the radar.

I like all three of the major bandwagons right now. While there is a good chance that copper is scum, the consequences of mislynching him, if he’s town, would be the worst in my opinion. As I said before, his vengekill essentially replaces our day 2 lynch. I’d prefer our day 2 lynch to be decided based on a full day and night’s worth of information. A vengekill today would be based solely on day 1 info from a player that would have no flips to work with. So the day 2 lynch is better. Furthermore, between dave/copper/Tean, I think copper is third scummiest
anyway
.

Between davesaz and Tean Samargo, I think dave is significantly scummier - he’s active when under pressure and coasting when not. Consider also his weak scum hunting, various strange posts and seemingly attempted town tells throughout the thread and you’ve got a player that in no way resembles town. His lynch is also superior to Tean’s in that he is already known not to be a town power role. We could get him today and Tean wouldn’t have to claim before the night. Tean is still suspicious, but I think dave is the best choice now.

Unvote. Vote: davesaz (L-2)
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Post Post #955 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:26 pm

Post by davesaz »

Wickedestjr wrote:
Between davesaz and Tean Samargo, I think dave is significantly scummier - he’s active when under pressure and coasting when not. Consider also his weak scum hunting, various strange posts and seemingly attempted town tells throughout the thread and you’ve got a player that in no way resembles town. His lynch is also superior to Tean’s in that he is already known not to be a town power role. We could get him today and Tean wouldn’t have to claim before the night. Tean is still suspicious, but I think dave is the best choice now.

Quote it and explain why it's scummy. Not a single player has been able to do that the entire game.

I mean, c'mon people, not everyone can be mensa strength, but at least some of you must have a little intelligence.
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Post Post #956 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:09 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

beastcharizard wrote:VOTE: Davesaz

1. They seem to be going after easy targets.
2. Sheep Heartless.

Aww, come on.

Are we actually going to let this just happen?

Would prefer to lynch Copper, Anen, BC or eye before Dave.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #957 (ISO) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:33 pm

Post by dodgy56 »

ok catching up. i honestly dont like the eyestott lynch... and im concerned that mastin is assuming eyes is scum at this point. i was thinking that eyes seemed scummy earlier, but based on experience i dont think he fakeclaimed his role. Moreover he adjusted his read based on a game just finished at my our homesite and if he has scum he has absolutely no reason to do so.

@Mastin i was thinking Anen was my 3rd for tean/vettrock but just realised Anen was voting tean...
Looking back to see when that vote occurred it was way back in so i could easily see that as a distancing vote especially since tean has never really been under that much pressure.

yeah i like tean/vettrock/anen
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Post Post #958 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:37 am

Post by Heartless »

davesaz wrote:Heartless is pushing an obvious mislynch. I also see scum in the hydra dissonance -- Anti thinks I'm easy meat, while
TTH knows from personal experience
I can nail scum who go after me with no evidence.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about here?
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Post Post #959 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:43 am

Post by dodgy56 »

the copper lynch looks very town driven to me. (that doesnt mean copper is scum though) ill be interested to see where vettrock parks his vote next. i have other votes im waiting to see what happens with, but i dont want to telegraph which ones at this point
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Post Post #960 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:47 am

Post by Heartless »

Antihero's read progression on you since has been pretty clearly explained and I actually think it's pretty damn valid. I see you've got the bluster part down, dave, but I don't see any actual arguments to back them up.

Where's the bluster even coming from? You didn't vote scum in m9++ until the wagon already had a couple votes, and even then you wanted to vote me.

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Post Post #961 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:52 am

Post by Heartless »

BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Aww, come on.

Are we actually going to let this just happen?

Would prefer to lynch Copper, Anen, BC or eye before Dave.


BBT, that last question wasn't rhetorical. I thought there was a huge discussion after DrPeppers game about how scum didn't fakeclaim vengeful. Why are you acting like copper's claim is scummy?

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Post Post #962 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:56 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Because I'm basing my read on Copper's play and not his claim.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
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Post Post #963 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:02 am

Post by Heartless »

All I can say is that if copper is scum and fakeclaiming here, he picked a pants-shittingly bad fakeclaim. If there's any ambiguity with the letters at LYLO, he's made himself a policy lynch anyway so the motive behind the claim isn't survivalist.

As someone who's drawn the vengeful role before, his behavior here makes a lot of sense to me.

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Post Post #964 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:02 am

Post by copper223 »

@Wicked
Wickedestjr wrote:I REALLY don’t like this. Blaming Heartless for not being able to read you when you deliberately alter your play? I would expect someone to scum read you for playing scummy on purpose. There’s another hole in your plan: “play scummy enough” and “survive to lylo” - those don’t go together. I think you should know that drastically altering your play as a pr is usually a bad thing. I don’t buy this.

And the crumb is ridiculous too. The phrases “have a good shot” and “gun to head” are both perfectly ordinary.

Vengeful is a good claim for scum because it’s not at all testable. Also, at this point in the game, even if you are town, your power has no benefit. It doesn’t increase the number of kills that town has control over - a vengekill would simply replace our day 2 lynch. But I’d much rather have a day 2 lynch.

TTH only has completed games with me as scum and this is not how I play it, so I did not alter my scum meta as far as she knows, I have played in what can superfically be classified as a scummy fashion by voting a lot of players and wagon hopping, did you see how many players I have been scumreading this game, basically everyone minus Beast, Tean and Vettrock, and those because of lack of content, and you because the way you have been analysing this game is pretty pro town so likely coming from a town as well, this is going to change right about now because I am on the same page as mastin with a team of:

Tean/Vettrock and my personal favourite Eyestott.


For your enjoyment this is my latest scumgame, where I have a 100% score: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=60122

Does that look in any way comparable to you?

As for your wagon comment on Eyestott, your point is I did not see the same, or worse, wagon dynamics going on with Eyes, I'm telling you I did not notice the same lack of resistance in his wagon that I got from Dave, if your interpretation is correct, likely because when Dave was getting driven to L-2 nothing else was going on, during the Eyestott wagon period we had other reads floating about like Heartless saying he liked Aneninen and Killa as scum, the absence of a vote count also made it harder to see how quickly Eyes was driven to L-2 the first time, after I left the wagon my main concern moved to TTH's case on Mastin and if she was onto something, until Killa erroneously put Eyes to L-1 and I went back to check on the Eyes play and found he was actively lurking, that sums it up for me.

As for the VCA being useless to you, it may be now, but once you get a flip on one of us please don't forget to check back on it, I also have the advantage of knowing my own alignment so it's more meaningful for me and I think it's unlikely all 3 wagons were on townies.

@All
If Eyestott is scum you should revisit Wicked as well, from his play alone he looks pretty town but he is defending him pretty strongly.
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Post Post #965 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:43 am

Post by copper223 »

VOTE: Tean

If I can't lynch Eyes I think Tean is his most likely teammate, if you lynch me I can kill eyes so this is likely the best I can do.

If you lynch Dave and he flips scum I'm gone tomorrow but have a good idea who to kill, so that's fine, if you lynch Dave and he flips town I can pursue Eyes tomorrow again, only the shitty case where all three wagons were on town and Mastin/Dodgy were behind the pushes would royally screw us but I don't think that's where we are at, if scum kills me in this scenario Eyes is pretty much dead tomorrow (please town don't fuck this one up).
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Post Post #966 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:52 am

Post by copper223 »

@TTH
Do you think BBT is scum here?
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Post Post #967 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:21 am

Post by Tean Samargo »

davesaz wrote:Of all the stuff posted in the last few hours, is this really the most productive thing you can focus on?

Is this really your final answer? A deflection? To thevery least I would expect a townie to explain why they thought that the mentioned posts were you pointing out some scummy things happening. But your answer here is telling me "Oh snap, the jig is up! I should try avoiding an answer and redirect this attention."

Originally, I thought it was strange that you should mention that there were scummy things going about that was being ignored. I didn't see you push it via voting, or point them out. Now that you pointed them out, I'll accepted it.

The problem is now, most of these things aren't even you pointing out things that are scummy. They were either defensive posts on your end, or vague questions that tell no one of what your opinion on the matter is. Looking through this list, I only see 2 posts that show you pointing out something scummy. It's as if you expected me to look at your post, and tell myself "Wow look at all these posts. He definitely was scum hunting the whole time. I might as well not click them and see whats in it."

The unrelated links feel like filler, and it looks like you're trying to strengthen your argument by adding a larger quantity of links. Not exactly the towniest thing to do. That deflection right at the end makes your action down right scummier.
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Post Post #968 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:24 am

Post by Tean Samargo »

@Dodgy
I don't think I've seen your case on your current wagon yet. You made it painfully clear in your last wagon about your opinions.
Could you post a summary on your case?
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Post Post #969 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:11 am

Post by Tean Samargo »

@Wicked
Sweet Jesus, replying to that on phone will be a bit of a pain. I'm visiting the library in a bit, so I'll hold off till then.
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Post Post #970 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:14 am

Post by killapenwin »

unvote


I will be going over thread soon, stating who I would be willing to vote for and giving a brief reason as to why. I will be including who I am not voting for and why, too.
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Post Post #971 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:19 am

Post by davesaz »

Heartless wrote:Antihero's read progression on you since has been pretty clearly explained and I actually think it's pretty damn valid. I see you've got the bluster part down, dave, but I don't see any actual arguments to back them up.

Where's the bluster even coming from? You didn't vote scum in m9++ until the wagon already had a couple votes, and even then you wanted to vote me.

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Quote a post of mine and say why it is scummy. Why is this so hard? Because there aren't any!
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Post Post #972 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:35 am

Post by Heartless »

Spoiler:
Heartless wrote:'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Heartless wrote:Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.


dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

Heartless wrote:
davesaz wrote:
copper223 wrote:I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.


I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

Heartless wrote:the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

Heartless wrote:
davesaz wrote:Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs
all
the town to
wake up
!


there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

Heartless wrote:
davesaz wrote:On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard


i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

Heartless wrote:
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the
kicker


is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Heartless wrote:
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.


btw, ur full of crap if u try to take credit for the fud lynch in m9++. i read that game.

once your "vca" turned into a pile of mushy shit, your case becomes based on nothing more than thinly veiled omgus under the guise of "EVERYONE'S PICKING ON ME."

there's nothing at the core of your scumhunting aside from shallow platitudes and generalities that lead fucking nowhere.

it's fake.

you're scum.
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Post Post #973 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:38 am

Post by davesaz »

Tean Samargo wrote:
davesaz wrote:Of all the stuff posted in the last few hours, is this really the most productive thing you can focus on?

Is this really your final answer? A deflection? To thevery least I would expect a townie to explain why they thought that the mentioned posts were you pointing out some scummy things happening. But your answer here is telling me "Oh snap, the jig is up! I should try avoiding an answer and redirect this attention."

Originally, I thought it was strange that you should mention that there were scummy things going about that was being ignored. I didn't see you push it via voting, or point them out. Now that you pointed them out, I'll accepted it.

The problem is now, most of these things aren't even you pointing out things that are scummy. They were either defensive posts on your end, or vague questions that tell no one of what your opinion on the matter is. Looking through this list, I only see 2 posts that show you pointing out something scummy. It's as if you expected me to look at your post, and tell myself "Wow look at all these posts. He definitely was scum hunting the whole time. I might as well not click them and see whats in it."

The unrelated links feel like filler, and it looks like you're trying to strengthen your argument by adding a larger quantity of links. Not exactly the towniest thing to do. That deflection right at the end makes your action down right scummier.


What you're calling a deflection is yet another obvtown tell. Don't waste your votes on me, try someone else.

Inactivity is scummier than anything I've done.
Voting me when I've done nothing scummy is scummier than anything I've done.
I'm not just attempting town tells, I'm posting actual town tells, like the only thing that will confirm me more is an actual flip.

I had very strong scum reads on both eyestott and copper. Everything I was seeing had been posted by someone else. I'm in UTC-7 and one of the last people to get to my active time of day, on a daily basis. Weekdays I'm lucky to get to it before 9pm my time (middle of the night BBT's time), and it's typical for there to be no other posts in the thread until morning my time when I'm back working and can't play. It's scummy to do nothing but repeat what others already said, so I don't regurgitate.

What the hell am I supposed to do here? I do have unique scum reads (Heartless and Mastin) but the best I'm gonna get with that is vanity wagons.
No point in lynching the PRs, if they're town then mafia have to kill copper anyway and aren't likely to leave a tracker alive either.

Either lynch me and get it over with, or
move on and try to lynch scum
.
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Post Post #974 (ISO) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:40 am

Post by davesaz »

Heartless wrote:
Spoiler:
Heartless wrote:'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Heartless wrote:Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.


dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

Heartless wrote:
davesaz wrote:
copper223 wrote:I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.


I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

Heartless wrote:the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

Heartless wrote:
davesaz wrote:Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs
all
the town to
wake up
!


there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

Heartless wrote:
davesaz wrote:On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard


i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

Heartless wrote:
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the
kicker


is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Heartless wrote:
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.


btw, ur full of crap if u try to take credit for the fud lynch in m9++. i read that game.

once your "vca" turned into a pile of mushy shit, your case becomes based on nothing more than thinly veiled omgus under the guise of "EVERYONE'S PICKING ON ME."

there's nothing at the core of your scumhunting aside from shallow platitudes and generalities that lead fucking nowhere.

it's fake.

you're scum.


I knew FuD was scum on about page 3 but nobody would listen to me.
I sure as hell did catch scum in that game. Heartless totally gets the credit for starting the wagon, but don't try to tell me I had nothing to do with it.
A community that stifles dissent does not deserve the title of community
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