Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[davesaz]

BTW,

if

Mastin turns up scum here.

I knew on page 2.

[Heartless]

What you're calling a deflection is yet another obvtown tell. Don't waste your votes on me, try someone else.

Inactivity is scummier than anything I've done.
Voting me when I've done nothing scummy is scummier than anything I've done.
I'm not just attempting town tells, I'm posting actual town tells, like the only thing that will confirm me more is an actual flip.

the SECOND you identify what you think is a towntell, you subvert ALL it's fucking meaning. you're trying to replicate townflail and IT'S PAINFULLY OBVIOUS YOU'RE DOING SO

all you've done this game is drop off the radar once the initial pressure subsided then swamp the thread in this morass of self-meta horseshit when you get called on it

[Heartless]

I sure as hell did catch scum in that game. Heartless totally gets the credit for starting the wagon, but don't try to tell me I had nothing to do with it.

1) killapenwin is scum
2) BlueBloodedToffee is scum
3) eyestott is scum
4) Heartless is scum
5) davesaz is scum
6) copper223 is scum
7) vettrock is scum
8) Aneninen is scum
9) dodgy56 is scum
10) Wickedestjr is scum
11) beastcharizard is scum
12) Tean Samargo is scum
13) mastin2 is scum

[Heartless]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I JUST CALLED OUT THE WHOLE SCUMTEAM GUYZ

scumreads don't mean shit if they don't have teeth

yours don't

[copper223]

@Heartless
The question here is not is davesaz a good ar a bad mafia player, the question is did he roll scum this game.

[Heartless]

@Heartless
The question here is not is davesaz a good ar a bad mafia player, the question is did he roll scum this game.

well obviously his priorities fall with wanting to create an

appearance

of town while sewing confusion and not actually wanting to form evolved reads that's actually based on....anything

the calculus of probabilities tells me that's more likely scum motivated than town motivated..,

,what's it telling you?

[copper223]

It's telling me he thinks giving the appeareance of being town is a good thing to do regardless of alignment and hence playstile (bad at that).

I also find it unlikely scum has the balls to say they played a flawless town game in davesaz's position.

[copper223]

Like was he like this in his other games as well or not?

[Heartless]

only other game i was in w/ him was

and he sure shit was NOT (he was town there)

[Heartless]

*only other game i was in w/ him was c9++

[Tean Samargo]

I never thought your post was meant to be a 'read'. Not sure why you got that impression. Also not sure how this distinction affects the validity of my points...

The difference would be in the time-frame. My opinion on the play was of what happened back then, whereas a read would be more current. You seem to be suggesting that my opinion was current, seeing that you pointed out a contradiction between my note on mastin and the mastin of right now. As seen here:

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

Read, opinion or whatever. It doesn't matter what you call it. The point is, our mindsets are based on different timeframes. You think my post is about current matters, and I intended it to be about something that happened during a small period of time early on.

Glad you have admitted that 'idolizing' was a stretch - it still bothers me though. And eyestott trusted that mastin had reasons he couldn't immediately divulge with us, but I don't consider that blindly following - he waited several days before voting dave. Your use of the word 'people' in 'people are practically idolizing her' and 'blindly following her' also seems like a stretch if this is your only example. Do you have any other examples?

No other examples. I only noticed eyesttot doing this. I tend to refer individuals as 'people' sometimes. Pardon my english. How do.

I don't think I'm blowing anything up. You say that you voted dave because he was suspicious and not because of what mastin said. But mastin never gave explicit reasons for suspecting dave, so EVERYBODY voting dave had to give their own reasons, just like you. Even eyestott, your example follower, voted dave for claiming prematurely - this was not a point that mastin mentioned prior to his vote. Nobody ever said anything along the lines of "Look this guy said he's scum without explaining - lets trust him", everybody gave their own reason for joining just like you. I think you're blowing this up.

Like I said, if they voted with a reason, its because there's something scummy about the person. I didn't say that the voting itself was blindly following, but rather the interaction before the voting seemed like some people (in this case Eye) were blindly following to me.

When did I say that?

You didn't, but I assumed this was the reason why you thought I was about to jump on Mastin.

Also, I'm also anticipating you to ask why I haven't posted this opinion earlier. To that I say that this opinion has nothing helpful to offer to town. I am simply saying that I dislike a play for earlier. This is basically a crap post. The only reason why I'm mentioning it now is because someone asked me, and I was curious to see where they were going with this.
Looking at the aftermath, its seems the question was just as useless as the answer.

[Tean Samargo]

@dodgy
I just saw your last post. It seems like you are rearing up to jump ship.

[davesaz]

It's telling me he thinks giving the appeareance of being town is a good thing to do regardless of alignment and hence playstile (bad at that).

I also find it unlikely scum has the balls to say they played a flawless town game in davesaz's position.

I'm saying that nobody has quoted a post and said

why

it is scummy.

There's no flawless here, I've obviously fucked up somehow to be town and get so many votes.

I do indeed think it is the best playstyle to always do things to look town. I had a 13 game win streak on one of the other sites and the only major difference in my play is that I'm allowed to use language here that would get people banned over there. Yes, that's an appeal to my own authority, no it's not scummy. And I know fully well that 13 games is a drop in the bucket here, there are probably dozens of people who have done that. We only played about 20 games a year on the other site, you do the math.

I might have to invent a whole new style in order to thrive on MS. Honesty doesn't get anywhere near as much credit as I'm used to, and people have much itchier trigger fingers here. And people get away with lurking as scum that would have drawn an instant lynch where I come from.

Believe it or not, I'm getting reads off this. Heartless scum, Mastin scum. Copper town. There are more but I haven't been keeping track off the top of my head so would need to finish posting this to go back and look. Are these reads right? Maybe not, but it's what I have, and while I might not fit in socially yet I'm definitely not stupid.

[Heartless]

I'm saying that nobody has quoted a post and said why it is scummy.

i have

you've chosen to ignore it

[davesaz]

Link?

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs

all

the town to

wake up

!

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the

kicker

is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.

btw, ur full of crap if u try to take credit for the fud lynch in m9++. i read that game.

once your "vca" turned into a pile of mushy shit, your case becomes based on nothing more than thinly veiled omgus under the guise of "EVERYONE'S PICKING ON ME."

there's nothing at the core of your scumhunting aside from shallow platitudes and generalities that lead fucking nowhere.

it's fake.

you're scum.

i could just quote this a million times, but i think you'd still ignore it

what, you need a link back to your own activity after the copper vote? here you go: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6535142

the analysis leads nowhere. and when i tell you the emperor's wearing no clothes, you get mad at ME and I'M magically scum for it.
your argument is laying on the floor in a million pieces. everything. the copper scumread based on the claim. the theory that scum will have "such and such" vote pattern.

you don't answer the basic question

WHY?

and that's indicative of FALSE ANALYSIS because there's no meat behind ... anything you argue FROM that. you're arguing from AIR.

and somehow i'm scum for saying this.

[davesaz]

I'll be honest, my approach has been somewhat lazy.

I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained. Mea culpa.

Unfortunately, this game is

really lacking in strong analysis

. Too much taking the easy route by too many people. Not saying it's all bad, but the noise ratio is much higher than optimum.

Peak wagons, at the point of vote counts.

I did not look if the wagons got more/different votes between VC

. The point of this is to get an idea of where to look, since re-reading the whole thread and analyzing 10 players would take quite a lot of time. Looking at the copper wagon after the VC was easy and obvious, so I did track it down to the actual max point.

davesaz (5) - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott, copper223

eyestott (5) - dodgy56, BlueBloodedToffee, davesaz, Mastin2, killapenwin

copper223 (4) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin, Heartless, davesaz

Umm,

copper only had 3 (or less) votes at time of claim

.

After I get castigated for claiming VT at L-2?

Really??

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

Suppose

all of these wagons are exclusively town driven. While I can't say why scum would not have been on any of the wagons, a scum team of Vettrock, Aneninen, and beastcharizard is pretty damn appealing. Vettrock has been very noncommital the whole D1 but waves it off as being a bad D1 player. beastcharizard is active lurking and I remember seeing comments that producing content is his scum meta. But meta can be manipulated. And Aneninen has had all those catchup walls.

Let's say

that one scum is in the group not on any wagons, and one is in the group who have been on two wagons. Even that narrows down a re-read to just 6 players.

Can I get a little help here

? We need to pick someone if we're going to squeeze in a lynch before deadline.

Let's review the bolded parts.

1. Honesty
   
2. An opinion on how the game is going. By definition an opinion cannot be a lie. It can be wrong. (hint: more honesty)
   
3. Honesty
   
4. An observation of fact
   
5. Underlined: a statement that I got more shit for claiming early than copper did, and he claimed even earlier
   
6. A theory which needs research
   
7. Another theory which needs research
   
8. A plea to get some help researching theories

What happened after that?

Heartless ignores all of the points and calls this scummy.
Copper actually helps
Mastin ignores the entire post, and everything else I've posted in the last couple of days.

[davesaz]

Care to try again?

[Heartless]

HOLY SHIT EVEN NOW

you're not clarifying your previous arguments or telling me what the basic philosophy is, you're lawyering the fucking post

[Heartless]

the sleaze factor is just off the charts and copper just wants to say you're a sleazeball or bad or whatever he was saying

i don't buy any of that

[davesaz]

More bolding for people having reading comprehension problems.

@Heartless Thanks. I could have looked... but do you want to push the read? FWIW,

I never had Tean as town

and never got the point of anyone town reading them. I've waffled between scum and null -- I get a scum and then Tean posts something that moves it back to null.

Some gut reads: (

full disclosure, I didn't bother to look at any old reads I might have posted.

)

I can quite easily say that

beast is the least likely of the non-voters to be scum

. I have seen beast act just like this, and his name appeared on the list solely for voting pattern.

Town side of null but very weak

. I was kinda surprised he beetlejuiced so quickly which is promising.

BBT's most recent few posts are strongly reminiscent of the way he reacted to soft suspicion in a town game. It's nothing like the way he played as scum in an earlier game. I'm uncomfortable using meta, and not just for his sig. I see definite signs that both his scum and town games are situational, and the meta is likely very easy to get wrong. Aside from the defensive nature of focusing on the list of voters on more than one wagon, it seems town motivated to want to get the suspect list right.

Lean town

though I still want to confirm with some re-reads.

When I read Mastin, I want to throw meta out the window and say this is

scum opportunism to the core

. She even said she thrives in semi-open random setups, which looks like so much WIFOM unless you consider that she might say that just to throw off suspicion. Constantly mentioning the streak is another thing which is WIFOMy but potentially telling. Reactions like the "you really don't want to call me a liar" thing make for great townlike theater but if someone acts that way all the time it says nothing about alignment. In which case emphasis on

theater

.

Lean scum.

I'd go stronger with this, but I feel this is a player that you need your ducks lined up in order to attack, especially D1. I've had a bad experience with that but can't give details for the obvious reason. And hell yes, this approach (wanting ducks lined up) is survivalist. It's also consistent with how I play so bite me if you don't like it.

That's 3 of the 6 I pointed out, plus a bonus response on Tean.

IOU quotes and analysis

.
Stopping for now, to limit the wall size and because I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today.

Pedit @Heartless. Haven't heard the 'pop' yet, and time is running out. Mislynches are bad for town.

Honesty and reads. Bold+italic is both honesty and a read at the same time, but I can't say more without referring to an ongoing game.

[davesaz]

HOLY SHIT EVEN NOW

you're not clarifying your previous arguments or telling me what the basic philosophy is, you're lawyering the fucking post

the sleaze factor is just off the charts and copper just wants to say you're a sleazeball or bad or whatever he was saying

i don't buy any of that

Posts like this are the basis of my scum read.

[Heartless]

i don't give half a shit about if you think you're being honest or not.

are the ducks lined up? if so, let's see 'em. if not, why the hell not?

and if part of your argument relies on meta from an ongoing game, something is fucked up

[Heartless]

Posts like this are the basis of my scum read.

a post like this is the basis of my scum read

[davesaz]

Missed another honesty quote. "I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today"
I have a life. I don't fade when I'm not the topic of discussion, I fade when I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
You didn't see me whacking your hydra when you were V/LA.

Pedit: Not meta, it's a different player and I got quicklynched. Remember, I don't like being lynched.

Besides, my case on Mastin isn't the type of stuff you give a shit about anyway. In simple terms, she pushed for my lynch with no evidence. I've posted gobs of stuff and she's ignored it.