Mini 1630: Edgar Allan Poe uPick GAME OVER!

[Bookitty]

One = at least one.

That can be completely accurate without giving away any information about a scum role.

What is happening now is that people are assuming that there is a scum role that is immune to sensors. This effectively flips the table. If there IS such a role, it completely negates the value of that role by making it obvious to everyone after the fact. If you don't see that as town-sided, I don't know what you are thinking.

EBWOP: I don't have a clue, Copper. I have a PM in to Ffery that is a little more specific and I am hoping to have an answer in the thread or at least in my inbox.

I don't like that you are playing both sides against the middle. Either it's a non-Morbid (and Ffery's own words CONFIRM that there is at least one non-Morbid on the lynch) or it's null either way. You can't have it both ways.

Is Cat your buddy? I hadn't been thinking that. I still think 3 is the most likely scenario.

[copper223]

One = at least one, 2000 = 2015 + or - 10, yup.

You are the one playing it both ways, either I am right or you don't believe me, you can't turn around and use my argument to call me scum with Cat (let's hope you are scum here or your bizzare interpretation is correct and Ffery is screwing with us (then I won't be happy with her), otherwise you won't be happy with my comments post game).

She says there is at least one non morbid, it does not imply anything about the other non scannable player(s) if there is (are) one (more than one), we make that assumption ourselves.

[copper223]

ebwop: One = at least one, 2005 = 2015 + or - 10, yup (doesn't really matter as both equalities are nonsense)

[Bookitty]

I don't know, Copper.

You were wrong about the non-Morbid comment. Correct? I don't know why you said it.

If you think that there are two scum (non-Morbid) on the wagon, as you apparently do, then why would you make this comment?

It does not say it's non morbid, that's an assumption we make because a morbid should not have joined that lynch if he were unscannable.

Why argue that there is only one in this statement when you think there are two? I mean, THAT part of Ffery's post was really clear. There was at least one non-Morbid. If you're basing your whole support for this theory on Ffery's wording, then why would you bring up the possibility of a Morbid on the lynch when her wording is pretty explicitly against that?

It's like you're trying to find a reason there aren't two scum on this wagon; that makes no sense given your stated beliefs.

[copper223]

She said at least one non morbid.

- Case 1: everyone on the lynch can be scanned, in this case the mod chose to obfuscate the results for no apparent reason and we have 1 scum.

- Case 2: there is a 1 or more players on whom the scan power from lynch doesn't yield results. In this case saying there is at least one non morbid means we don't have a clue about the players on whom the power failed, they could be banana aligned, they could be morbid aligned, they could be non morbid aligned, all we know is there is one scum but possibly more (this is accurate wording).

Claro?

[Bookitty]

To be as plain as I can:

Getting into setup, so bear with me.

Being unable to be detected by the sensor is a pro-scum power if it exists.
Essentially telling us that such a scum (non-Morbid) exists by saying "at least one" would negate the utility of that power.
That would take power away from scum.
Thus it is town-sided.
If Ffery essentially just told us that scum had this power, it's useless. It's actually more beneficial to town, since the wagon is a smaller pool than the off-wagon pool.
You're assuming that she did.
If she did, the ability of that scum was rendered useless.

Town-sided, see?

[fferyllt]

@Mod: Is your wording meant to indicate that there is more than one scum on the wagon? You said one initially and then amended it to "at least one." The role PM you gave Lynx indicated that it would tell EXACTLY how many scum were on his wagon. Was this flavour? If you cannot answer, please say so.

I won't answer this question.

[copper223]

@Boo
Yes that was the only point you made that made some sense to me, but only partially.

If the scumplayer's power is he can't be scanned at all, then giving his role away is town sided from the mod, and I don't think Ffery would do so, but if the scumplayer's power is that checks on him don't yield an alignment then the mod has to say that the scan resulted in 1 scum for sure and possibly more because there is a blank in there, that is in no way town sided.

Not knowing what role scum has this is my best guess, it's by far superior to Ffery saying at least one just for funzies and then telling us her wording is accurate (adding insult to injury).

[CaskOfAmontillado]

We arrive in game at two because we make a series of very reasonable (but by no means universally true) assumptions, these being:

- Scum wants to split 2-1

- Given the wording there is one or more non-scannable player(s) on the lynch

- The non-scannable player(s) has(have) no reason to be townie, so it must be a second (or more) scum player.

I agree with this.

Unless you'd like to don your tin-foil hat and argue there's a third party on the lynch wagon, what's the problem you have with this Bookitty?

[CaskOfAmontillado]

copper, I'm not sure why you're not thinking Medea is scum. It's obviously the highest probability play unless you'd like to develop your Krystal read more.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah it pretty much seems to me that there was a non-scannable player on the lynch. I don't know how else to explain the discrepancy between the role PM and the result we got.

But I don't see how we can assume that the non-scannable player(s) was/were town or scum. That's basically just speculation. Couldn't it have been Lynx that was the non-scannable one?

--tool.

[Bookitty]

I am saying that one is the same as at least one so she wouldn't be inaccurate even if this theory is not right. Like, if you ask me if I have any beers, and I say "at least one," I wouldn't be lying if there was just one lonely Corona in my fridge.

Assuming that I have two is on you, not me. I was accurate.

If the scum power is not to show up on the sensor but for it to be heavily implied that there's an unscannable, then it's useless in that regard.

It might be useful in another regard (and this indicates COA-town, by the way, if there is an unscannable non-Morbid) to give "no result" on an investigation. That would make me think scum for sure, though, given the results of the sensor.

If you remember nothing else, PLEASE remember the bolded part.

[TierShift]

Bookitty has a point.

[CaskOfAmontillado]

I am saying that one is the same as at least one so she wouldn't be inaccurate even if this theory is not right. Like, if you ask me if I have any beers, and I say "at least one," I wouldn't be lying if there was just one lonely Corona in my fridge.

Yes. However, if two friends come over for beers and they each ask how many you have and you look at them and say "at least one" you wouldn't be a liar, but you'd still be an asshole.

There's nothing in Lynx's role PM indicating he's get an ambiguous result but that's what we got. ffery either did that to be a jerk or there's something up on the other side of the investigation.

[Bookitty]

Unless you'd like to don your tin-foil hat and argue there's a third party on the lynch wagon, what's the problem you have with this Bookitty?

I have explained this here:

1. That she deliberately worded it that way to make the results less definitive (though I would think that was sort of scum-sided and I wouldn't like it)
2. That she was being absolutely truthful and telling the town the results weren't definitive regardless of Lynx's role PM (though I would think that was sort of town-sided, role-revelatory and I wouldn't like that either)
3. It's just the way she worded it for flavour and now she's stuck trying to explain it without confirming or denying any of the theories floated in the thread

and here:

Being unable to be detected by the sensor is a pro-scum power if it exists.
Essentially telling us that such a scum (non-Morbid) exists by saying "at least one" would negate the utility of that power.
That would take power away from scum.
Thus it is town-sided.
If Ffery essentially just told us that scum had this power, it's useless. It's actually more beneficial to town, since the wagon is a smaller pool than the off-wagon pool.
You're assuming that she did.
If she did, the ability of that scum was rendered useless.

I don't know if I'm right. If there are two scum on the wagon, then you're town for sure, COA, because otherwise Ffery just stripped an ability from scum due to her wording. I'm trying to work out if I think you're town for sure anyway by claim, but this is very difficult

[Bookitty]

Couldn't it have been Lynx that was the non-scannable one?

No. The wording was a "non-Morbid betrayer". There is at least one "non-Morbid betrayer" on the lynch. They can't possibly be Morbid. Lynx was Morbid.

[copper223]

@CoA

It may be for you CoA, I have most likely a 50% chance when picking between Boo, Cata, Ghato and Kthx.

Why is Medea playing against their win-con if they are scum, by lurking like this they are painting a giant target on their back. If they stop lurking and produce content I dislike and nobody else wants to pick between us 5, as they should, I will think about it.

@Cat

But I don't see how we can assume that the non-scannable player(s) was/were town or scum. That's basically just speculation. Couldn't it have been Lynx that was the non-scannable one?

What business does a morbid aligned player have on the wagon? There is nothing in Lynx's PM to support this.

@Boo
It's not a lie, it's a way to needlessly complicate the game for no reason adding variables after the fact, and I don't see why a mod would do that, she should have said so in Lynx's PM if his results were going to be ambiguous in any way by default because that can change the way he would want to play his role, I think that's very unfair if it's what she has done so I don't think that's what she did.

[CaskOfAmontillado]

If the scum power is not to show up on the sensor but for it to be heavily implied that there's an unscannable, then it's useless in that regard.

Seems to me that would be dependent on how the scum player chose to claim the role.

Seeing that Lynx's role is incredibly powerful, I could maybe imagine having unscannable town just to create ambiguity in the results and not allow them to be completely game breaking. My conclusion that it's a scum special only comes from the fact no one's chosen to say anything, not from the role itself.

[copper223]

No. The wording was a "non-Morbid betrayer". There is at least one "non-Morbid betrayer" on the lynch. They can't possibly be Morbid. Lynx was Morbid.

Once again you fail to see the point, if lynx can't be scanned, you can't tell if he is morbid, non morbid or something else, so you have to say at least one in this case, there is nothing in lynx's PM to support this however.

[copper223]

Seems to me that would be dependent on how the scum player chose to claim the role.

Seeing that Lynx's role is incredibly powerful, I could maybe imagine having unscannable town just to create ambiguity in the results and not allow them to be completely game breaking. My conclusion that it's a scum special only comes from the fact no one's chosen to say anything, not from the role itself.

Unless said town is unware of not being checkable, why the swear word would they be on the lynch?

[CaskOfAmontillado]

Why is Medea playing against their win-con if they are scum, by lurking like this they are painting a giant target on their back. If they stop lurking and produce content I dislike and nobody else wants to pick between us 5, as they should, I will think about it.

I already quite dislike the content they have so far. The lurking has really become immaterial.

[Bookitty]

I'm not unscannable nor immune to investigations, for the record. (I say this in case Kthxbye gets killed; it might help narrow things down after my flip. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it.)

Let's assume for a moment that you and copper are right and there is unscannable {something} on the lynch wagon. I quoted this before:

One, at least one! There are at least one non-Morbid betrayer involved in my demise!

Morbid are the town. Non-Morbid are the non-town. It CANNOT be an unscannable townie. It just can't, unless you're going to assume everything Ffery said here was a lie.

[copper223]

This is the last time I try.

Case 1
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is non morbid but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 2 non morbid on the lynch.

Case 2
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is morbid but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being exactly 1 non morbid on the lynch.

Case 3.
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is euforic aligned but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 1 non morbid and 1 euforic on the lynch.

As you can see, in all cases the phrasing the mod used is applicable, since we have no reason to believe there is a third party at the current time and I don't see why a morbid aligned would try to screw us over on purpose, we make the assumption this blank player is also scum.

[Catastrophe]

Seeing that Lynx's role is incredibly powerful, I could maybe imagine having unscannable town just to create ambiguity in the results and not allow them to be completely game breaking. My conclusion that it's a scum special only comes from the fact no one's chosen to say anything, not from the role itself.

Right, the thing is, it seems like a lot of players have passive, triggered abilities and they don't know what they are. It would make sense for either town or scum not to know that they were unscannable, since having that ability spelled out in your role PM pretty much confirms that there is a scanner in the game.

Morbid are the town. Non-Morbid are the non-town. It CANNOT be an unscannable townie. It just can't, unless you're going to assume everything Ffery said here was a lie.

My conception of an unscannable player (scum or town) is that if they're on the wagon they cause the wording to be changed from "there were X non-morbid players" to "there were at least X non-morbid players" or some other non-definitive statement. Just because the mod said that there was at least one scum player doesn't mean that the player causing the result wording to be vague is also scum.

[Kthxbye]

I'm more or less just annoyed at this point that a role PM states the word "exactly" and yet the flip does not match the pure definition of "exactly".

It's a role PM made by the MOD that isn't being treated as it's written.

Basically, if there is no clarification to why there isn't an "exact" number of non-Morbid players on the Lynx wagon LIKE HIS FREAKING ROLE PM BLATANTLY AND EXPLICITLY STATES, then Lynx died for no reason at all and we are back to squire one but down 2 Morbid. I feel bad for Lynx most of all since he used his ability as written in the correct play and yet we are left with no actual information from it.

It's not cool and I'm gonna have to get over this before I can rationalize why the number of non-Morbid players on the Lynx wagon isn't "exact" and continue to try and find scum.