↑copper223 wrote:From my pov you are forwarding scum agenda, that's why I think you may be scum, some of the things you brought up also make very little sense and in some posts it looks like you are arguing a position you have to keep rather than one you know to be true, but if I had to go on gut or past experience with Boo I might still say town, I don't know if you play similarly as scum and if I can make that call based on that.
Can you clarify how I'm forwarding a scum agenda, please?
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
↑Bookitty wrote:Can you clarify how I'm forwarding a scum agenda, please?
What do you think? I believe there are 2 scum on the wagon and one is an uncheckable, you spent the last 5 hours arguing with me that it's not the case.
Didn't consider that. I'll have to think that over.
On the second thing: You're saying it's an anti-scum power. While I agree that depriving scum of information hurts them, I think it hurts town more. If we lose roleflips upon death, scum will later be able to get away with fakeclaiming things. If a player gets NK'ed or lynched without fully claiming, scum can later claim that role and town would be none the wiser that scum is claiming the role of a dead person.
P-Edit: I didn't consider the implications of Kthx claiming before we had any flips.
I think that's not a provable assertion either way. I also think that bringing up third party is just needless -- if you think there are two scum on the wagon, why talk about third party?
Here's why third-party discussion is SO meaningless:
We know Policy Lynch was killed last night.
We know Brantz jailkept CoA (verified by FTL's announced failed vig).
To believe there is a third-party killing role, you have to believe either they killed Policy Lynch too (which seems unlikely, since I think it was obvious he would be the nightkill as the most universally read town) or that they targeted CoA, who was a primary scumread of most people and would have been a perceived easy lynch for today imo.
If third party killed Policy Lynch and scum targeted CoA, CoA is town. I find this unlikely, but I guess it's possible.
If third party targeted CoA and scum killed Policy Lynch, that would be third party following the expressed town will. That would be odd.
I think it's way more likely that there is no third party killing role. If they're not killers, they aren't the concern for today imo. So why hedge about it and go into the whole non-Morbid thing when for our purposes non-Morbid pretty much has to be scum-scum, not third party?
@Tool: We lose the pro-town power that Kthx has if he's dead. Anti-scum = pro-town. I think Kthx's power makes more sense for town than scum. I don't understand what you are saying at all.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
On the path to becoming yourself, you'll need to choose alignment over validation from others, peace over addictive chaos, and being misunderstood over false acceptance. --TheHolisticPsychologist
↑Bookitty wrote:If third party killed Policy Lynch and scum targeted CoA, CoA is town. I find this unlikely, but I guess it's possible.
For clarity: I think it's likely that CoA is town. I find it unlikely that scum would take out CoA by preference.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
↑Bookitty wrote:@Tool: We lose the pro-town power that Kthx has if he's dead. Anti-scum = pro-town. I think Kthx's power makes more sense for town than scum. I don't understand what you are saying at all.
You know what, I don't even think this really matters. If it becomes more relevant at some point we can talk about it some more but for now I feel like this is just argument for the sake of argument. I guess the only important thing here is that I think it would suck for town to not get role flips.
@Boo
I also don't believe there are third parties, that was not hedging, it was showing you how the mod phrasing could reffer to any alignment for the uncheckable.
@tool: We agree. I don't know why you think otherwise. I said I thought Kthxbye was likely town because his role was anti-scum, ergo, pro-town, and that it would be a negative utility role for scum.
I don't know how I could have been more clear.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
↑Bookitty wrote:@tool: We agree. I don't know why you think otherwise. I said I thought
Kthxbye was likely town because his role was anti-scum
, ergo, pro-town, and that it would be a negative utility role for scum.
Ah. See, the bolded is where this starts to get problematic for me.
We only partially agree. You say it's anti-scum, and while I agree that losing role flips would be bad for scum I assert that it is far more detrimental to town. Yes, it's anti-scum. It's way more anti-town. Therefore I don't agree with the argument that his role makes him town based on the assumption that it's an anti-scum role.
As a matter of fact, scum having this PR
could
help explain why Kthx claimed when he did -- as scum, he would know he wasn't in trouble of being NK'ed, and forgot that from a townie's point of view claiming would put him in danger.
To be entirely clear: I am not saying that I necessarily see Kthx as scum. I'm saying that Boo's reasoning here doesn't make sense to me. As a matter of fact I'm starting to believe a theory that might exclude the possibility that Kthx is scum. I want to get more coordinated with TSO before I talk about it.
↑Catastrophe wrote:losing role flips would be bad for scum I assert that it is far more detrimental to town. Yes, it's anti-scum. It's way more anti-town. Therefore I don't agree with the argument that his role makes him town based on the assumption that it's an anti-scum role.
Okay. Kthxbye dies, we lose this role. We don't lose the role flips unless he dies. If he's scum, then we lynched scum and I am not going to cry over losing the role PMs. If he's nightkilled (what I think is most likely) he's not going to be the primary target tonight anyway imo, so unless you're suggesting that he's the lynch for today, I don't understand your logic at all here.
It's possible that he was given a scumrole that punishes town for lynching him. I just don't think it's the most likely situation. I don't understand your reasoning that "losing the role PMs hurts town more, thus it's a scum role." By the same logic, any pro-town role could be considered as anti-town because it's going to hurt town when it's gone.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
Okay, so instead of continuing to rehash the same points over and over again for another three pages, lets move on to discussion about what should happen today?
We are either lynching off the wagon (pool is FTL, Me, Medea, CoA, Krystal, and Tier). For reasons everyone seems to be in agreement on Me, FTL, and CoA should be completely off the table today. So that limits that pool to Medea, Krystal, and Tier.
OR
We lynch on the wagon (Pool of Boo, Cata, Kthx, Ghato, Copper). I actually find the reasons that we shouldn't kill kthx today based on the flips to be reasonable, and I have mild to strong townreads on everyone else on the wagon except Ghato who's only points come from his claimed role, but we need him to come back to see more on that. So realistically people are right, we should probably lynch off the wagon today.
UNVOTE:
I am leaning medea at the moment, but I'm not sure of how many votes are on them so will not vote yet. We need Krystal to show back up today too, though I notice they disappeared well before the end of day yesterday, and didn't really seem to be interested in participating after their prod either.
↑copper223 wrote:Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is euforic aligned but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:
At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 1 non morbid and 1 euforic on the lynch.
Are you saying the non-town faction is called euphoric? How do you know?
↑copper223 wrote:Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is euforic aligned but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:
At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 1 non morbid and 1 euforic on the lynch.
Are you saying the non-town faction is called euphoric? How do you know?
If I just caught a scumslip and my biggest townread turns out to be scum I'm happy.
I'd like to lynch between medea and krystal if this is a ruse.
The 1 or 2 scum discussion should stop. I have an opinion on the matter but, frankly, we cannot be completely sure. The whole unscannable can be town or scum thing is even more useless. Continue that terrible thread-clogging post-game.
