Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Heartless]

definitely

[Heartless]

my townreads are: elle, dave, Whatisswag, Kaboose, titus

[Kaboose]

Ugh I don't like Swag. I like Grib. I don't like Elle.

[Heartless]

well i don't like your face

[Lone Ranger]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[elleheathen]

Instead of attacking elle for voting you, please respond to Heartless's suspicions.

I'm attacking elle for possibly faking her read of me. Unless you want something from me, kindly step off.

That was then. This is now.

Do you expect that reads won't change? Is that why you slacked - got a little comfy with those townreads on you?

Like I said, there was even shit that you'd do that I'd write off because I was like:

I don't even care that you said that because you're town.

For examples, this:

elle, the more you lurk, the less I care about lynching elsewhere.

lol, I love that this comes right after one of my posts. Srsly.

Or this:

Also, opinions on whether or not elle had a minor scumslip in 274? Anyone can answer, except maybe elle.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

And this:

I still don't like your implication that you know davesaz is town.

And I still don't like your implication that that's what I'm implying - so I guess we're even.

[elleheathen]

And then take those last two above again and combine it with:

You coming into today with this?

dave, how do you feel about elle's multiple attempts at buddying you? I can't recall if I ever asked.

Are you just trying to stoke a fire here?
I especially don't understand this because you think I'm buddying him when I defend him against swag's attack. And yet...

If I'm scum buddying him why worry over:

My current problem with elle is her association with davesaz

Or why feel the need to point out this:

Do you always jump to conclusions about whether there is a point to a question or not, or only when you're scum?

Do you typically like to wait until deadline to lynch - or just as scum?

I thought this was funny.

To try and associate us

together

.

[Lone Ranger]

I had no idea why Grib was being townread tbh. What was your reasoning Elle?

[elleheathen]

also

lone ranger

knows me from tth, implies familiarity w/ tth

also a smartass

sthar or jingle?

maybe thor, but thor hates my guts i doubt it

i would say f16 it's kind of his writing style, but he doesn't know tth...

hm......

Hahah.
If it's Thor...
Well, at least it would explain why we instantly butted heads. lol

[elleheathen]

I had no idea why Grib was being townread tbh. What was your reasoning Elle?

Everything he wrote, I was like:

That's so town.
That's coming from town.

That's all I remember thinking when doing the reads list and being too lazy to quote 10 things to literally only say the above to.

[elleheathen]

What are your thoughts on Grib now?

[Grib]

That was then. This is now.

Do you expect that reads won't change? Is that why you slacked - got a little comfy with those townreads on you?

It's very easy to change reads when there was no basis for them in the first place.

Like, I doubt you looked at all of my posts, shrugged, and went "Oh shucks! I don't care that he said xyz, because he's town!" for kicks.

You don't call someone "obvious town" and then turn around and vote for them because a slot that hasn't been active for weeks said so. Besides, the only person who's actually given reasons for townreading me is Green Crayons. Anyone else has either not said anything or gave vague reasons (like you).

Are you just trying to stoke a fire here?
I especially don't understand this because you think I'm buddying him when I defend him against swag's attack. And yet...

Buddying, white-knighting, whatever. Deliberately attaching yourself to him. Give it whatever label helps you sleep at night.

To try and associate us

together

.

The fuck you mean

I'm

trying to associate you? You've done plenty of that on your own.

My newest problem with you is that you're sheeping bullshit. You didn't even wait a hot second before you bandwagoned, and it's sketchy as hell.

[Titus]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

[Titus]

Elle would have a really good reason to know there are two scum on that wagon if she's the third.

Jumping on LR with a "how do you know there are 3 scum" is the type of reaction you could expect from someone who either plays closed setups or didn't read the setup at the beginning. Scum who know how many there are on their team have less incentive to look in the OP and see that this is spelled out in the setup.

Next step: Look to see if elle has made any other wrong assumptions about the setup.

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

VOTE: elleheathen

You have likely just established Elle as deep town. There is zero scum motivation in her actions either. I can tell by reactions, she's more of a gut player who plays out the undercurrent of the game. A sheeper if you will.


@Elle, explain me the Grib case. Why don't you move to Swag?

[Grib]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

[Green Crayons]

@Heartless:

ok gc, why are you voting dave?

I ISO'd my four suspicions from yesterday (elle, dave, Ranger, Fairies/Picard), and picked the one that bothered me the most.

this is a remarkably shitty scum pool

i'd really like to know how you came up with these names

Well good thing it isn't a scum pool.

[Green Crayons]

Elle would have a really good reason to know there are two scum on that wagon if she's the third.

Jumping on LR with a "how do you know there are 3 scum" is the type of reaction you could expect from someone who either plays closed setups or didn't read the setup at the beginning. Scum who know how many there are on their team have less incentive to look in the OP and see that this is spelled out in the setup.

Next step: Look to see if elle has made any other wrong assumptions about the setup.

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

VOTE: elleheathen

You have likely just established Elle as deep town. There is zero scum motivation in her actions either. I can tell by reactions, she's more of a gut player who plays out the undercurrent of the game. A sheeper if you will.

I more or less agree with this. I also think Grib's Post 940 and Post 941 are also complaining about (not the best, but still) town play.

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: dave
VOTE: Mala

[Titus]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

[Green Crayons]

@Grib:

It's very easy to change reads when there was no basis for them in the first place.

Like, I doubt you looked at all of my posts, shrugged, and went "Oh shucks! I don't care that he said xyz, because he's town!" for kicks.

You don't call someone "obvious town" and then turn around and vote for them because a slot that hasn't been active for weeks said so. Besides, the only person who's actually given reasons for townreading me is Green Crayons. Anyone else has either not said anything or gave vague reasons (like you).

Heartless's confidence and newness to the game connotes (even if on a subconscious level) a strong trustworthiness quality that is superficially persuasive.

His comments about your play has caused me to question my very solid town read. His play has gotten Ranger to immediately call him town (but she just throws those claims out like candy, see Mala, so whatever). His presence has been persuasive enough to motivate Kaboose to inquire about Heartless's opinion on Kaboose's suspicions.

So, what I'm saying, is that the Heartless-effect is not limited solely to elle. Combine that with elle's developed play that you have recognized - after almost hitting lynch, she has checked-out to a degree as disaffected town - and elle's sudden departure from her strong town read on you and sheeping Heartless to voting you looks completely natural, not scummy.

[Green Crayons]

^^^ For clarification: the confidence + newness is what's superficially persuasive.

Heartless's substantive observations - which are certainly buttressed by the Heartless-effect in terms of presentation and persuasiveness, so it's not like some clear cut dividing line - have varying degrees of merit.

[Whatisswag]

Uhh, first thing I want to say is that we have quite a bit of votes (and vote switches)

[Whatisswag]

My replies to specific parts of the posts were underlined.

I keep seeing things from Swag that are setting off a bell in my head as manufactured town things. As well as just things that don't add up. Here are some examples:

I think we should hypoclaim recruiting mason and who we will target n1

Shit. i just forgot there are masons. But whatever.

Second post in the game he's wanting to hypoclaim recruiting masons. Then one of his more recent posts he claims he forgot there were masons in the game. Now I know that's quite a gap, but he came in to the game with a plan of some sort or else why even bring up the hypoclaim? So how do you actually forget there are masons? Not to mention Swag was the one trying to direct the mason's recruiting as well before forgetting about them.

Well, sorry, if that is your problem.

There is a really weird interaction between NJAC and Grib, just like the interaction between elle and LR. If one turns out scum, I expect the other one to be scum too.

Ok, Grib and NJAC probably not scum team

So here he says Grib and NJAC are most likely a team if one flips scum. Then goes back and says they're probably not a team. So I guess the question now is what Swag thinks of Grib? I think Grib is town. But NJAC flipped town, and Swag thought they weren't a team, so it makes me wonder if he thinks Grib is scum? So I guess Swag I'm asking what your read on Grib is now that you have the information you have on NJAC?

Grib does not change, I already believed that NJAC and Grib were not both scum, so that NJAC flip tells me nothing about Grib. He stays the same.

Btw, dave is probably going to get killed tonight.

Why would you guess at this? Like this is what seems like the manufactured town slip. A scenario that popped in my head was Swag saying this, and then NKing someone else to try and show us he has no clue who is dying at night. That was the only thing I saw when I read this was scum trying to misdirect, suggesting one death so that when another happened you've got "proof" you might not be scum or something.

I very obviously hard defended dave like some time long ago. I would rather get lynched if you all can believe dave is town

If NJAC is scum, I will discuss this another time.

If NJAC is town,

I wonder if scum purposely moved the wagon off elle to NJAC. (If this is the case, all fingers will point at Kaboose)

I wonder which of the other lurkers are scum.

Then this post threw me a bit too. Now I'm a realistic thinker, and from experience I've learned that very few times the D1 lynch doesn't hit a town member. So I can understand there's still something left to figure out here even after the hammer. But I love how he casually points to me if NJAC flipped town. There was no one under the gun as far as "If NJAC flips town, I bet such and such and such and such are partners!" Now earlier there was the Grib and NJAC comment, but he fell off that and declared them probably not a team in between that comment and the flip. However, he goes and tells us that if NJAC flips town all fingers point at me! This just looks to me like someone who knew how the flip was going. Like a slight slip not to call out possible partners because there were none, but to go ahead and lay some bait for the next lynch.

The NJAC wagon was kind of random. And you are the one who started it. You were not on elle's wagon either. Makes me think you shifted the wagon to NJAC.

[Whatisswag]

@Heartless:

ok gc, why are you voting dave?

I ISO'd my four suspicions from yesterday (elle, dave, Ranger, Fairies/Picard), and picked the one that bothered me the most.

off dave.

[Whatisswag]

@dave:

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

I'm not following what you are saying.

It is a VT claim to say you're not recruited. VT claims in a mason game narrow down the range of players who might be mason, and scum need to identify masons to eliminate them before LYLO (assuming the game gets that far). There is no good town motivation to claim, especially this early in the day.

There are scum reasons for doing it, in particular to fish for mason reactions like "how do you know anyone was recruited". Masons should keep their mouths shut BTW.

BS. Masons know not to say anything.

What I'm pointing out with it is that I think they would have recruited between:

Me. LR. GC. Grib. davesaz.

Since I wasn't, that leaves the other 4. And I'm pretty damn sure scum is in there.

I want scum to know I wasn't recruited. Because it increases the likelihood that they WERE.

And I get a warm feeling inside when I imagine them worrying about it, wondering when it'll come out, waiting, waiting.

No, just no. Stupid. You need a vote.

VOTE: elleheathen