Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Whatisswag]

Actually, elle has done some pretty town things that no one did. So now everything cancels out.

UNVOTE: elle

[Whatisswag]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

At least I found someone who thinks there are a high number of lurking scum. (Which happens to be between 1 and 3, so not THAT high after all)

[Whatisswag]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

At least I found someone who thinks there are a high number of lurking scum. (Which happens to be between 1 and 3, so not THAT high after all)

WAIT a minute, does that not mean you are like pointing at yourself?

[davesaz]

Umm, I probably would have missed this without the previous posts, but one way to read 968 is coaching elle to shut up.
Not enough to make a case by itself, but interesting.

[Heartless]

alright, all caught up now

gib
mala
greencrayons

^^^will lynch any of these they're all scum

I agree with the Grib and Malakittens scumreads, but I think Kaboose rounds out that ensemble a lot better than Green Crayons.

[Titus]

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?


@Dave, My scumgame is much better than that. Ask Grib (aka Snowvon). I scumhunt by supposing people take optimal actions based on what they know. Elle's play is suboptimal for scum there and I was explaining that to Grib.

[Titus]

alright, all caught up now

gib
mala
greencrayons

^^^will lynch any of these they're all scum

I agree with the Grib and Malakittens scumreads, but I think Kaboose rounds out that ensemble a lot better than Green Crayons.

Why are these players scum? Why isn't Swag on the list?

Can we get prods?

[Malakittens]

Score hi Titus!

I'm still VLa til Friday

[Armageddon]

@Titus: Who would you like prodded? Nobody has been inactive for more then 48 hours as of this post

Vote count Day 2.2

Players alive: 11

Players needed to lynch: 6

CptPicard

- 1 - Grib - (L-5)

elleheathen

- 1 - davesaz - (L-5)

Green Crayons

- 1 - Lone Ranger - (L-5)

Grib

- 2 - Heartless, elleheathen - (L-4)

MalaKittens

- 1 - Green Crayons - (L-5)

Whatisswag

- 1 - Titus - (L-5)

Players not voting: CptPicard, Kaboose, MalaKittens, Whatisswag


Mod notes: Malakittens is V/LA

Deadline is in

(expired on 2015-02-01 23:22:00)

[Kaboose]

I still don't see how Grib is even being considered scum at this point. I also am not sure how Elle hasn't been lynched yet based on how fast she piggy backed on Heartless like we all voted Heartless to be the town voice. Since when is it okay to ObvTown someone, and do a complete 180 on that slot when someone else comes in and says it's ObvScum? She didn't even have to talk you in to it Elle.

Also I love how Elle gets town read by Heartless while agreeing with them. Then I disagree with Heartless and all of a sudden...

my townreads are: elle, dave, Whatisswag, Kaboose, titus

Ugh I don't like Swag. I like Grib. I don't like Elle.

well i don't like your face

alright, all caught up now

gib
mala
greencrayons

^^^will lynch any of these they're all scum

I agree with the Grib and Malakittens scumreads, but I think Kaboose rounds out that ensemble a lot better than Green Crayons.

I'd like to lynch either Swag or Elle today.

[Heartless]

That has very little to do with whether or not you disagree with Anti and a lot more to with the fact that you're not fooling me, hon.

[Kaboose]

That has very little to do with whether or not you disagree with Anti and a lot more to with the fact that you're not fooling me, hon.

Well shit my gig is up then. Game solved, vote away.

[Heartless]

Happy to oblige.

VOTE: Kaboose

[Grib]

Titus, the thing about scum playing optimally is that it assumes 100% of the time scum aren't going to fuck up or make stupid decisions.

Swag is town. His posts are bad but not scummy.

[Heartless]

Grib, your Kaboose read is quite stale. What is it now?

[Grib]

@Grib:

Heartless's confidence and newness to the game connotes (even if on a subconscious level) a strong trustworthiness quality that is superficially persuasive.

His comments about your play has caused me to question my very solid town read. His play has gotten Ranger to immediately call him town (but she just throws those claims out like candy, see Mala, so whatever). His presence has been persuasive enough to motivate Kaboose to inquire about Heartless's opinion on Kaboose's suspicions.

So, what I'm saying, is that the Heartless-effect is not limited solely to elle. Combine that with elle's developed play that you have recognized - after almost hitting lynch, she has checked-out to a degree as disaffected town - and elle's sudden departure from her strong town read on you and sheeping Heartless to voting you looks completely natural, not scummy.

Sounds to me like this is only something that people fall for if they're not confident enough to think on their own. You say yourself it's superficial.

w/r/t elle, if she's town, the optimal play here is to hunt scum, not stay alive via baa baa baa'ing. Her recent play looks to be motivated by a stronger desire to stay alive and out of the spotlight than lynch scum, and the only people who are interested in survival are scum.

I'm not seeing the towny "natural" flow between town shutting down in the face of death > saying fuck it and voting "obvious" town because someone else said so.

The thing with townreads is that if someone else thinks they're scum, immediately agreeing and voting with them is suspect because you think your townread is town. When people suspect my townreads, short of a straight scumslip, I would never vote them without a really compelling case ("Grib is obviously scum" is not a compelling case). And even then, I'd have to think about it first.

Not to mention elle doesn't even really have to defend her actions because she gave no reasoning for townreading me in the first place, which is annoying. She tries to shift the focus of my argument to this

Do you expect that reads won't change? Is that why you slacked - got a little comfy with those townreads on you?

which is bad, and obviously not my point.

Grib, your Kaboose read is quite stale. What is it now?

He's in my "don't care, wouldn't mind lynching" pile.

[Grib]

my townreads are: elle, dave, Whatisswag, Kaboose, titus

but I think Kaboose rounds out that ensemble a lot better than Green Crayons.

What changed here? Be specific, please.

[Heartless]

Post 951 was made by Antihero, who apparently has a soft spot in his heart for scum.

Post 979 on is me. Hi, I'm TTH!

[Grib]

Hi.

Also, wow, that's annoying.

Please sign your posts.

[Green Crayons]

@Grib:

Sounds to me like this is only something that people fall for if they're not confident enough to think on their own. You say yourself it's superficial.

w/r/t elle, if she's town, the optimal play here is to hunt scum, not stay alive via baa baa baa'ing. Her recent play looks to be motivated by a stronger desire to stay alive and out of the spotlight than lynch scum, and the only people who are interested in survival are scum.

I'm not seeing the towny "natural" flow between town shutting down in the face of death > saying fuck it and voting "obvious" town because someone else said so.

1. Not confident =/= scum alignment.
2. Not playing as optimal town does not make someone not town. (This is the corollary to your correct observation in Post 988 that failing to play as optimal scum does not make one town.)
3. If you don't want to stay alive as town, you're playing wrong as town.
4. I guess we just disagree about whether elle-town shutting down would easily transition into sheeping a confident-looking replacee. Do you think elle's "shut down" is manufactured?

The thing with townreads is that if someone else thinks they're scum, immediately agreeing and voting with them is suspect because you think your townread is town. When people suspect my townreads, short of a straight scumslip, I would never vote them without a really compelling case ("Grib is obviously scum" is not a compelling case). And even then, I'd have to think about it first.

I'm not quite sure what your exact issue is with elle. In the quoted part of your post, it looks like it's the fact that she voted you on Page 37 after declaring you town back on Page 18. But you disclaim that very problem later in your Post 990 (it's "obviously not <your> point"). What is your point? That elle-town would never sheep a player who replaced in, looking confident and persuasive?

[Green Crayons]

@Heartless:

why is Kaboose scum?

[Heartless]

Kaboose tends to write walls, but most of the early real estate is taken by pointed swipes at people with no follow up. A good example of what I'm talking about is Post 174. The pointed response to awesomeusername, "What do you want to talk about? Would you like to talk about your slip in this post on GC and how you wanted to toss his name in with town reads mere sentences after a no read?" is especially off since there's no follow up by either party. The points raised on Whatisswag are relatively minor and don't form a core to a well developed read. This type of posting continues with examples such as: Post 194, Post 200, Post 249, Post 323, the list goes on.

The vote itself is very "sticky" and there's not much of an effort to develop the Ethanol read past the vote. There's no direct engagement of Ethanol nor is there any analysis of their posts. There's a forming read on dave in Post 323, but the vote doesn't move nor is there ever a great foundation for the dave scumread in the first place. The next vote on NJAC in Post 585 feels very unnatural and for show because he subverts the point of the vote by stating its purpose. For someone who seems to doubt himself and his own abilities (Post 323: " I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words...", among others) the rebuttals to attacks are quite abrasive. An example of this is the response to awesomeusername I provided earlier, Post 618, and Post 986.

The subsequent interaction with Lone Ranger is Awkward with a capital "A." Post 759 clearly implied either a town or scum read with not much indication that it could go either way. When pressed by Lone Ranger for reasons why it could be scummy, we see an arthritic backpedal with Post 765 and Post 767.

Despite the frequent walls, there's not much of a global outlook on the game and the opinions on slots are limited to only a handful of players. The lethargy in developing reads and pushing wagons stands in contrast to the prickliness that comes out when attacked, which gives a glimpse into the priority system at work: defense and survival. This is much more useful to scum than town.

I think Kaboose is scum.

[Heartless]

Hi.

Also, wow, that's annoying.

Please sign your posts.

I always capitalize my sentences while Anti never touches his shift key. Anti also tends to do weird things with typography because he's slightly insane. :p

Our writing styles are also quite different. You'll be able to tell the difference between us without us signing.

[Lone Ranger]

That's actually quite a good case. I fully agree that his backpedal on me and telling me he's trying to townread me was awkward. The thing is, so many things people are doing this game feel awkward and newbish so it is hard to get a feel for what's scummy-awkward. I'm going to take a better look at your case later when I'm home. Why do you have a townread on GC?

[elleheathen]

I'm not going to sell you a Grib case when I'm not sold on Grib. However, I will give more insight as to why

my

vote is on him.

I was townreading Grib for a long time, and like I outline in 955, even things he did that I thought were scummy I'd let slide because of that townread.

Before the NJAC switch, I was getting a really bad vibe on Grib with all of his constant attempts to get me to vote.

elle, instead of narrowing your lynchpool for silly reasons, why don't you vote and scumhunt?

Tell me whom you'd like dead and why.

I'd like you to scumhunt, or vote, or push someone, or at least do something that shows you aren't going to die quietly if you do end up being the lynch. It feels like you've given up and are just posting to post. I mean if your latest posts are your version of scumhunting, then forget what I've said.

Like, good for you for having a list of people you want to lynch, but it's completely meaningless if you're just going to sit there and not do anything about them.

elle, giving up when you're about to be lynched doesn't help town, and it only increases your chances of dying. Pretend you don't have votes on you and tunnel someone.

You can't be indecisive forever. The deadline is frozen, you have no excuse. Pick someone. Literally anyone. I almost don't care anymore.

The first couple, I could understand coming from town that was maybe just frustrated with me not voting and/or not being vocal about what I was thinking at that point - but the more it went on, the more I really felt like he just wanted me to do something,

anything

, that he could push as scummy.

And I'll admit, by end of day, I was pretty damn paranoid of everyone that was actually playing being scum because I felt like I'd been under seige by the whole scum team all day.