Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[elleheathen]

In response to:

Elle would have a really good reason to know there are two scum on that wagon if she's the third.

Jumping on LR with a "how do you know there are 3 scum" is the type of reaction you could expect from someone who either plays closed setups or didn't read the setup at the beginning. Scum who know how many there are on their team have less incentive to look in the OP and see that this is spelled out in the setup.

Next step: Look to see if elle has made any other wrong assumptions about the setup.

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

VOTE: elleheathen

You have likely just established Elle as deep town. There is zero scum motivation in her actions either. I can tell by reactions, she's more of a gut player who plays out the undercurrent of the game. A sheeper if you will.


@Elle, explain me the Grib case. Why don't you move to Swag?

[elleheathen]

Damnit.

[Titus]

Kaboose just went down a few notches...

He complains about how Elle hasn't been lynched... and is voting no one.

Elle, I like the balls in the pushback and that does make sense. Grib's not usually that vocal. I am though. So it's not a total scumcase but it's something definitely worth looking into.

[Grib]

Phonepost, so no quotes. I am lazy.

1. Not confident =/= scum alignment.

Yes.

2. Not playing as optimal town does not make someone not town. (This is the corollary to your correct observation in Post 988 that failing to play as optimal scum does not make one town.)

Yes. Still, not playing optimally can make you look scummy, and if you look scummy, people are going to want to lynch you. If elle is town, don't want to be distracted by scummy town.

Meh. People's play styles aren't really something I can control and it annoys me so let's drop this.

3. If you don't want to stay alive as town, you're playing wrong as town.

There is a difference between wanting to stay alive (to kill scum) and wanting to stay alive (to survive).

4. I guess we just disagree about whether elle-town shutting down would easily transition into sheeping a confident-looking replacee. Do you think elle's "shut down" is manufactured?

I'm not sure how you'd manufacture a shut-down. It's essentially lurking, popping in to comment on things without actually doing anything.

I have a problem with separating bad play and scummy behavior, which is why I'm trying to get other opinions on this.

I'm not quite sure what your exact issue is with elle. In the quoted part of your post, it looks like it's the fact that she voted you on Page 37 after declaring you town back on Page 18. But you disclaim that very problem later in your Post 990 (it's "obviously not <your> point"). What is your point? That elle-town would never sheep a player who replaced in, looking confident and persuasive?

My point is her play annoys me and it'd be great if I could figure out if it's scummy or bad town.

Also, I don't find Heartless to be persuasive at all (haven't read their Kaboose wall yet but we'll see), but that's not really something we can argue objectively.

fake edit: elle, I don't want you to post so that I can find something scummy in everything you say; I want you to be post to be town enough that I don't feel like pushing to see your flip, if you are in fact town.

fake edit: Titua, you know my meta here is a lot less fluffy and timid.

[Grib]

I stand by every single quote in 999.

You understand that being scared of voting in mafia is incredibly dumb.

[Heartless]

Also, I don't find Heartless to be persuasive at all (haven't read their Kaboose wall yet but we'll see), but that's not really something we can argue objectively.

Overall, I think you're attacks are very potshot-ish and your clenched, rigid, unnatural approach to your reads is scummy. Anti picked up on that and I did too. The

only

thing that gives me reasonable doubt here is this post:

Pick someone. Literally anyone. I almost don't care anymore.

Also, why do you care

at all

.

You're voting me so you think I'm scum, yeah?
So why all the concern that your scumread isn't voting anyone?

I care because town or scum, your indecisiveness is pissing me off and, as far as I'm concerned, it makes you a useless blob. But to be honest, it's not even just you, I'm being crabby in general for lots of reasons. It doesn't help that I was really looking forward to playing this game and then half the players decided to replace out all at once and we hit a rut and I stopped having fun.

I'm voting you because I never bothered unvoting.

UNVOTE:

I'm down with lynching an inactive because fuck waiting for replacements.

Looking at Grib's ISO through the lens of someone who's disappointed and tired, the style might make sense.

[Grib]

I'm going through a bit of an apathy spell and people tend to find me scummy no matter my alignment.

As for my "unnatural" approach to reading people, I don't care. It's my play style and not something that can really be fixed in the span of one game. I'd be happy to hear constructive criticism post game, if you have anything to say specifically about it.

[Heartless]

Why do you have a townread on GC?

I'm not sure why Anti is scumreading GC, but I might be townreading him because I appreciate and can relate to his posting style. I'm not sure.

[elleheathen]

Why don't you move to Swag?

This combination should somewhat explain:

NJAC

- 7 - Kaboose,

Cheetory6

, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Grib, davesaz, Whatisswag - (L-0) (LYNCH!)

There's

at least

two scum there.

+

I would probably cross out swag from it too because I feel like if he were scum, he'd have just waited for mala to hammer it.

Because believe me, I'm no fan of swag's slot. Especially when he was willing to hammer me and was reading me as null TOWN. But trying to sort him, to read him, to even ask him a damn question is just...

Like, seriously, good luck with this:

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?

Welcome to my headache.

He's done towny shit. He's done scummy shit. And my read on him still very much applies.

But I'm not going to waste my vote to pressure him.

[elleheathen]

I stand by every single quote in 999.

You understand that being scared of voting in mafia is incredibly dumb.

Grib, this is one of our early interactions on those posts where you're trying to get me to vote:

I'd like you to scumhunt, or vote, or push someone, or at least do something that shows you aren't going to die quietly if you do end up being the lynch. It feels like you've given up and are just posting to post. I mean if your latest posts are your version of scumhunting, then forget what I've said.

All I've been doing up until the last few days was doing something to show I wasn't going to 'die quietly'.
Now, though?
Yeah, that's a pretty accurate assessment of me, for once.

I feel like I'm one of the only towns actually

trying

in this game -

and that my trying is only leading to my lynch, that everything I say is just one more thing to pick apart while trying to ISO dive me for excuses or try and use associative bullshit pre-flips

. I have pretty much given up - I have a very 'why bother' attitude atm.

So go for it. Just lynch me.

Here, let me help.

I'm just a VT.

At least with killing me, you'll know it's at least not chancing a mason lynch.

And if I were a mason, I'd be recruiting either GC or Cheetory - probably GC, tonight.

Not that I think it will help you much, at this rate.

If town are the ones that are the absentees, then they did us a huge disservice and we were screwed from the start of this.

And if it's scum, that's a sad way to have to win if you have to afkout to get past a day.

Good luck, town - you're going to need it.

So no, it's not 'scared to vote', it's 'not helping scum lynch me'.

So you continuing to press it is what didn't give me good vibes.

Like I said,

And I'll admit, by end of day, I was pretty damn paranoid of everyone that was actually playing being scum because I felt like I'd been under seige by the whole scum team all day.

And I really do believe this:

NJAC

- 7 - Kaboose,

Cheetory6

, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Grib, davesaz, Whatisswag - (L-0) (LYNCH!)

There's

at least

two scum there.

I just have no idea who those two are.

So when you came in with:

dave, how do you feel about elle's multiple attempts at buddying you? I can't recall if I ever asked.

It read to me as if you were just trying to start shit, so you were a damn good place to start.

[Heartless]

I'm going through a bit of an apathy spell and people tend to find me scummy no matter my alignment.

As for my "unnatural" approach to reading people, I don't care. It's my play style and not something that can really be fixed in the span of one game. I'd be happy to hear constructive criticism post game, if you have anything to say specifically about it.

Your pushes have a lot of holes in them. I also can't really track how your reads change over time and you always tend to be on easier people to push (dave and elle), while your scumread that actually has potential (Kaboose) goes nowhere.

A few of your posts also have a distinct "stick up the butt" feel. It could be accounted for by the post I quoted, though.

[Grib]

A few of your posts also have a distinct "stick up the butt" feel. It could be accounted for by the post I quoted, though.

Gee, thanks.

I don't really think dave is an easy push.

[Green Crayons]

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

[elleheathen]

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

If you think that there were enough town actually present for that to even happen. I don't.

Riddle wasn't here.
Corpses wasn't here.
NJAC wasn't voting himself.
I wasn't voting NJAC.

All town from my POV.

So that'd still be 7/9, and would still guarantee that at least one scum had to be on it.

And as I've said before, that's exactly the type of lynch scum loves/doesn't care about being apart of. Because it's very difficult to use any kind of VCA on a 'deadline lurker lynch'.

[Lone Ranger]

I disagree with both of you. The people who were online voted. I can't see how it is alignment indicative at all.

[elleheathen]

I disagree with both of you. The people who were online voted. I can't see how it is alignment indicative at all.

Nitrogen narcosis or scum?













...Before you jump down my throat, I'm kidding, LR.

[Green Crayons]

I disagree with both of you. The people who were online voted. I can't see how it is alignment indicative at all.

Except for Mala, eh?

[Heartless]

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

Trying to analyze a last second deadline wagon on a lurker seems like an exercise in futility.

[Heartless]

A few of your posts also have a distinct "stick up the butt" feel. It could be accounted for by the post I quoted, though.

Gee, thanks.

D'awwww... Yeah, I was mean.

I'm sorry, Gribby. Sometimes I just kind of say things and they don't really come out right. Either that, or it's that really I'm kind of a bitch and I just don't filter myself when I should. I haven't figured it out yet. :S

[Green Crayons]

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

Trying to analyze a last second deadline wagon on a lurker seems like an exercise in futility.

(shrug)

I'm sure scum was both on and off the NJAC wagon. I just think that there is a strong justification for scum to not vote NJAC if not required to do so.

[Grib]

So when you came in with:

dave, how do you feel about elle's multiple attempts at buddying you? I can't recall if I ever asked.

It read to me as if you were just trying to start shit, so you were a damn good place to start.

I was using that to try to get a better read on davesaz, since I found his original reply a little fencesitty (although the question was about a specific instance of buddying rather than the multiple cases I've seen as a whole).

Which actually reminds me:

I know that was noncommital, it was intended to draw out more discussion which could either confirm the discomfort or explain it.

And what is your conclusion?

D'awwww... Yeah, I was mean.

I'm sorry, Gribby. Sometimes I just kind of say things and they don't really come out right. Either that, or it's that really I'm kind of a bitch and I just don't filter myself when I should. I haven't figured it out yet. :S

I'm not offended or anything. I understand there's going to be a rift between how I want to present myself and how my play comes across in reality. But as long as people don't find me intolerable to play with, I'm not too worried about it.

w/r/t your case on Kaboose, I agree that some of his walls are shallow and there are several posts by him that I don't particularly like. But:

defense and survival. This is much more useful to scum than town.

See, this is basically what I've been trying to say about elle. Can you go into detail about your read of her for comparison? It's more useful to scum, yes, I completely agree, but what's tipping the scales here in terms of towniness?

[davesaz]

dave, how do you feel about elle's multiple attempts at buddying you? I can't recall if I ever asked.

Not comfortable at all.

She even asked me how I felt, to which I replied could be either scum or town. I know that was noncommital, it was intended to draw out more discussion which could either confirm the discomfort or explain it.

I would have sworn I'd replied to this question before, but can't find it. If it was asked I must have missed it.

Bolded for emphasis. It felt like she was trying a quid pro quo approach, I'll town read you if you'll town read me. Then when I slid towards scum reading her, she was saying it's strange that I would do that instead of working with her so that she could alleviate my concerns. She stopped doing it (IIRC) and then made a few posts that looked town. In retrospect it looks like she changed tactics to stop the slide.

[Whatisswag]

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?


@Dave, My scumgame is much better than that. Ask Grib (aka Snowvon). I scumhunt by supposing people take optimal actions based on what they know. Elle's play is suboptimal for scum there and I was explaining that to Grib.

elle's towny behaviour would be mentioned later when I have time.

My second strongest town read died in the night.

So now it is this:
davesaz- confirm town, whoever is targetting dave screw off.
Heartless- towny, both parts of the hydra display town behaviour even though their playstyles can be different.
Green crayons- a little bit town, his walls and his slightly aggressive behaviour is town. But the fact that he switches his playstyle when LR targets him jumps out to me
Lone ranger- a little bit town, this is gut
Titus- a little bit town, this is gut
elle- null
Grib- null, I cannot read this guy even though I played with him before.
Mala- a little bit scum, partially because both the original dude and the replacement is lurking, partially because awesome did not really do much in terms of giving reads.
Kaboose- a little bit scum. He seem somewhat different when I played with him, in a scummy way.
I cannot remember any other people.

[Whatisswag]

I would probably cross out swag from it too because I feel like if he were scum, he'd have just waited for mala to hammer it.

This is town observation.

Also HI THX FOR REPLACING HI

Now we just need a Riddle replacement and I'll be a happy camper.

Excitedness is pointing towards the town direction too.

There are 11 players left in the game and three scum.

and three scum.

and three scum.

Orly?

And this.

There may be. There are 11 players left in the game and three scum. You've narrowed down the pool to six players and then claimed that there are at least two scum in there. First off, what's the point?

What the point of sharing my thoughts? Really?
Maybe to share my thinking.
Maybe to see how people react to my thinking.
Maybe to see who agrees/disagrees and why or why not.

Secondly, your number is arbitrary - NJAC was a deadline lurker lynch that no one opposed.

Exactly the type of lynch scum loves. Deadline lynches with no need for reasoning.

And true, I wouldn't have voted it but I wasn't opposed to it, either - because NJAC's constant prod dodging was irritating. Doesn't mean that I don't think scum wouldn't have taken advantage of it.

Why were you not on it?

NJAC. First to confirm. 2/4, btw.

The fact that she still remembers this should earn her a thumbs up.

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

If you think that there were enough town actually present for that to even happen. I don't.

Riddle wasn't here.
Corpses wasn't here.
NJAC wasn't voting himself.
I wasn't voting NJAC.

All town from my POV.

So that'd still be 7/9, and would still guarantee that at least one scum had to be on it.

And as I've said before, that's exactly the type of lynch scum loves/doesn't care about being apart of. Because it's very difficult to use any kind of VCA on a 'deadline lurker lynch'.

I dont think scum would be this careful.

[Whatisswag]

And I believed I have mentioned quite a few times I think scum shifted the wagon from elle to NJAC. The reason why elle is still null is because I have nothing to show that it is true.