Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[killapenwin]

2 Night kills, so we possibly have more than a mafia to worry about.

vote: beastcharizard

because it is as good a place as any to start.

@mastin what where the alleged scumtells that led you to vote dave in the first place?

Mod Edit: Fixed bold tags

[Wickedestjr]

We've lost a lynch.

I have copper leaning scum at this point, but I'm not confident enough to risk the vengeful kill, so I don't think we should lynch him.

1. Can you explain what you mean by this?

Heartless on the other side appears more to just write me off as scum since I haven't contributed as much at this point. Also a bit on the OMGUS.

Earlier I saw that you scum read them, I asked why, and you didn't answer. 2. Can you please explain that as well? 3. Any new read developments?

Vote: beastcharizard

. Who is scum?

*Rereading now*: the night deaths do squat for my reads, need a day or two to look at the dave wagon and check some other things as well...

[copper223]

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game. Mastin is also likely scum, I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Phoneposting.

They are two very strabge kills. I don't give a shit what people say about NKA, they are weird kills. Need to take a serious look at Heartless and Mastin, they're either horribly wrong in their reads or they're sxum/SK

[Aneninen]

Sorry for being away since my 669.

(1) Because of that, I must have missed a couple of things here, and I think there were some questions I left unanswered. If they're still relevant, ask them again, please!

(2) How much time did we have 'till Deadline before the lynch Yesterday?

(3) I don't think that both of the kills have been strange. Eyestott has been no surprise, after all he claimed a PR. Dodgy? That's an interesting question. Did he claim or crumb anything?

(4) Also, this is important: if you're a Vig and we fail to lynch a scum Today,

do not kill

Tonight unless you're 100% sure that you kill a scum!

[Heartless]

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game. Mastin is also likely scum, I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

You usually throw suspicion on me because I'm not right enough, now it's that I'm too right?! I'm surprised this kind of pride is blinding you.

I think Anti is putting

way

too much stock into meta and AtE to read mastin here. I also think his good reads went tragically un-sheeped while his bad ones were. killa and Tean come to mind.
VOTE: mastin2

[copper223]

@TTH
More like when you suspect me it's hard to be objective...

Anti was driving the mislynches yesterday, he pushed a little on me and super hard on Dave at the end, you were not scumreading either and you previously made that really good post about Eyes and Dodgy that made me townread you, but funnily enough the vote on Dave stayed. That's very not TTH, I would expect you to come in and change it if you did not agree, instead by the time you started to express doubts the damage had been done. What Anti said about our interaction being sketchy, as a means to scumread me, is also true, where is our usual banter in this game?

This is how I see it (admittedly I couldn't check if Dodgy clumsily crumbed because of work, but barring that) the Eyestott kill is the optimal scum kill, the Dodgy kill is the SK messing with scum, I think Mastin is the SK and thinks Anti is scum, that comment about his scumhunting being fake as fuck when he is not town seems game related and the way they were discussing who to go on at the end of the day does not look like town interaction.

Killapen is back to being scummy (my reads this game have been embarassing), he asked me yesterday what he needed to do to prove himself, why would you say that to the guy you think is fake claiming? Also Beast? Yesterday was at the very least a mafia sided or more likely a mafia driven town, the guy was lurking, why is he suspect numero 1? Does not compute.

As for the third I just got negative vibes from Wicked's first post, is beast the designated mislynch for today?

[mastin2]

@mastin what where the alleged scumtells that led you to vote dave in the first place?

Well, it

was

just general overall scumminess, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, I want to make a special note to Dave since I'm unlikely to remember 'til postgame where I should be telling him:

Dave

, I was gone during the last day of deadline yesterday. But had I not been...I'd have unvoted. Me, the person strongest pushing you, would have unvoted off of your play that last day. Why? Because

you were actually being town

. I don't really have the ability right now to give you a description of what you did so differently to cause that change, but I think even you have a general sense of what you did that was different. So, uh...basically, free advice from me: do what you did the last day, ALL the time. You'll not regret it.

Also, awkwardly enough, I was going to come in today voting eyestott.

Best thing I have off the top of my head,

Vote: vettock

,
But I clearly need to give the game a rethink. In class right now, so no time right now; bit distracted. But do need to take another look at things.

[Heartless]

Anti was driving the mislynches yesterday, he pushed a little on me and super hard on Dave at the end, you were not scumreading either and you previously made that really good post about Eyes and Dodgy that made me townread you, but funnily enough the vote on Dave stayed. That's very not TTH, I would expect you to come in and change it if you did not agree, instead by the time you started to express doubts the damage had been done. What Anti said about our interaction being sketchy, as a means to scumread me, is also true, where is our usual banter in this game?

So now your extreme burden of proficiency argument shifts over to Anti? Who are you getting this meta from?
The vote

stayed

on davesaz? Excuse me, but we never voted davesaz until Anti did near the end of the day and that was a unilateral action on Anti's part. Antihero's been driving his hydra because I fell behind over the holidays and haven't set aside a block of uninterrupted time to catch up. Everything I've contributed to this game has been in bits and pieces and it's filled in from Anti's account of the game to me. I'm trusting his judgment because he's here and I'm not and, in this game, I'm acting more to manage

his

reads and kind of reign them in since he tends to be pretty erratic.

This is how I see it (admittedly I couldn't check if Dodgy clumsily crumbed because of work, but barring that) the Eyestott kill is the optimal scum kill, the Dodgy kill is the SK messing with scum, I think Mastin is the SK and thinks Anti is scum, that comment about his scumhunting being fake as fuck when he is not town seems game related and the way they were discussing who to go on at the end of the day does not look like town interaction.

These thoughts are borne out of a non-understanding of what Antihero's scum meta is like and how it contrasts to his town meta.
If you ever have time, I invite you to look at a few of Antihero's scum games and a town game and you'll catch on pretty quickly. (For reference, here's a scum game of his I read: Picking Simplicity, and here's a recent town for reference as "purple hero": Touhou: Makai Mix). For fun, you can also look at that C9++ game where we were SK. In the beginning, he was good about genuinely scumhunting because we were really trying to kill of the mafia relatively quickly. Once we did that, though, he went straight back to his old scum meta in LYLO. For whatever reason, this man has a

serious

and severe psychological hangup with not being town. He clams up and doesn't post. You should have heard the conversations I had with him that game; I had to yell and scream at him and threaten physical violence to get him to post at all during LYLO. Eventually, I just got tired and did all the posting myself because I couldn't keep it up. I kept my posts to a minimum because I wanted to lay low, but I didn't completely fall off the face of the earth like he does.

mastin was in that Touhou game I linked, so it also tells you a little about interactions between Anti and mastin.

Overall, you seem to think I have more power over this hydra than you think I do and I'm playing more of an auxiliary role right now than anything, though I didn't intend to.

[mastin2]

mastin was in that Touhou game I linked, so it also tells you a little about interactions between Anti and mastin.

He's not the only one, TTH. You read that game, you know how ANTI interacts with me.

[Heartless]

I think Mastin is the SK and thinks Anti is scum

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

ok, copper, u don't know me and mastin, so i'll give u a pass here.

if this were the case, tth and i's bodies would be laying in a ditch right now w/ multiple stab wounds.

also
UNVOTE:
VOTE: killa

[copper223]

@TTH
It's more that one side of the hydra is threat mitigation and the other is pushing scum agenda. I'll read the links during a very boring 3hrs train ride I need to take... sigh.

[Heartless]

Anti was driving the mislynches yesterday,

my opinions are what they are and i'll take the credit/blame after the game

[copper223]

Yes but I have no idea if they are genuine or not, nor am I blaming if you are town, look at my reads...

[Heartless]

@TTH
It's more that one side of the hydra is threat mitigation and the other is pushing scum agenda. I'll read the links during a very boring 3hrs train ride I need to take... sigh.

Ha! Because you're somehow privy to how

our

hydra dynamic is when a major section of it is in RL?! Piss off.

Who's the "threat mitigation"? Me? Because you're repeating

my

reads, so that doesn't add up.

Here's something you should know about Anti: he's very intelligent (though, he hides it sometimes), but he's

very

stubborn. Remember when we killed mollie in C9++? I had to do that with Jingle

behind his back because Anti absolutely wasn't going to let me do it.

If he's got his head in this game more than I do,

of course

I have to cede the vote to him and I can't control how much he listens to me.

[mastin2]

if this were the case, tth and i's bodies would be laying in a ditch right now w/ multiple stab wounds.

^That. There's NO player in this game I would kill over Anti. None. Don't give a damn about eyestott's tracker claim, or copper claiming vengeful. If I was scum, I'd want them dead N1.

So basically, your options are that we're both scum, HARDCORE buddying blatantly in-thread (in which case...lol), or you have to recognize that Anti and I

understand

and

get

each other. The scum might believe that it's possible to push a mislynch through on Heartless, or a mislynch through on me. But as long as one of us lives, so too shall the other because we won't allow it. Heartless is town. Period. I know him, I understand him, I can see his scumplay a mile away and instinctively grasp his townplay. So you want him gone, go through me first.

The scum will inevitably realize the error of their ways, though, and nightkill us, since, well...you know. Someone who can't be mislynched, and has both the potential and probability to hound the scum, not someone the scum want around. Yes, the dave lynch was a mistake, and yes I think copper is also town making Anti's push there

also

a mistake, but oh trust me. He's coming back, and I'm gonna be listening as I also come back. (Right now, though, my synergy's probably not so great since I'm still holding over reads from yesterday. I'll do the reset later when I have time to actually, well, reset.)

[mastin2]

Reads I don't think I'll be letting go of, Wicked and beast.
Heartless is the only 100%-never-changing read, though.

All other reads are fair game; they may or may not change, but are being reset to zero. (Even copper, though I'm

decently

certain he's town, in part because Heartless is alive; if copper were scum, I'd expect Heartless dead yet with copper as town, leaving him alive makes sense to create/maintain Heartless/copper tension. I do owe another look at him all the same, though.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1053 - TTH saying Dave is probably town (that's what I am assuming because she didn't want to lynch him)

As a side note, TTH, why did you not unvote Dave here?

1063 - More support for Dave being town, this time from Dodgy.

1068 - More support for Dave being town, this time from Copper. Who ironically makes the worst vote in history and hammers Dave right after making this comment. You taking the 'too scummy to be scum' line Copper?

1069 - Possibly the second worst vote in history comes from Vettrock. Like, where is his reasoning for Dave being scum in this post? The only thing I can see that can be attributed to Dave is this;

I think dave is the best option. He appears more town later, but I am going to write this off as scum trying to save themselves. He is definitely the best of any of the "non-vanity" wagons for today.
VOTE: dave

That is L-1.

Seriously. I'm probably voting Vettrock toDay. Maybe Copper.

davesaz (7) - Tean Samargo, Mastin2, Heartless,

beastcharizard

,

Wickedestjr

,

vettrock

,

copper223

My feelings on Dave wagon. I highly doubt all scum were on the Dave wagon but I want to lynch from the Dave wagon toDay and those are the people I want to vote for. Wicked is purple because I can't shake the feeling that he is SK.

1075 - Killa, why is this not a continuation of D1? It's like you're voting BC based on nothing more than what could be classified as an RVS vote.

1079 - Convenient time for you to come back. You should ISO me and answer any outstanding questions. You managed to avoid getting on the wagon as well. Well done.

If eyestott is no surprise for the kill, may I ask why you think Copper is still alive? I mean, his claim is the worst one for scum to have to deal with during the Days. Copper is prime target for kill if he's town, no?

1081 - Copper, why is Killa suddenly scum again? Your comment regarding your 'reads being bad' really, really feels disingenuous and forced. I really don't like it.

I mean, you're using reasons for Killa!Scum that you could have pushed yesterDay, why didn't you?

VOTE: Vettrock

[killapenwin]

2 Night kills, so we possibly have more than a mafia to worry about.

vote: beastcharizard

because it is as good a place as any to start.

@mastin what where the alleged scumtells that led you to vote dave in the first place?

Mod Edit: Fixed bold tags

thanks mod, I didn't have enough time to repost this morning.

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game. Mastin is also likely scum, I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

I am pretty sure I am not going to let a player say nothing of value all of day 1 and not press him day 2. Also the reason I am voting him is one of common sense, you seem to be soft defending him here by criticising the vote, which would be the second time you have softly defended him. 58.

Mastin vouched for him pretty hard too and based on nothing. Given that Dave flipped town there are question marks over Mastins' alignment but I'm not ready to push that until she explains herself. I see a potential scum team of BeastChar/Copper/Mastin and out of the 3 I'm going to press the one who has said nothing.

It doesn't make sense to lynch you today given that you are 'vengeful' because if you are not killed tonight you are going to be a definite target on tomorrows day lynch.

Mastin I am having doubts on and so lynching BeastChar is going to be a good tell on two players I have believe have questionable actions.

Sorry for being away since my 669.

(1) Because of that, I must have missed a couple of things here, and I think there were some questions I left unanswered. If they're still relevant, ask them again, please!

(2) How much time did we have 'till Deadline before the lynch Yesterday?

(3) I don't think that both of the kills have been strange. Eyestott has been no surprise, after all he claimed a PR. Dodgy? That's an interesting question. Did he claim or crumb anything?

(4) Also, this is important: if you're a Vig and we fail to lynch a scum Today,

do not kill

Tonight unless you're 100% sure that you kill a scum!

(2) There was about 18hours left, when copper hammered.

(3) Eyestott was an obvious target after he claimed PR, the Dodgy lynch might be worth looking into.

(4) Agreed.

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game. Mastin is also likely scum, I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

You usually throw suspicion on me because I'm not right enough, now it's that I'm too right?! I'm surprised this kind of pride is blinding you.

I think Anti is putting

way

too much stock into meta and AtE to read mastin here. I also think his good reads went tragically un-sheeped while his bad ones were. killa and Tean come to mind.
VOTE: mastin2

I am not following the point you are making about me and Tean at the end here.

@TTH
More like when you suspect me it's hard to be objective...

Anti was driving the mislynches yesterday, he pushed a little on me and super hard on Dave at the end, you were not scumreading either and you previously made that really good post about Eyes and Dodgy that made me townread you, but funnily enough the vote on Dave stayed. That's very not TTH, I would expect you to come in and change it if you did not agree, instead by the time you started to express doubts the damage had been done. What Anti said about our interaction being sketchy, as a means to scumread me, is also true, where is our usual banter in this game?

This is how I see it (admittedly I couldn't check if Dodgy clumsily crumbed because of work, but barring that) the Eyestott kill is the optimal scum kill, the Dodgy kill is the SK messing with scum, I think Mastin is the SK and thinks Anti is scum, that comment about his scumhunting being fake as fuck when he is not town seems game related and the way they were discussing who to go on at the end of the day does not look like town interaction.

Killapen is back to being scummy (my reads this game have been embarassing), he asked me yesterday what he needed to do to prove himself, why would you say that to the guy you think is fake claiming? Also Beast? Yesterday was at the very least a mafia sided or more likely a mafia driven town, the guy was lurking, why is he suspect numero 1? Does not compute.

As for the third I just got negative vibes from Wicked's first post, is beast the designated mislynch for today?

I said Eyestott was fakeclaiming, I don't think I have made much reference to your vengeful claim, possibly a little bit in 1011. Show me which post of mine you mean because I said nothing about your vengeful claim from the point you exposed it 797 to the 'what do I need to prove myself' proposition 885, which was my take on the logic behind the argument you made against me at that time. I feel this post is quite misleading of what actually happened.

Whilst we are on your vengeful claim, I don't see why not believing it outright is a scummy thing to do. I do have some doubts about it (there is no way I can know for certain), which is why if you are not killed tonight I think you will be a lead runner for the day lynch tomorrow (depending what happens to day of course).

@mastin what where the alleged scumtells that led you to vote dave in the first place?

Well, it

was

just general overall scumminess, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, I want to make a special note to Dave since I'm unlikely to remember 'til postgame where I should be telling him:

Dave

, I was gone during the last day of deadline yesterday. But had I not been...I'd have unvoted. Me, the person strongest pushing you, would have unvoted off of your play that last day. Why? Because

you were actually being town

. I don't really have the ability right now to give you a description of what you did so differently to cause that change, but I think even you have a general sense of what you did that was different. So, uh...basically, free advice from me: do what you did the last day, ALL the time. You'll not regret it.

Also, awkwardly enough, I was going to come in today voting eyestott.

Best thing I have off the top of my head,

Vote: vettock

,
But I clearly need to give the game a rethink. In class right now, so no time right now; bit distracted. But do need to take another look at things.

I don't think there is a lot of reasoning going on behind your reads right now, I don't think you are backing up your arguments with posts very well and just basing things on loose intuition.

Why are you voting Vettrock over BeastCharizard when both have posted just as much? I will not accept meta as a credible reason.

[killapenwin]

@all why are you letting beast say nothing all game?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I could lynch him.

Prefer Vettrock first though.

[killapenwin]

@BBT did 1093 explain your question in 1092?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Not really, no.

[killapenwin]

well then I don't understand your question, day 2 follows day 1 so it would be a continuation anyway. Beast is not contributing so voting him and putting pressure on should get him talking, if he doesn't talk what use is he as town?

I think that his flip will shed some light on Mastin and Coppers alignment, that is not an RVS vote it is one with purpose.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

vote: beastcharizard

because it is as good a place as any to start.

This isn't a vote with purpose.