Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[killapenwin]

why are you overlooking my connection to mastin/copper?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because you're looking at associatives without the relevant information.

[killapenwin]

They are defending someone who isn't even posting, I've linked examples. What would motivate them to protect someone who is not even posting?
I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say they are protecting a scum buddy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'd rather we lynch Vettrock.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

First of all, Copper, I've just found that you claimed Vengeful yesterday. In this case, you shall not be lynched Today even if someone scumreads you.
Think about this: 10 players are alive. If we lynch Copper and he

is

Vengeful, he uses his ability and that can hit a townie. At Night2, there may be two other kills. If both of them hits a different townie, on Day3 there will be 6 players. The setup contains PIKxxxx, so there will be at least 3 Mafias; lynching them will be impossible. Insta-Mafia win. We should avoid this situation at all costs!

Heartless, 1085 – neither the post, nor the vote makes sense.

Mastin, 1090 – why are you sure that Heartless is town? Personal experience?

BBT, 1092 – that part about Vettrock is interesting.

"If eyestott is no surprise for the kill, may I ask why you think Copper is still alive? I mean, his claim is the worst one for scum to have to deal with during the Days. Copper is prime target for kill if he's town, no?"

– was that for me? Alongside with the other questions?
As for Copper, see the part above!

KillaPenguin, 1093 – I don't agree certain things here (eg. I don't think Copper is a sure-lynch Tomorrow if he's still here and I don't see why we should all vote for Beast) but this is another town-post from him.

And I really want to see a Vettrock post!

[copper223]

@BBT
No reason to answer other than say you should look at your own play before criticizing others, maybe you would improve more.

@TTH
As if I would randomly go around insulting players or assume I know something about your interactions behind the scenes, all that ment was one of the two heads of the hydra was giving town reads that have proven to be almost 100% accurate and the other has botched both major pushes he made yesterday and started out with what looked like a questionable push on Mastin, which makes it plausible it's a strategy on your part if you are scum that one side of the hydra takes the heat and the other then makes people switch back to townreading you, because that's what happened to my personal read, so even when Anti was pushing on Dave or me for reasons I did not agree with and that seemed forced at times I was still townreading the hydra overall.

It would be a nifty way to play it, but of course I was instead insulting your brother's intelligence apparently or failing to understand he is a stubborn person, when if anything (assuming intelligence correlates to game savvy which I already find very questionable) if you are town I was wrongly diminishing you by saying you're good, but usually not that good, especially in a game you claim you only have had an auxilary function in.

@Killa
Clearly lynching me with 2 known PR's and me being alive today (which implies no vig.), when we know there are at least 4 town PR's because of the SK, is as boneheaded as the rest of town's play this game. It would totally be a relief believe me, at this point I'm trying to make sense of this game solely because I accepted I would play to my win conditions when I signed in and I am not the kind of person to ruin someone else's entertainment out of spite because I personally am having 0 fun with it, I was actually more happy working on a due diligence before I read this stuff.

[copper223]

I can find only 1 very minor role tell on Dodgy when he says he is not endorsing a full reveal (so does he have something to reveal?) and no crumb, I think it's very unlikely he was killed because of this.

Best guess is the SK was scumhunting, my 3 town VCA has Dodgy and Mastin as likely scum based on wagon participation for instance.

Dodgy did not like Mastin if Dave flipped town, Tean, Vettrock and Aneninen, as an alternative motive.

[Heartless]

It would be a nifty way to play it,

I think you're setting an unfair standard for Antihero,

especially

for Day 1, and you're scumreading his pushes because he doesn't think like you do. It's also unfair to compare the accuracy of his reads to mine because I wasn't here as long and therefore my sample size isn't as large. It's also easier to work from the town reads side (which I do) than the scum reads side (which Anti mostly deals with) simply because there

are

more town than scum.

I also think you're also pissed at me because I wasn't there enough. If it makes you feel better I acknowledge that it's true that I wasn't and I'm already getting enough grief from Anti about that. None of that makes us scum though, and your reasoning is speculative at best and based on this fantasy that I can make people townread me at will; I wish I had that kind of charisma.

And if it seems like I'm getting pissy with you, it's because I'm trying to re-enter this game but now I feel like I'm having to mediate a personality difference and two egos here. It's fairly annoying.

[Heartless]

As a side note, TTH, why did you not unvote Dave here?

Because what I got was from a cursory glance at the thread. I wasn't (and still am not) in the trenches like Anti was so he had executive control over the vote.

I've got exactly two things that require my attention, one of which will likely cause me to want to gouge the nearest person's eyes out. I'm pretty irritable right now, but depending on how a few things go I might become even more irritable so my mood here might take a descent straight into hell. Regardless, I told Antihero I'd be here so I'll suck it up and be here for him. It may not be pretty, but I'll get the town reads updated and look into seeing who the vote should settle on. It may or may not be on the right person already, I'm not sure.

[copper223]

VOTE: Mastin
The people that should be questioned today are those that led town yesterday.

[mastin2]

Mastin, 1090 – why are you sure that Heartless is town? Personal experience?

EXTENSIVE experience, yes.

It goes beyond personal experience. This isn't one or two games. This is built upon dozens upon dozens of games. (Fun fact, Antihero might not even remember this, but his scum meta really hasn't changed that much since 2008/2009. One of my first scumgames ever was replacing him in Lynch All Lurkers mafia, and if I looked at his scumplay then, I'm almost positive it'd be nearly identical to his current scumplay.) I've seen him as scum. On COUNTLESS other occasions, I've seen him as town. Now, I don't believe Antihero deliberately sabotages his scumplay...but he

does

make it really, REALLY obvious he's scum, in part because he's really, REALLY good at making himself be town.

Activity's not the only tell on him, but it's the most immediate. Antihero as scum lurks, lacks investment, is prone to flaking, and when present doesn't give much content in the first place. Antihero as town racks up one of the highest post counts in the game, is highly invested, quite a bit abrasive, commands a fair amount of control in the game, and hounds in on people.

That's just the basics. Fundamental basics. Of his play. If you knew him, you'd know it goes into SO much more. So I can tell you, he is town.

[Wickedestjr]

VOTE: Heartless
You know too much this game.

Can you explain? Heartless is a slot I’m having trouble getting a strong read on.

I need to think about what Dodgy's death means and why Killa and Wicked just opened up on Beast in particular.

What’s there to figure out? I already explained yesterday that I was giving beast and vettrock a free pass because I knew their lynches would yield close to nothing. But I can’t give players a free pass and also give them a clean slate the next day. They need to contribute, we have enough info for them to have thoughts. vettrock has expressed an intent to contribute.
-beast has made no promises of doing anything helpful.
-He’s not playing the game - he’s the secret backup mod if I didn’t know any better.
-I’ve played with town beast before and he put way more effort in our past game together, his play here is completely different.
-Your criticism of this bandwagon frustrates me.
-As I said before, I need to reread. I was wrong yesterday. If I wasn’t voting beast, I wouldn’t be voting right now.

Killapen is back to being scummy (my reads this game have been embarassing), he asked me yesterday what he needed to do to prove himself, why would you say that to the guy you think is fake claiming?

I’ve been strong town reading killa, but this seems like a really good point. Couldn’t find the evidence, myself, though. Post #?

Dave

, I was gone during the last day of deadline yesterday. But had I not been...I'd have unvoted. Me, the person strongest pushing you, would have unvoted off of your play that last day. Why? Because

you were actually being town

. I don't really have the ability right now to give you a description of what you did so differently to cause that change, but I think even you have a general sense of what you did that was different. So, uh...basically, free advice from me: do what you did the last day, ALL the time. You'll not regret it.

This seems a little bit convenient and hard to believe. Can you help

me

understand why you would have unvoted? You must have seen something strong if you were willing to unvote a player (so close to deadline) that you had been strongly scum reading all game…

[mastin2]

This seems a little bit convenient and hard to believe. Can you help

me

understand why you would have unvoted? You must have seen something strong if you were willing to unvote a player (so close to deadline) that you had been strongly scum reading all game…

Okay. So before, dave was kinda beetelgeuising. (Or however it's spelled.) Coming in when in danger, but otherwise lurking. Not providing much content, and when giving content, not putting much push in it.

On that last day, true, dave if scum

could

have been fighting to save his life...but very, very obviously

wasn't

. He was giving reads, and reasoning, and basically spamposting. He gave more activity in that short window than basically the entirety of D1. Furthermore, he did so without an ulterior motive: he knew he was getting lynched, thus, there was no directing the lynch elsewhere. EVEN IF it was possible, he stubbornly insisted on voting me instead of any actual viable wagon, effectively further condemning himself. He displayed a fair amount of confidence, borderline arrogance (not to mention reads that were very emotionally driven and inaccurate, but clearly coming from a town mindset, i.e. thinking both Anti and I were scum), in his callouts, making pleas for what to be done after he died. He was very active, he was giving lots of reasons, he was interacting with everyone...he was doing everything that I'd look for in a town player, ESPECIALLY at deadline, all at once.

Damned right I'd have unvoted had I been around. If I gave the description I am giving right here, right now, about dave, unvoted him, and you were on the wagon...wouldn't you? It's the reason I owe dave an apology.

[Jackal711]

VOTE COUNT 2.1

killapenwin (1) - Heartless
BlueBloodedToffee (0) -
Heartless (0) -
copper223 (0) -
vettrock (1) - BlueBloodedToffee
Aneninen (0) -
Wickedestjr (0) -
beastcharizard (2) - killapenwin, Wickedestjr
Tean Samargo (0) -
mastin2 (1) - copper223

Not Voting: vettrock, Aneninen, beastcharizard, Tean Samargo, mastin2

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is Tuesday, February 3rd at 10:30 pm PST which is in (expired on 2015-02-03 22:30:00)

[copper223]

@Killa

Can you explain? Heartless is a slot I’m having trouble getting a strong read on.

It would not be a stretch, but it's at least inaccurate and I've expressed my opinion of why hardcore lurking is less likely to be scum than people make it out to be in multiple games, it goes against scum's wincon and I've yet to see a hardcore lurker flip scum (so I might be biased by my sample size), an opinion I have expressed in multiple games where my alignment is verifiable.

@Wicked

Can you explain? Heartless is a slot I’m having trouble getting a strong read on.

one of the two heads of the hydra was giving town reads that have proven to be almost 100% accurate and the other has botched both major pushes he made yesterday and started out with what looked like a questionable push on Mastin, which makes it plausible it's a strategy on your part if you are scum that one side of the hydra takes the heat and the other then makes people switch back to townreading you, because that's what happened to my personal read, so even when Anti was pushing on Dave or me for reasons I did not agree with and that seemed forced at times I was still townreading the hydra overall.

It would be a nifty way to play it

That was my logic, coupled with the fact town managed to land on 3 separate town bandwagons yesterday, so either the scumhunting was pretty poor and scum just sat on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs and came in to hammer like Beast did or where just mia at the end like Aneninen, which is at odds with the strong lineup I believe we have in this game, or town was mafia driven yesterday, the second makes for a more dangerous scumteam so that's where we should start and why I do not like Killa going on Beast and you following up as a first post, it ignores the conclusions you can try and draw after we lynched Dave and Eyes and Dodgy flipped, that yesterday was really mafia sided, and is a sign of players not updating their reads to try and find scum but just striving to be consistent because they want to look good.

I’ve been strong town reading killa, but this seems like a really good point. Couldn’t find the evidence, myself, though. Post #?

So in effect, I have to vote the guy out who claimed tracker (who I previously put at L-1 and is the very thing you are voting me for) to prove to you that I am town?

@Mastin
That reads town, I'll admit.

[copper223]

They are defending someone who isn't even posting, I've linked examples. What would motivate them to protect someone who is not even posting?
I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say they are protecting a scum buddy.

Sorry this was the quote I wanted to make in my reply to Killa

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It would not be a stretch, but it's at least inaccurate and I've expressed my opinion of why hardcore lurking is less likely to be scum than people make it out to be in multiple games, it goes against scum's wincon

and I've yet to see a hardcore lurker flip scum

(so I might be biased by my sample size), an opinion I have expressed in multiple games where my alignment is verifiable.

This is a lie.

[copper223]

In that game they replaced out and Llama was not a hardcore lurker so no.

[killapenwin]

Right, ok Copper if you want to get into this again so be it. The post you are referring to in 1115 is a rhetorical question, more of a statement about the arguing we were having together yesterday. It was meant to sum up the case you were making against me that I either vote Eyestott or I am scum.

Whilst we are on about your

case

against me, let's not lose sight of post [893].

@all: With Beasts few posts being as bad as this :932 why are you not voting beast?
Why are you content to let this guy lurk?
He hasn't even said anything in 4 days

@mod: prod/replace beastcharizard

[vettrock]

Phoneposting.

They are two very strabge kills. I don't give a shit what people say about NKA, they are weird kills. Need to take a serious look at Heartless and Mastin, they're either horribly wrong in their reads or they're sxum/SK

Eyestott claimed tracker, and scum would have every reason to believe him. Most people don't lie as town. I don't see how you can see this as strange. dodgy you can at least make the argument. This seems to me to be a bit of casting doubt around such as scum would do.

VOTE: eyestott would be my vote at this point.

I often respond to a non-RVS "naked vote", i.e. a vote with little/no surrounding explanation, by immediately calling it out as naked and voting for that player.
I'll give you a pass this time because you got some reasons posted before I had a chance to act.
I mention it here because there are several players in the game who have seen me do it and may question why I didn't do it this time.

Question re: buddying. Do you view different types of helpful posts differently?

ill cop

that. i had stated some concerns earlier about eyestott but i probably should have stated them when i made my vote.

in regard ti your question. i judge posts based on context and content. so its a case by case situation.
I think with this if it had been anyone else i would probably feel a bit more comfortable with it as a welcome post. i think because i know eyestott from playdip, it changed my view of it to a certain extent.

When looking for a crumb from dodgy, I found the above. While he obviously wasn't a cop, I can see scum seeing that and thinking he may be a Role Cop.

Based on the PRs revealed and the two kills, I am going to assume we have three scum, and one Serial killer, although it is possible that the second kill was a Vig kill.

I would like to assume there is at least one of the scum on the eyestott wagon, and at least one scum on the daves wagon. Since eyestott and dodgy are town, on the daves wagon:
Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, copper223, Tean Samargo, Heartless, beastcharizard, vettrock,
On the eystott wagon:
BlueBloodedToffee, copper223, Mastin2

I've said I found copper scummy before and to clarify, if he is vengeful, I didn't support lynching him as if he is town, he was most likely going to bring down another townie with him, as he was saying he was going to shoot eyestott, or me, both of which I know are town.

With reagard to Heartless, I think part of the reason I was scum reading them, is what I would call the disconnect between the two heads. Although they sign and long time players can distinguish them, I sort of jam them together as one person, and it seems inconsistent. I haven't really played with Hydras before. Tean seems more unified, or one of the heads has done more of the posting, not sure which.

I'm suspicous of beast since he posted that his lurking was intentional and strategic. He is my tentative read for the serial killer for that.

For scum at the moment I'm looking at Mastin and BBT. Mastin everything seems arbitary. She was pushing both of the wagons. For BBT see above.

[vettrock]

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's.

Pretty sure that math's wrong.

For the record, tean/vettock/eyestott/dave is where I'm looking at for scum mainly. Obviously, they can't all be scum, but I'm preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure we've got at least two in there, and with luck, three.

You have at least three town in there....

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In that game they replaced out and Llama was not a hardcore lurker so no.

So Jagged Appliance was not scum and he didn't hardcore lurk?

[vettrock]

This seems a little bit convenient and hard to believe. Can you help

me

understand why you would have unvoted? You must have seen something strong if you were willing to unvote a player (so close to deadline) that you had been strongly scum reading all game…

Okay. So before, dave was kinda beetelgeuising. (Or however it's spelled.) Coming in when in danger, but otherwise lurking. Not providing much content, and when giving content, not putting much push in it.

On that last day, true, dave if scum

could

have been fighting to save his life...but very, very obviously

wasn't

. He was giving reads, and reasoning, and basically spamposting. He gave more activity in that short window than basically the entirety of D1. Furthermore, he did so without an ulterior motive: he knew he was getting lynched, thus, there was no directing the lynch elsewhere. EVEN IF it was possible, he stubbornly insisted on voting me instead of any actual viable wagon, effectively further condemning himself. He displayed a fair amount of confidence, borderline arrogance (not to mention reads that were very emotionally driven and inaccurate, but clearly coming from a town mindset, i.e. thinking both Anti and I were scum), in his callouts, making pleas for what to be done after he died. He was very active, he was giving lots of reasons, he was interacting with everyone...he was doing everything that I'd look for in a town player, ESPECIALLY at deadline, all at once.

Damned right I'd have unvoted had I been around. If I gave the description I am giving right here, right now, about dave, unvoted him, and you were on the wagon...wouldn't you? It's the reason I owe dave an apology.

I have to agree that is convenient and hard to believe. I voted dave. I was wrong, but he was the best scum read that I had who had a viable wagon. So you are saying you would have dropped off and caused a NoLynch?

[vettrock]

It would not be a stretch, but it's at least inaccurate and I've expressed my opinion of why hardcore lurking is less likely to be scum than people make it out to be in multiple games, it goes against scum's wincon

and I've yet to see a hardcore lurker flip scum

(so I might be biased by my sample size), an opinion I have expressed in multiple games where my alignment is verifiable.

This is a lie.

A game that I was in:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59912
SXLTHGaiden Hardcore Lurked. And I am Hardcore. And he was scum.

[vettrock]

It would not be a stretch, but it's at least inaccurate and I've expressed my opinion of why hardcore lurking is less likely to be scum than people make it out to be in multiple games, it goes against scum's wincon

and I've yet to see a hardcore lurker flip scum

(so I might be biased by my sample size), an opinion I have expressed in multiple games where my alignment is verifiable.

This is a lie.

A game that I was in:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59912
SXLTHGaiden Hardcore Lurked. And I am Hardcore. And he was scum.

Should say "and I mean Hardcore." 20 posts over 21 pages. The mod had more posts than he did.