Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Titus]

Meta is shit but for personality framework.

[Kaboose]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

At least I found someone who thinks there are a high number of lurking scum. (Which happens to be between 1 and 3, so not THAT high after all)

Are you trying to say that all the scum are lurking? Is this coming from the person who posts 3-20 posts at a time? I always get such a kick out of people who point to scum in the exact opposite place they are in. It's like me purposely posting on even number posts and saying "Scum are posting on odd number posts! Lynch them all!"

Happy to oblige.

VOTE: Kaboose

Does this mean if I dared you to unvote, you would?

Titus, the thing about scum playing optimally is that it assumes 100% of the time scum aren't going to fuck up or make stupid decisions.

Swag is town. His posts are bad but not scummy.

I disagree, his posts are both bad and scummy.

Post 951 was made by Antihero, who apparently has a soft spot in his heart for scum.

Post 979 on is me. Hi, I'm TTH!

I hope you're not someone who just points at someone, and then calls them something until everyone just agrees with you. Is this your plan? Pick someone out and just casually call them what you want until everyone just kind of agrees with you because they've read it so much?

996 - I don't even know what to say about this. Like seriously, you had me convinced I was scum just by reading it. Like I'm not even joking. You analyzed my face off and I almost can't offer a single rebuttal to this. I've read it a million times, defined most of the bigger words, and I just, I don't know. I would honestly be honored to be lynched based on this post. It deserves it. My only problem, if you'll direct your attention to the quote above(992) I'm scum for sure in that post. Then you post all this intricate analysis and you "Think" I'm scum. Did you talk yourself out of it or something?

That's actually quite a good case. I fully agree that his backpedal on me and telling me he's trying to townread me was awkward. The thing is, so many things people are doing this game feel awkward and newbish so it is hard to get a feel for what's scummy-awkward. I'm going to take a better look at your case later when I'm home. Why do you have a townread on GC?

Did you just backpedal on me as well here? You start by saying it's a good case, and that you "fully" agree that my backpedal on you was telling, but "meh everyone else is doing it so who knows?"

Kaboose just went down a few notches...

He complains about how Elle hasn't been lynched... and is voting no one.

Elle, I like the balls in the pushback and that does make sense. Grib's not usually that vocal. I am though. So it's not a total scumcase but it's something definitely worth looking into.

Weakkkkkkkkkkkkk - Don't misrep me, who cares if I didn't cast a vote? Seriously why do people on this game think voting is so important? Like I clearly said I would be happy lynching either Swag or Elle today. Must I cast a vote right then and there to avoid looking scummy to you? I like to present my opinion to people, and give people a chance to discuss it before I place a vote. I'm a very firm believe that votes have two reasons to be cast.

1. To apply pressure.
2. To lynch.

I knew, as of that post, that neither would happen to either of them. It was way too early. Even a vote on Elle, who I do think had a few votes, I knew wouldn't go anywhere, because we still had way too much to discuss as a town for this day.

Has Kaboose responded to TTH's case and I missed it?

lol there has to be a response before you evaluate a case?

Really? This is just like what I was talking about earlier, are you going to run around this game pointing fingers and shouting things and assume we should all just follow your lead? That is a miserable play style. You're going to present a case and then push for everyone to lynch that person before they even get a chance to provide a response? Were you elected judge, jury, and executioner somewhere and I missed it? Can it even be called a case when someone evaluates a person and that's all someone has to go on is their opinion? I would assume a case would need two sides to the story.

Now watch a cool magic trick. As of the time before this post Grib hasn't really hoped on my wagon or considered me scum outside of a "wouldn't care if lynched" comment. I saw this while reading, but didn't put it all together until just near the end so I didn't grab any quotes. I just find it funny that Grib isn't committing to me when such a good case has been presented, and others(swag, LR, Heartless, titus) have all been inching closer to me with rope. I say it's funny because I'm town reading him, which like makes me think he likes me right now because of that and he's cool with keeping me alive because of that. Now the magic trick is watch as Grib changes his opinion on me now that I'm calling him out as doing something scummy to me.

Abrakadabra!

[Grib]

Hm.

Before I address anything else: 1051 = flailing, y/n?

[Titus]

No. I really liked Ksboose's response there. Flailing players tend to plead more. I see a giant fuck you from Kaboose which id very townie.

[Armageddon]

Vote count Day 2.3

Players alive: 11

Players needed to lynch: 6

CptPicard

- 1 - Grib - (L-5)

elleheathen

- 1 - davesaz - (L-5)

Green Crayons

- 1 - Lone Ranger - (L-5)

Grib

- 1 - elleheathen - (L-5)

Kaboose

- 2 - Heartless, Whatisswag - (L-4)

MalaKittens

- 1 - Green Crayons - (L-5)

Whatisswag

- 1 - Titus - (L-5)

Players not voting: CptPicard, Kaboose, MalaKittens

Mod notes: Malakittens is V/LA
CptPicard has been prodded.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2015-02-01 23:22:00)

[Lone Ranger]

You start by saying it's a good case, and that you "fully" agree that my backpedal on you was telling, but "meh everyone else is doing it so who knows?"

Yes. And?

[Kaboose]

Why should I respond to your question, if you're going to edit out my question and then act like I'm just making a useless statement?

[elleheathen]

Hm.

Before I address anything else: 1051 = flailing, y/n?

No. I really liked Ksboose's response there. Flailing players tend to plead more. I see a giant fuck you from Kaboose which id very townie.

Agree, no.
I think it's pretty consistent to his way of posting. I think if there's any difference, it's only because he's defending and I don't find it scummy.

[elleheathen]

Heartless, read on LR?

[Whatisswag]

@Heartless:

why is Kaboose scum?

^^^^^^also, there's no follow up to this^^^^^^^

tth bothered to give him the write up and he didn't say shit and opted to go for the red herring conversation elle was having about the last second wagon, which more has to do w/ scumhunting philosophy anyway not alignment

See? told you they are scum team.

[Whatisswag]

How do you get people to listen to you? by suiciding and showing that you are town and hope people dont think you are as stupid as you are or what?

[Whatisswag]

Seriously, there cannot be a more appropriate scum team in the game other than this pair. From Green's posts first,

@awesome:

why the Kaboose vote, based on a pretty flip justification ("You're welcome for the vote. Now talk to me.")?

Your Kaboose vote/justification is particularly incongruous with the remainder of your Post 155, in which you undertake a more thorough analysis of players.

That was an early defend

UNVOTE: Riddle

VOTE: Corpses

1. What Kaboose said regarding setup spec.
2. Rereading his ISO, I still don't like how he interacted with swag.
3. I know at least 1/2 of his hyrda is around, but he's gone quiet.

Supports Kaboose

@Cheetory:

My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Kaboose's post prompted me to review Corpses's ISO, and the review of Corpses's ISO is what prompted me to vote him. I connected Kaboose to my vote based on that linear sequence of events. But upon further scrutinizing Kaboose's post after being prompted by Grib, I saw that there was perhaps some difference between what made Corpses suspicious to Kaboose and me.

This. Why did Green mention Kaboose's name so many times when Green could have just used "he"? They have a special interaction.

Finished the reread.

1. I feel less suspicious about Corpses's interaction with swag after my reread.

2. Grib's posting looks like solid town. He's catching things and articulating ideas that I am having upon reading the thread. Suggests that we're approaching the game from the same alignment mindset.

3. To a lesser extent, I get town vibes from awesome's and Kaboose's postings. Fairies is still a lean town read (don't know if I ever made that explicit from my earlier review of her play).

4. Cheetory's posts come from a much more mechanical stand point (if that makes any sense, I'm not sure it does; but it's the best way I can describe the "voice" of his posts), making it harder to discern alignment. Null read at the moment.

5. NJAC is completely MIA. Potential lurkerscum.

6. Riddle's interest in the game has dwindled down to inquiring as to an alt's main account. Helpful.

7. I don't like the elle/dave/swag interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this three person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

8. I don't like the elle/Ranger interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this two person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

Defends Kab

Regarding the dave/swag/elle conversation.

A.

dave:

the biggest thing that bothered me is his reasons justifying his swag vote. Grib hit all the right points in Post 312, and Kaboose summarizes my concern about dave's "disarming the opposition" tactic of preemptively declaring his vote a not-OMGUS in Post 323. The swag push looks manufactured, and the not-OMGUS declaration looks defensive.

B.

swag:

I don't like his push on dave, as the basis of the suspicion (dave was only asking meaningless questions) was too premature for the state of the game. Ultimately, though, his thought process and reasoning looks like it comes from town, even if it appears scattered at times.

C.

elle:

I'll admit that I didn't personally have a put-into-words suspicion about elle when reading her posts; it was all a general feeling of "this doesn't sound right." (Contrast this with my suspicions about dave, where Grib and Kaboose simply vocalized my already-formed suspicions.) Of the players who vocalized particular suspicions about elle, I think that (1) Cheetory's "playing it safe" suspicion (originally stated in Post 246), and (2) Kaboose's problem with elle's inquiry to dave about elle's play (Post 323 and Post 339) are the most persuasive.

Regarding this second suspicion, I don't think this is an isolated incident. I noticed that she had previously asked Corpses about her play in a similar manner (Post 118 and Post 235). Well, maybe not a similar manner, but it certainly seems to come from the same mindset: "let me figure out what this player thinks about me and try to turn it to town."

CONCLUSION

: swag still looks town, even if a bit all over the place. dave and elle look more suspicious. Kaboose looks more town.

The tone in his post sounds like he wants to say Kaboose is very very town. But his conclusion at the end just says: "looks more town". This is distancing himself from kab.

Some thoughts on these final few pages.

1. elle's Post 428 reads list is strikingly similar to how I am reading the game. I would only switch awesome (to lean town) and Kaboose (to town), put swag as town instead of lean scum, and put elle as a scum candidate. Despite those differences, there's a lot of overlap in how elle and I are understanding the game.

My takeaway from our apparently shared perspective is this: This reads list doesn't undercut my problems with elle's play, nor does it outweigh those problems. If elle does flip town, however, I will come back to this reads list as support of our (mostly) mutual understanding of other players.


2.

@NJAC:

Really, with Post 445 and Post 446?


3.

@Ranger:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

Defend Kab

There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

Defend Kab

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

@elle:

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

That's nice.

It doesn't answer my question.

Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

Why is he so interested in this question? obviously because of the kaboose elle interaction. See? he defends kab again.

While there's a lot of extraneous bits to this conversation, this is a point that strikes me with any interest:

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will

also make their alignments apparent

).

Disregarding the whole logic/gut nonsense, if you want my reasons for reading Malakittens as town, I can do that:

1. She seems engaged with the game in a way that I normally don't see from scum.
2. Her posting feels organic and not artificial and the way she interacted with the game and the reads she developed don't feel strategic or orchestrated.

You figured all that out from her in 5 posts?

That's a pretty quick time frame for a strong town read on Mala to develop - her alignment was "apparent" - particularly considering that Ranger had previously read the slot (awesome) as some degree of scum.


Also, this question:

Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?

This method transfers the topic from Kaboose to Green such that Kaboose is ignored.
Shifts the focus away from Ranger's especially quick solid Mala-town read and onto other players, forcing them to have the burden to disprove that Mala is town. Which is not how reads work.

Has Kaboose responded to TTH's case and I missed it?

Why do you care about something happening between Kaboose and TTH?

[Whatisswag]

Ok,

@EVERYONE

look at kaboose's ISO.

Where does he talk to Green?

Exactly, almost none.

I did that in my first scum game, not talking to my scum partner because of awkwardness (Mala can confirm). If they are not scum team, Why does Green Crayons not even bother him at all?

[Whatisswag]

Seriously, whoever DOESN'T vote Kaboose or Green Crayons now is almost confirmed third scum.

[Green Crayons]

That's a really bad case.

1. There's some blatantly horrible accusation-observations.

Spoiler: lol

"Why did Green mention Kaboose's name so many times when Green could have just used "he"? They have a special interaction."

Setting aside the wonky psychological breakdown BS you're trying to use, I didn't use pronouns to refer to either Kaboose or Corpses because I didn't want anyone to get confused about whether I was referring to Kaboose or Corpses by using the male pronoun. I do it frequently because pronouns are confusing. Clear Writing 101.

"Why do you care about something happening between Kaboose and TTH?"

I was prompted by Heartless to talk about Kaboose and TTH.

2. Then there's a baseless "defends Kab" tagline just because Kaboose gets mentioned in a post. That's not how defending works?

3. And then the rest of my posts show that I have developed a town read on Kaboose over the course of the game. Okay.

[Green Crayons]

@Titus:

@GC, Was Mala VLA at deadline? I know she's been at Disney but I haven't really been keeping track.

I don't think so.

I didn't know she was V/LA until she posted on D2, and I would have probably caught her V/LA tag back when D1 deadline was around. But then again, I was only phone posting myself, so maybe I missed it.

[Whatisswag]

That's a really bad case.

1. There's some blatantly horrible accusation-observations.

Spoiler: lol

"Why did Green mention Kaboose's name so many times when Green could have just used "he"? They have a special interaction."

Setting aside the wonky psychological breakdown BS you're trying to use, I didn't use pronouns to refer to either Kaboose or Corpses because I didn't want anyone to get confused about whether I was referring to Kaboose or Corpses by using the male pronoun. I do it frequently because pronouns are confusing. Clear Writing 101.

"Why do you care about something happening between Kaboose and TTH?"

I was prompted by Heartless to talk about Kaboose and TTH.

2. Then there's a baseless "defends Kab" tagline just because Kaboose gets mentioned in a post. That's not how defending works?

3. And then the rest of my posts show that I have developed a town read on Kaboose over the course of the game. Okay.

Whatever, this is not going to convince everyone.

[Green Crayons]

And speaking of Kaboose, I'll read his 1051 soon, Heartless. Then you can have all my thoughts and feelings about TTH's suspicions.

[Titus]

Yeah, Green didn't need to say anything. Your case is transparent flail. So I guess you are right. Green's not going to convince anyone with his response.

I have seen Green Crayons as town and gotten into his head.

Stop spamming the thread Swag. We know you're scum trying to swing a mislynch. It's ok.

[Whatisswag]

Try it, I am betting my lynch on it. If I am scum, then doing so would not hurt.

[Whatisswag]

Btw, just saying if Green gets to L-1 before Kaboose does, I will hammer.

[Whatisswag]

I mean it is so obvious. There is nothing to be town read of Green and Kaboose because they lack the town behavioural skills.

And also, Titus, you suck, even after 1 game with me, you still cannot read me.

[Whatisswag]

okay I

ROLECLAIM: Gladiator

I

Challenge: Kaboose

[Whatisswag]

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

[Titus]

Their ISOs are dripping with town motivation to crack the game. I don't see myself voting either ever. If you are town, like you say, then why don't you focus on finding the third scum from your perspective. Those two are unlynchable today.

1051 is pretty town.

Seriously, for pushong Kaboose, you did not even answer Grib's direct question about Kaboose. You are just spamming. Stop it.