Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Titus]

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

Nice fakeclaim.

[Titus]

I think we should hypoclaim recruiting mason and who we will target n1

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

I would actually recruit a town read. I would rather to be able to talk to a conf town then to find a mafia.

the mason fishing is horrible.

Explain how hypoclaim is role-fishing since everyone claims.

@swag: How strong are your reads?

Not very strong
Green is towny.
Riddle is null-town
Rest are null.

I would say that Grib is town if dave is scum. And by the logic that scum likes to ignore their scum partners (which happens very oftenly), Green and NJAC are both not scum. I would think that one of {Corpses, elle, ILF} is his partner.

Wait a minute, I just saw something outside of this thread. dave is town too.

dave is conf town to me. I will be willing to be lynched instead of letting dave be lynched.

Shit. i just forgot there are masons. But whatever.

Just stop it.

Time to actually contribute and interact.

Why not start with Grib's question I said you missed?

[Kaboose]

okay I

ROLECLAIM: Gladiator

I

Challenge: Kaboose

Not how gladiator works.

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

This isn't worded correctly for one thing in my opinion as you probably would have said something like "I attempted to recruit Kaboose last night and it failed." would probably be more suitable. Also why did you wait so long to tell us this? Considering your posts since D2 started...

NJAC

- 7 - Kaboose,

Cheetory6

, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Grib, davesaz, Whatisswag - (L-0) (LYNCH!)

There's

at least

two scum there.

I disagree. I would think that the lurkers pile has more scum. usually in my town games, I get at least some number of scum reads. This game, I have none so far (surprisingly). Either someone is super good at being scum or the lurking people...

Elle claims there are scum on the wagon there, and you disagree with her... While I'm on it?

Why is Cheetory killed? Is it possible because elle is scum?

You again accuse Elle of being scum.

972 - In this post you reply to all my concerns on you with no problem or questions of concern towards me.

@dave:

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

I'm not following what you are saying.

It is a VT claim to say you're not recruited. VT claims in a mason game narrow down the range of players who might be mason, and scum need to identify masons to eliminate them before LYLO (assuming the game gets that far). There is no good town motivation to claim, especially this early in the day.

There are scum reasons for doing it, in particular to fish for mason reactions like "how do you know anyone was recruited". Masons should keep their mouths shut BTW.

BS. Masons know not to say anything.

What I'm pointing out with it is that I think they would have recruited between:

Me. LR. GC. Grib. davesaz.

Since I wasn't, that leaves the other 4. And I'm pretty damn sure scum is in there.

I want scum to know I wasn't recruited. Because it increases the likelihood that they WERE.

And I get a warm feeling inside when I imagine them worrying about it, wondering when it'll come out, waiting, waiting.

No, just no. Stupid. You need a vote.

VOTE: elleheathen

You decide to vote Elle, and then unvote her in like the next post or close to it. Why were you on Elle if you already knew I was scum based on your claim?

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?


@Dave, My scumgame is much better than that. Ask Grib (aka Snowvon). I scumhunt by supposing people take optimal actions based on what they know. Elle's play is suboptimal for scum there and I was explaining that to Grib.

elle's towny behaviour would be mentioned later when I have time.

My second strongest town read died in the night.

So now it is this:
davesaz- confirm town, whoever is targetting dave screw off.
Heartless- towny, both parts of the hydra display town behaviour even though their playstyles can be different.
Green crayons- a little bit town, his walls and his slightly aggressive behaviour is town. But the fact that he switches his playstyle when LR targets him jumps out to me
Lone ranger- a little bit town, this is gut
Titus- a little bit town, this is gut
elle- null
Grib- null, I cannot read this guy even though I played with him before.
Mala- a little bit scum, partially because both the original dude and the replacement is lurking, partially because awesome did not really do much in terms of giving reads.
Kaboose- a little bit scum. He seem somewhat different when I played with him, in a scummy way.
I cannot remember any other people.

First time you mention me in D2 as "little bit scum" but you tried to recruit me last night and it failed... so i'm just a little bit scum because of that.. Cool.

I first read the role claim of his and just thought "He's trying really hard to get me lynched, but he just recently jumped on me, that claim doesn't make sense."

Then my next thought was "Oh he's simply scum trying to mislynch me!"

But then I thought "Nah, scum wouldn't do that because the real recruiting mason would just counterclaim him and he would be dead."

Then I was like "Oh crap he's trying to get someone to counterclaim so mafia will know another mason!"

Swag if you're somehow town, this was a shit move. Because it could force a counterclaim and if it doesn't you end up night killed anyways. Why the desperation? This is so anti-town. Nothing good can come from this claim you just made.

I believe in lynching liars. On top of that I wanted you lynched anyways because of how you ended D1.

VOTE: WhatisSwag

[Green Crayons]

@Swag:

why did Cheetory want to recruit Kaboose?

[Grib]

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

Nobody counterclaim this.

[Grib]

Fuck, new page.

Hang on.

[Heartless]

Their ISOs are dripping with town motivation to crack the game.

...and so the moonlogic begins...

[Heartless]

the claim is obv fake
ya'll have issues

[Grib]

Again: the other Mason (or both Masons) should not do anything. Stay hidden.

Okay, options. Swag is:

- a Mason (bad)
- a lying VT (even worse)
- a lying scum (not bad)

The lynch is basically being force-narrowed between Swag and Kaboose now. In 2/3 cases, Swag gets shot. I think the best course of action is to lynch the claimed check and go from there.

Swag, if you are VT, this was a horrendously stupid play. The only way you could ever be redeemed is if Kaboose actually is scum

and

his buddies call your bluff.

[Green Crayons]

@Heartless:

Read 1051.

My response to TTH's case is a big shrug. I don't think the factual observations are wrong, I just don't think that the resulting conclusion is on point.

I don't care for Kaboose's response to the case, which goes beyond a big shrug and actually offers to put the noose around his neck for such a good job that TTH did. The response is actually more suspicious than TTH's case, in my opinion. The sentiment - "you have made a good case against me and I don't really have a response" - is not necessarily alignment indicative, but Kaboose really just lays it on thick.

[Grib]

the claim is obv fake
ya'll have issues

Like. It's very likely a fakeclaim, but I'm thinking about lynching a Mason and just.

Ew.

How would you proceed?

[Heartless]

it's a newb trying to be a hero and faking a guilty

[Heartless]

I just don't think that the resulting conclusion is on point.

'mkay so what's your conclusion?

[Green Crayons]

That he's a lean town read.

[Heartless]

...and this is based on.........................

[Heartless]

I hope you're not someone who just points at someone, and then calls them something until everyone just agrees with you. Is this your plan? Pick someone out and just casually call them what you want until everyone just kind of agrees with you because they've read it so much?

Antihero has a... unique style. He's an acquired taste, I will admit. And no, I'm (usually) not that way.

@Swag:

why did Cheetory want to recruit Kaboose?

Swag's claim was obviously not true for numerous reasons: he wasn't familiar with the mason mechanic at the beginning of the game and he didn't vote Kaboose to start Day 2. The context of the (obviously) fake "gladiator" claim in the immediately preceding post should make this even more apparent. The post I'm quoting here bothers me because it shows a level of naïveté that I don't think Green Crayons really has.

[Heartless]

That he's a lean town read.

Anti beat me to the punch here, but I'd also like to know how you support this conclusion.

[Green Crayons]

I hope you're not someone who just points at someone, and then calls them something until everyone just agrees with you. Is this your plan? Pick someone out and just casually call them what you want until everyone just kind of agrees with you because they've read it so much?

Antihero has a... unique style. He's an acquired taste, I will admit. And no, I'm (usually) not that way.

@Swag:

why did Cheetory want to recruit Kaboose?

Swag's claim was obviously not true for numerous reasons: he wasn't familiar with the mason mechanic at the beginning of the game and he didn't vote Kaboose to start Day 2. The context of the (obviously) fake "gladiator" claim in the immediately preceding post should make this even more apparent.

The post I'm quoting here bothers me because it shows a level of naïveté that I don't think Green Crayons really has.

It's a question directed to expose whether swag is lying or not.

[Heartless]

He is. He's been thoroughly exposed already. o_O

[Green Crayons]

As for Kaboose read, I skimmed over my ISO to verify why I have been town reading him. To some degree, I believe it has been because he has been vocalizing points that I, too, have thought, and so I see some of my own alignment in him. To a larger degree, his posts just "feel" town.

And there's not much in the way of contrary evidence to convince me otherwise. (Contrast with Ranger's observation of awesome's fencesitting, which I initially recognized as valid and worthy of suspicions, but not worth putting awesome as a scum after having leaned town read him; but which further developed into a scum read after Heartless noted the slot's continued fencesitting in Mala.)

TTH's Post 996 points boil down to

1) walls with little follow up: but it's early game stuff, when small conversations quickly die, and the substance of the quoted posts don't look like scum fluff

2) bad votes:
- a sticky vote on Corpses without an effort to develop a read on Corpses, but Corpses went AWOL pretty quick early in the game so that explains both of those problems
- a vote on NJAC that told NJAC why he was voting him, but telling someone you're voting them to get them to post doesn't "subvert" the point of getting the person to post, as TTH suggests; it in fact does the exact opposite

3) awkward interaction with Ranger: (shrug)

4) lack of a global outlook: not sure how this is alignment indicative

5) is slow to develop reads on others but defensive to attacks on himself: more likely to come from town than scum

[Green Crayons]

He is. He's been thoroughly exposed already. o_O

Titus's 1076 didn't "thoroughly expose" anything.

If swag was not lying, Kaboose's 1077 is what I would expect from scum.

Hence my 1078.

[Heartless]

Kaboose's 1077 would be what I would expect of him as scum regardless of the veracity of Swag's claim.

[Green Crayons]

I think your point is you think 1077 comes from scum.

So tell me how swag was "thoroughly exposed already" when I posted 1078.

Don't shovel your shitty suspicions on me.

[Heartless]

As Titus already pointed out, Whatisswag was confused about the mason mechanics at the outset of the game. This alone is a strong indicator that he didn't get a mason card. His behavior coming into today also isn't indicative of someone who knows Kaboose is scum. There's another thing from Cheetory's activity that isn't necessarily pro-town to discuss, so I will refrain from doing so.

Your defensiveness here is also unwarranted, GC.

[Kaboose]

Well 1077's actual reason was my own thought process that brought me to him possibly being a scum attempting to suicide for a counterclaim to take out a mason which if that happened, would essentially leave every town left a VT. So I did 1077 to make sure people knew he was falseclaiming regardless of his alignment to assure no one counterclaimed his falseclaim.