[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

JasonWazza · Post Post #7875 (ISO) » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:40 pm

Yeah generally we can juggle 2 quite easily.

Though honestly i think newbies should be heading to micros after the newbie rather then anything else, but that's my opinion.

BBmolla · Post Post #7876 (ISO) » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:41 pm

Babysitter's Club

10 Players

1 Mafia Babysitter
1 Mafia Goon

1 Town Babysitter
1 Town Vigilante
6 VTs

If going into the night Mafia and Town are equal, Mafia wins, regardless of town roles left.

JasonWazza · Post Post #7877 (ISO) » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:22 pm

I see that one ending quickly simply because Mafia babysitter is best targeting the goon unless they believe that are a night shot, meaning if they are the scum team is gone.

BBmolla · Post Post #7878 (ISO) » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:39 pm

↑ JasonWazza wrote:I see that one ending quickly simply because Mafia babysitter is best targeting the goon unless they believe that are a night shot, meaning if they are the scum team is gone.

I'd target town personally.

With targetting a partner as a play if I thought they were getting shot.

Aneninen · Post Post #7879 (ISO) » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:06 am

It's very risky for the Mafia Babysitter to protect the Goon. By protecting a townie the Babysitter might die due to a stray and lucky Vig-shot so, maybe it's best not to use the ability at all.
Also, due to its small size and the two kills it may be very swingy.

Meanwhile, I'm working on the next version of my Setup.

callforjudgement · Post Post #7880 (ISO) » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:10 am

↑ JasonWazza wrote:Yeah generally we can juggle 2 quite easily.

Though honestly i think newbies should be heading to micros after the newbie rather then anything else, but that's my opinion.

I think Mini Normals are the best next step up, unless the newbie in question is particularly fond of Opens.

Cheery Dog · Post Post #7881 (ISO) » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:48 pm

↑ Aneninen wrote:It's very risky for the Mafia Babysitter to protect the Goon. By protecting a townie the Babysitter might die due to a stray and lucky Vig-shot so, maybe it's best not to use the ability at all.
Also, due to its small size and the two kills it may be very swingy.

Meanwhile, I'm working on the next version of my Setup.

*May keep the townie alive.

Babysitter isn't a bodyguard.

Aneninen · Post Post #7882 (ISO) » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:40 am

It's me again.

Thanks for your notes and ideas. Having reconsidered them I've reconstructed my idea.
So, here comes...

MATRIX–14

It's based upon the current Newbie Setup, Matrix–6. However, this one is a bigger version with more possible Setups, more available PRs and the total number of players is 13, just like in many Open and Normal games.

Matrix–14 is a possible "next step" after Newbie games: its main goal is to introduce new PRs to the newer players, just as well the possibility of being in a Multiball-game.

How does Matrix–14 work?

(1) Each Setup contains 6 Vanilla Townies and 1 Mafia Goon.

(2) The remaining 6 roles are determined by a matrix.

Spoiler: Check out this spoiler for the Skeleton of the setup.

1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Mafia JOAT	Vanilla Townie	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie	Town Tracker	8
Town Doctor	Town Odd-Night Watcher	Town 1-Shot Vigilante	Town 1-Shot Cop	Mafia JOAT	Mafia Rolecop	9
Town Even-Night Tracker	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Rolecop	Town Jailkeeper	Town Fruit Vendor	Mafia 2-Shot Strongman	10
Town 2-Shot Commuter	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie	Town Watcher	Town Universal Backup	11
Wolf Goon / SK	Town Bodyguard	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Godfather	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	12
Wolf JOAT / SK	Wolf Goon / SK	Town Neighbourizer	Town 1-Shot Cop	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Doctor	13
						14

Just like in Matrix–6, the Mod secretly determines the Setup is to be played, but in Matrix–14 the Matrix can be read

diagonally too

. Therefore, the total amount of the possible Setups is 14 (not 12).

Spoiler: These are the possible Setups; the Vanilla Townies and the Mafia goon are included

(3) If the Setup contained only one Werewolf slot, it gets replaced by a Serial Killer. (These Setups: (2), (7) and (12) )
The Serial Killer is to choose their PR pregame:

either

Strongman AND Ninja

or

1-shot Bulletproof.

(4) If the Setup is 10:2:1 – (2) and (12) –, the Mafia faction has Daytalk. In all other cases there's no Daytalk.

(5) If there's a Werewolf faction – (1) and (13) – the Mafia is informed about this fact.

(6) The Mafia/Werewolf JOAT has the following abilities: Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker – all of them are 1-shot. The JOAT can use only one of their abilities at Night.

(7) The Mafia Roleblocker

is

able to Block and Kill at the same Night. (This doesn't go for the Mafia or the Werewolf JOAT.) With this exception, no scum can perform a kill and use an active ability at the same Night.

(8) If an X-shot ability is disabled during the night, the shot is lost for good. The Bulletproof ability blocks the first incoming shot automatically.

(9) Unless it's stated otherwise, Natural Action Resolution applies.
The notable differences and the things which are to be cleared are the following:
– If the Bodyguard gets blocked, any shots targetting their intended target is successful whereas the Bodyguard survives. (Setup (2) and (7) )
– If the Neighbourizer targets the 1-Shot Vigilante at the same night as the Vigilante targets the Neighbourizer, both actions are successful: the Vigilante joins the Neighbourhood and the Neighbourizer dies (Setup (3) ).
– The Town Universal Backup gains the first flipped PR automatically. In case of getting the Strongman ability (Setup (6) ) the Backup turns into a Strongman and by this, gets a useless role. (Since they're unable to shoot at all.)
– The Jailkeeper has priority over the Bodyguard. If they target the same player, any kills performed on the particular player fails (and the Bodyguard survives); unless the player is targetted by the Strongman ability (in this case the Jailed and Bodyguarded player dies whereas the Bodyguard survives). If the Jailkeeper and the Bodyguard targets each other, any kills performed on the Bodyguard fails and any kills performed on the Jailkeeper is successful. (Yet again, the Strongman ability ovverrides both of them and the original target dies.) (Setup (7) ).
– The Mafia JOAT ovverrides the Town Jailkeeper (Setup (7) and (8) ).

(10) Any player can join a Matrix–14 game who finished at least one Newbie game before.

Spoiler: Recent changes

________

I'm still open to any suggestion and modification.

TierShift · Post Post #7883 (ISO) » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:22 am

Hey, this looks lovely! The skeleton is really helpful in determining where the remaining problem with your setup lies: with the doctors. All the setup without docs look very good, but your idea of docs is screwed up. Doctor is

not

a strong PR. It should have 2 x's, not 4. In all the setups with a doc, town is severely underpowered. In two of the setups, there even is a strongman. A strongman completely negates every single power a doc has. The doc basically turns into a VT until the strongman is dead, by which time scum probably have figured out all the PR's and the doc dies anyway. As to fix this, I'd suggest to make the strongman a 1-shot strongman.

This still does not fixz the doc problem. Town needs added power in these setups. Perhaps give town an added decent PR when there's a doc. Or nerf scum in some way. Or make the even-night doc a full doc and remove the other docs.

Other than that, I have some small fixes for your setup explanation.
Clarification for (3) is needed. Does the SK get both a strongman and a ninja kill in a night or does he have to choose? (I'd pick choose)
(9) if the doctor and bodyguard target each other and the bodyguard is shot, he should be fully protected by the doc, no matter who he targets. Why would someone not get doc protection if they target the doc?

Aneninen · Post Post #7884 (ISO) » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:53 am

Thanks for your ideas, the Setup has been changed.

Aneninen · Post Post #7885 (ISO) » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:56 am

As for the SK, they can have Ninja and Strongman at the same time, alternatively, they can choose 1-Shot Bulletproof. (JK9++ has the same version of SK. They can either defend themselves against investigation and become a prone target to Nightkills or vice versa.)

The issue with the Doctor/Bodyguard pair is solved, the Doctor slot has been changed to Jailkeeper (which has priority over the Bodyguard – I think that's better for town and it's in the only 9:3:1 Setup so...)

LlamaFluff · Post Post #7886 (ISO) » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:34 pm

I like the idea but want to think on it a bit as some of the setups town is going to be deceptively strong (like 4 and 11), and a few others I see scum as having quite the leg up to start (2 and 12). Maybe it all balances out to the point where you realize that due to the setup you are going to have the C9++ situation where if town figure out the setup they are playing at a good time they get a huge boost to the game which helps counter some of everything.

Do like this one. Just want to sleep on it.

I would remove informing mafia of wolves existing or not though unless you are aiming to tell mafia exactly what setup number they are playing out the gate (as apart from 2/13 and 9/14 they know exactly what setup they are in)

SB · Post Post #7887 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:07 am

I think that Strongman and Ninja are just not good roles for setups like these since they're direct counters to town's very few roles. Maybe change the JoaTs to something more general like Roleblock/Track/Doctor?

Town in 9 seems incredibly strong too, on top of the setups Llama pointed out, but I don't think 11 is too bad.

Aneninen · Post Post #7888 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:13 am

The Wiki page for Matrix 14 has been created.

LamaFluff, SB: can you explain why (2), (4), (9), (11) and (12) are unbalanced?

I don't think JOATs are overpowered in that form, all of their abilities are 1-Shot after all.

TierShift · Post Post #7889 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:27 am

I think one thing to keep in mind is that the Matrix-6 setup leaves the scum guessing as to in which setup they are. Here they know all the time except for setups 6 and 10.

Aneninen · Post Post #7890 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:30 am

The sooner the town loses PRs the sooner the townies know the Setup so it's a kind of "anti-swing compensation" (if that expression exists at all).

Guyett · Post Post #7891 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:33 am

3

Mafia

3

Mafia

3

Mafia

3

Masons

1

Gunsmith

6

Vanilla Townies

Day chat happens
Each group (mafia and mason) have 1 gun and 1 bulletproof vest each.
No one person is assigned these items, they can rotate them between themselves.
However one person CANNOT wear the vest and carry the gun at the same time.
Gunsmith only gets a guilty on someone carrying a gun the night of the investigation.

We just finished the first game of it on my other site (we ran it with 5 VT instead of 6 VT and town won)

TierShift · Post Post #7892 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:51 am

↑ Aneninen wrote:The sooner the town loses PRs the sooner the townies know the Setup so it's a kind of "anti-swing compensation" (if that expression exists at all).

I get that. It's just something to keep in mind while thinking about differences in balance with your and the original setup.

@Guyett:
I'm wondering what the idea is here. There's one gunsmith who gets guilties on the mason group. The gunsmith gets perhaps one guilty before dying. I don't really see the added value in havng a gun circulate between members which
1. Is not really all that spectacular
2. Greatly diminishes the chance the gunsmith gets a guilty before dying

The gunsmith seems kind of useless with both the false positives and false negatives. Without the gunsmith, it's a 10:3:3:3 setup with 3 masons which is...okay, maybe? I have no idea how to balance 4-faction setups. Perhaps 9:2:2:2 would be better?

LlamaFluff · Post Post #7893 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:16 pm

↑ Guyett wrote:3
Mafia

3
Mafia

3
Mafia

3
Masons

1
Gunsmith

6
Vanilla Townies

Day chat happens
Each group (mafia and mason) have 1 gun and 1 bulletproof vest each.
No one person is assigned these items, they can rotate them between themselves.
However one person CANNOT wear the vest and carry the gun at the same time.
Gunsmith only gets a guilty on someone carrying a gun the night of the investigation.

We just finished the first game of it on my other site (we ran it with 5 VT instead of 6 VT and town won)

I have issues where town could lynch correctly every day and lose. You are not only making them catch scum but requiring cross kills and likely town to lynch scum in a correct order. Look at this (unlikely but possible) result:

D1: Mafia A lynched
N1: All three masons die (3-3-2-7 setup now)
D2: Mafia A lynched
N2: Three VT die (3-3-1-4 alive)
D3: Mafia A lynched
N3: Two VT die (3-3-2 alive)

Its just one of those setups where town will need help from scum, so isn't really all that balanced if you are requiring anti-town players to just get unlucky with night actions to even have a chance.

You can probably spawn a unique setup where each mafia faction only has one gun, and if the player with the gun is lynched/NKed they lose the ability to kill as a faction (someone make this setup - seriously)

LlamaFluff · Post Post #7894 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:25 pm

↑ Aneninen wrote:The Wiki page for Matrix 14 has been created.

LamaFluff, SB: can you explain why (2), (4), (9), (11) and (12) are unbalanced?

I don't think JOATs are overpowered in that form, all of their abilities are 1-Shot after all.

Setup 2 town has very little power (odd night watcher + BG) to make a dent in a 10-2-1 setup.
Setup 4 correct play is both cops use their action N1 and then you massclaim D2. Town should have at VERY least three clear players at that point, probably four.
Setup 9 town has a ton of good powers. I don't see a rolecop being of much use, and the JOAT only gets one strongman shot while rest of the actions aren't of much use.
Setup 11 again town just has way too much. They have a two shot BP in the commuter who again gets confirmed as town... so you are essentially in a 10-3 where town has three confirmed town (including watcher and likely a second in the backup). Scum just don't have enough to counter that to me when they only have a RB. You need to remember all PRs are essentially confirmed scum.
Setup 14 you have a Cop+Doctor with only a JOAT shot counter and also a odd night investigative role (essentially town get a 100% N1 investigative role).

These are all workable in a matrix type setup, but there are setups that would be called unbalanced in other setups. That's half the issue with variable setups though, you are going to get some setups that are just more unfair for a certain faction.

Guyett · Post Post #7895 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:55 pm

↑ LlamaFluff wrote:
↑ Guyett wrote:3
Mafia

3
Mafia

3
Mafia

3
Masons

1
Gunsmith

6
Vanilla Townies

Day chat happens
Each group (mafia and mason) have 1 gun and 1 bulletproof vest each.
No one person is assigned these items, they can rotate them between themselves.
However one person CANNOT wear the vest and carry the gun at the same time.
Gunsmith only gets a guilty on someone carrying a gun the night of the investigation.

We just finished the first game of it on my other site (we ran it with 5 VT instead of 6 VT and town won)

I have issues where town could lynch correctly every day and lose. You are not only making them catch scum but requiring cross kills and likely town to lynch scum in a correct order. Look at this (unlikely but possible) result:

D1: Mafia A lynched
N1: All three masons die (3-3-2-7 setup now)
D2: Mafia A lynched
N2: Three VT die (3-3-1-4 alive)
D3: Mafia A lynched
N3: Two VT die (3-3-2 alive)

Its just one of those setups where town will need help from scum, so isn't really all that balanced if you are requiring anti-town players to just get unlucky with night actions to even have a chance.

You can probably spawn a unique setup where each mafia faction only has one gun, and if the player with the gun is lynched/NKed they lose the ability to kill as a faction (someone make this setup - seriously)

The original idea for this setup had the gun being stolen if the person carrying the gun was killed...

I think town need scum to cross kill anyway in multiball though

↑ Guyett wrote:
↑ BBmolla wrote:Half the game is scum, the day phase is going to be shit.

Gunsmith gets guilties on all mafia? With 9 mafia and false positives, he seems pretty damned pointless.

Gunsmith only gets guilties on people carrying the gun the night of the investigation. ETL has played the setup on the other site and even though there was as many scum as town it was pretty evenly balanced, especially as a 3 mafia multiball.

Here's what happened in that game:

No-one was lynched day 1 (deadline passed while someone was L-1, that person was blue scum)

Gunsmith investigated a VT, got innocent
Masons shoot a VT
Brown Mafia shoot a Mason
Red Mafia shoot Brown Mafia
Blue Mafia shoot Mason, this shot failed as the mason was wearing the vest

Brown Mafia got lynched day 2

Gunsmith investigated a VT, got innocent
Mason shoot Blue Mafia
Blue Mafia shoot Brown Mafia, this failed as the last remaining brown scum wore the vest instead of shooting
Brown Mafia wore the vest
Red Mafia shoot a VT

Blue Mafia got lynched day 3

Gunsmith investigate last remaining Blue Mafia, Blue Mafia choose to wear a vest instead of shooting so the result is innocent
Mason shoot a VT
Blue Mafia wears the vest
Brown Mafia gets brave and shoots Red Mafia
Red Mafia shoot a VT

Last Brown Mafia gets lynched day 4

Gunsmith investigates a Mason, gets a guilty as the mason used the gun that night
Mason shoots Blue Mafia
Blue Mafia gets brave and shoots Red Mafia
Red Mafia shoots Mason

This leaves the Gunsmith, One Mason, One VT and One Red Mafia left day 5;
Red Mafia is lynched day 5

Guyett · Post Post #7896 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:57 pm

Also all 3 masons cant die over night as one would be wearing the bulletproof vest.
when a mason or mafia group is down to just 1 person left they have to choose whether they want to be smart and wear the vest or be brave and take a shot.

Flames682 · Post Post #7897 (ISO) » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:36 pm

Not sure if this is the right place to ask if not I'll just make a new thread. For Bastard++, how would investigator get results for each role. I was told that it was a rolecop essentially but not sure how it would investigate for Cults, Survivors, and each role.

Also, how does the 2/3 lynching mechanic work? If there were 13 alive it would take 9 to lynch? Or is it just regular lynch majority with 7 to lynch?

If this isn't the right place then someone please move it to the correct place.

ISO · Post Post #7898 (ISO) » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:27 pm

You PM'd me, I'll update the page as well, looking back at it the inspector see's alignment. Cult would be cult, jester self-aligned and mafia mafia etc.
The 2/3 lynch mechanic means it takes two thirds of the player rounded down to lynch someone.

ISO · Post Post #7899 (ISO) » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:06 am

The Open Game for Large Elemental just ended with a town win, I think as a result of this that the Fruit Vendor should be added again. It weakens an otherwise very powerful tracker in certain situations.

1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Mafia OOOO	Town X	Town XXX	Mafia O	Town X	Town XX	8
Town XXXX	Town XX	Town X	Town X	Mafia OOO	Mafia OO	9
Town X	Town XX	Mafia OOO	Town XXXX	Town X	Mafia OO	10
Town XX	Mafia OOOO	Mafia X	Town X	Town XXXX	Town X	11
Wolf O / SK	Town XX	Town X	Mafia OOOO	Town XXX	Town X	12
Wolf OOO / SK	Wolf O / SK	Town XX	Town XX	Mafia OOO	Town XXX	13
						14