We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[copper223]

Lol

[Pirate Ika]

VOTE: vonny

[Drixx]

As someone who has been confined to a wheelchair due to spinal injury since I was 11 years old, I feel somewhat qualified to weigh in on the whole thing about certain words used as slurs, such as "retard" being applied to people with cognitive deficits.

I would much rather be called "Crippled" than any of the politically correct phrases. I'm not "Physically challenged". My legs don't work because my spinal cord was injured, and that's what "Crippled" means. I'm not "handicapped", because I can take care of myself just as well as anyone else, I cook, I clean, I am defending a dissertation this summer to get my PhD., I teach at the college level and soon at the graduate level ... so I'm actually ahead of most people in terms of life success. What I am is crippled. There's nothing at all about that word that bothers me. I'm quite a lot more bothered by people who make a big fuss about using PC words on my behalf.

That said, the best rule of thumb is to avoid using words as slurs. If someone calls me a "cripple", they are trying to use a slur, not referring to my physical condition. If you call someone with a cognitive deficit a "retard", you are using a slur, not referring to their condition. In the course of a mafia game, things should be said about someone's play and statements anyway ... not about the person himself.

I'm just going to make an opinion post (as objectively based as possible) concerning the ongoing drama here:

There are rules on the site for a reason. The site owner says the reason is because people couldn't be mature enough to go without having rules. So far, several of the folks I've met since joining the site who have been here for years seem to have a near universal disdain for new people and seem to think they are some sort of royalty and new people are beneath the dirt compared to them. They also have a tendency to violate the rules regularly. There also seem to be some insular cliques on site which contain people unable to be objective when it comes to other members in the clique. This is evidenced by, for example, the following:

1.) Mollie claiming that TPTG hasn't crossed the line, when whomever that is clearly has, even before the more recent explosion. Granted, the initial stuff wasn't huge, but it also was objectively against the rules. Just because you like someone doesn't mean they get a free pass. Also ... since when does "erotic fanfiction" belong in a mafia game? I'm pretty sure there are sites for that. fanfiction.net springs to mind.

2.) BBmolla more strongly fits the example as He isn't even trying to defend "kuribo". Apparently, kuribo is allowed to say and do anything he likes, and if we don't like it or it's against the rules, that's okay because he's kuribo.


I'm fairly certain it's this sort of situation that must have inspired the rules post in the first place.


PEDIT: @BBmolla - When I finished my work for today, Soren had just poked me for a defense. Is there someone specific you would like my opinion about? You seem to have missed the part where I stated that a blanket reads list of the 25 other players in the game is not likely to be very useful. We have some folks with almost no posts, and most of the folks with posts have ISOs that are (almost in some cases) entirely fluff.

Since turnabout is fair play, where is your reads list? You seem to think that I'm obligated to take up a chunk of my afternoon to give you something you haven't given the game yourself. What's up with that?

drixx, will plz be in my clique?

[] yes
[] no

1 of these will leave me heartbroken.

[X] yes - Of course. I'm all about the Pirate Ika clique.

[vonflare]

Why am I bieng wagoned?

Should I claim?

[VysePresident]

Posting that I'll be posting tonight to pressure myself into posting tonight instead of falling asleep again.

Short thoughts to keep this from being completely useless are that I don't like the Drixx wagon, glad to see that dying. I like Orange for Town a lot more now, Molla for Town still, ChiVi leans slightly Town for the reason Kuribo stopped Townreading them. (Don't think they'd want to admit that as scum.) Om is meh-Town. BRantz is scummy, need to look back at Copper to see if he's still scummy. Actual thoughts & reasoning coming tonight.

-Not a neighbor.

-As a side note, I think Drixx is pretty darn cool.

Actual thoughts & stuff coming tonight.

[Oranje Crush]

Copper don't replace out, it's called the ignore button. (There was a way to do it.)

[Oranje Crush]

Working on big-ass post, will come this weekend.

[Om of the Nom]

So there is the case, inasmuch as I'm willing to classify it as an actual case (it isn't), and some brief response. Reads on people will take time and effort to do properly, especially if I decide the only way to do it proper is to quote everyone. Setting up the quotes for each person, my responses, the spoiler tags and such ... pretty time consuming. I'm a bit on the fence about whether to spend that amount of time on this particular game given how close I came to being lynched while I slept and the fact that Om (and others) actually added scum points to me because I went to sleep instead of taking an hour (or longer) to put together a lengthy reads post. I think perhaps I'll see how Soren and others respond to the requested defense that I've now given.

As a question to everyone who voted for me: Why am I the only person who is being prosecuted for not having found probable scum yet? There's a whole game full of people who haven't pushed anything to any significant degree, nor posted any real reads (including just about everyone voting for me). Feels a lot like the pots calling the kettle black.


@Copper - As you can see from reviewing Om's "case", there isn't actually a case there. Om has some strange idea that one should respond to a non-motivated, non-reasoned push against them in some other way than questioning the push. Om wasn't very specific about what is an acceptable response in its mind. I've seen this sort of "I don't like that you play differently than me" situation before. The entire case boils down to nothing more than the fact that I play differently than Om, along with some amusingly bad stuff tacked on at the end. I've seen countless townies go to lynch trying to fight against situations like this. Note how many people climbed on board despite the case having no real merit. So I would say that your suggestion that I feel like I'm getting lynched no matter what is pretty spot on. I can't really change someone's mind when they're acting on purely irrational and subjective grounds.

ok so im not really arsed about you actually responding to my case the only reason i cared was because you took it upon yourself to resort to slandering tactics to try and discredit it, really i could not give a flying damn what you think about my case right now anyway

we did not ask you to make a giant lengthy reads post, we asked for your scumreads multiple times and each time you kept whining and whining that "om is scum and oh no you are being so rude and im not getting any time to respond to anything because om is so rude woe is me"

dude ok heres the thing the entire case was a criticism of you coming into the game and spending the entire time up until that point not actually having done anything that had your emotions or any townie ideals behind it, you were playing the game basically as if you were reading out of a textbook where everything was just talking about theory and barely any little dabs into an actual mafia game where you actually attack players
and now when youve been criticised you are still avoiding fulfilling any of the townie ideals i laid out and instead are biding your time complaining and whining about language used and the fact that oh no everyone is still scumreading me despite me saying i went to sleep oh no

and the worst part about this all is that you are crying WHY ME WHY ME when you have done jack shit to actually take a look at what you are saying others have done and actually apply it to the game. people in this game may have more reasons for thinking than they let out, it is not everyone's responsibility to let you know why they think what they think, not everyone is so transparent all the time. you seem to act like you care so much about finding info and seeing cases but you were not actually asking for anything until you decided to call me scum. luckily i dont care and im happy to let people be not always out there with their opinions as long as they are pushing them.


if you want to try summing up the case as "we play differently" then why weren't u fucking playing to begin with, you were sidelining and had about 1 potentially contibutive post that wasnt entirely theory ridden. that is not playing the game that is coasting. that is why i am calling you scum

[Om of the Nom]

now you can continue to fricking complain i dont even care anymore
bottom line is we want your reads
we do not care how much information you have on them
i know i am completely capable of asking for elaboration where i see fit
so just post your hecking reads and actually play the game

[Om of the Nom]

VOTE: vonflare

[BBmolla]

Drixx

Give me any reads you have

Even like "slight town on actiondan" or some shit

I don't give a fuck about you explaining the case, all I fucking care is about who you think is scum besides om


You guys are straight up like social justice warriors of mafia, would you calm your tits and play the game? Boo hoo, someone said you're scum or wrong or dumb. Just call them dumb back and move on. Your bullshit is an easy thing for scum to hide behind. So stop. If you decide you want to be offended, leave, I'm finding scum, I don't want to sift through your hurt feelings.

[Om of the Nom]

mollie whats been up why are you so lackluster this game its making me vry sad

[BBmolla]

And ISO me kid I've stated multiple reads.

[Cerberus v666]

now you can continue to fricking complain i dont even care anymore
bottom line is we want your reads
we do not care how much information you have on them
i know i am completely capable of asking for elaboration where i see fit
so just post your hecking reads and actually play the game

Who are you speaking for here Om? We want your reads? There are people who have voted for drixx, sure, but there are also people who said they accept drixx's defense. Do you have scum reads beyond this drixx 'case'? I don't know, your actions just feel fairly opportunistic, in that, again, there are 100% lurkers(such as myself to a certain extent I think) who have contributed even less to the game than drixx has. Is that scummier than answering questions?

Bad form and all to address someone attacking someone else, but it isn't sitting well with me. I've had more experience playing with Drixx than all of you, I assume...theory posts are pretty standard for him, regardless of alignment. Perhaps my extended knowledge of his play makes me less suspicious of this than I would be if it were someone else.

[Om of the Nom]

hey molla are u still scumreading pika i dont remember
also what r u thinking about soren right now

vyse whats ur read on the above 2 and soren

[vonflare]

How many votes are on me?

im town btw

[God of Power Outlets]

Excellent me and my pleasure ring are convinced...but please excuse me if I don't remove our vote, union rules.

[Om of the Nom]

now you can continue to fricking complain i dont even care anymore
bottom line is we want your reads
we do not care how much information you have on them
i know i am completely capable of asking for elaboration where i see fit
so just post your hecking reads and actually play the game

Who are you speaking for here Om? We want your reads? There are people who have voted for drixx, sure, but there are also people who said they accept drixx's defense. Do you have scum reads beyond this drixx 'case'? I don't know, your actions just feel fairly opportunistic, in that, again, there are 100% lurkers(such as myself to a certain extent I think) who have contributed even less to the game than drixx has. Is that scummier than answering questions?

Bad form and all to address someone attacking someone else, but it isn't sitting well with me. I've had more experience playing with Drixx than all of you, I assume...theory posts are pretty standard for him, regardless of alignment. Perhaps my extended knowledge of his play makes me less suspicious of this than I would be if it were someone else.

idk if you have actually been reading but even like a couple posts above this one another plyer (molla) asked for Drixx's reads, and TPTG has also asked for his reads, i am srsly not the only one.
i dont care about his defense, that is the lowest priority i had in making the case
also you are making blanket statements without naming any names, tell me, who should i be attacking if not drixx?

my scumreads are a mix of ppl like vonflare and pika and im still weird about soren and im also a bit weird about copper too
i actually need to go through the playerlist again anyway bc im having a hard time remembering who isnt actually here regularly :P

now also i have never played with drixx before either so if u have thats cool and all but pls do not try and turn this on me because you think drixx is being his stock standard self
unless you can tell me what else i should have done calling me opportunistic when i found something i didnt like and pushed it is like calling anyone scum for making a case. you also gotta remember that lurkers are lurkers because they straight up arent posting, whereas drixx is posting therefore there is more to go off. unless you want to divert all your attention to making the lurkers post, then good luck lol

[BBmolla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vonflare

[Never-melt-ice]

I still stand by my Toon Fighter vote. This morning I saw some really bad things; give me a minute to collect.

[Om of the Nom]

also hey since we're playing the reads game why dont you tell me who you are scumreading cerberus since a quick look in your iso tells me you have only expressed distaste at me for my attacks on drixx and distaste at soren for not responding to a vote that was at the time 400 posts before

[BBmolla]

AD why oranje?

[Cuttlefish]

Vote Count 1.04

vonflare (5)

- Three-Pronged Trouser God, ActionDan, Pirate Ika, Om of the Nom, BBmolla

Never-melt-ice (2)

- BRantz, Drixx

Soren (2)

- Cerberus v666, Oranje Crush

Oranje Crush (2)

- Jackel98, vonflare

Pirate Ika (2)

- Soren, copper223

Drixx (1)

- Toon Fighter

LucianRoy (1)

- Bulbasaur Commonwealth

Toon Fighter (1)

- Never-melt-ice

Ozgin (1)

- Boonskiies

Not Voting (8)

: PeregrineV, VysePresident, Reubus Swagrid, Dani, Narninian, deathfisaro, LucianRoy, ChriVi, Ozgin

With 25 votes in play, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-03-17 11:57:34).

PSA incoming.

[Never-melt-ice]

Toon Fighter has made 6 posts here overall. Here are the last four of them in order, spoilered:

Spoiler:

Wow, ten pages already. I hope you don't min if I skip the pre-game and read just after the official start:

I'm a miller and I have a conditional night skipping ability we should utilize, I'll be more specific when I'm not on my phone.

Interesting thing to claim unprompted. Am interested in the full claim, and it hopefully comes shortly after

Just skip every night and lynch everyone except him.

Good idea, but I would not believe such a role, if real, to be unlimited

Everyone might be scum in this game. And no I'm not scum. In fact, I wouldn't mind claiming straight of the bat if the need arises.

Why offer to claim off the bat? I am always wary of these kinds of claims, especially when it is of something other than a miller

Slightly OOC for a second, but fuck WoW. My ex wife left me for a guy she met on world of Warcraft.(true story) -kuribo

Off-topic, but I find the story interesting

I am a Neighbor Day Cop.

All neighbors need to claim and name their other neighbors now.

Another claim that makes me wary. Don't understand the motivations for claiming something like this D1. Doesn't make you scum, but deserves further analysis

if his power does not activate then he's lying about it, it's not like this is an unverifiable role

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unless you believe I'm a Scum Vote Charged Vig Shot Gainer One-Shot Conditional Nightskipper

Which if that's the case

lol

This post and other BBmola's make me believe in his claim. Although this IS the game for crazy claims to be believable, BB's seems ok. I see no scum motivation to make such a verifiable fake claim right of the bat D1.

In other news, and following the same line of thought, I think Never-Melt Ice needs more pressure. Even if his claim his real, I don't like how he does it immediately and without obvious motivation to do it. He could even be a Scum (Neighbor Day Cop)

So, UNVOTE: VOTE: NeverMeltIce

I like how it's not okay for me to question your motives, but it's perfectly okay for you to sling profanity at me and call me useless and so on.

Just lynch me already, and when I flip town

you can try and talk your way out of how you decided to target me and went and manipulated anything I said to try and make it look like I had slipped in the least bit.

I was particularly amused by the quoting of me posting that the info given by game mods didn't necessarily confirm separate scum teams, but conveniently not quoting the earlier post where I said my role basically confirmed multiple scum teams. Here's a good rule of thumb: if you have to take people out of context and ignore temporal order or even ignore whole posts and otherwise your "case" doesn't add up, you probably don't have a case. This goes doubly true when you ISO someone and don't bother to look at what other people said that sparked various comments or responses.

#582 is going to be hilarious if you manage to wagon me all the way to lynch. You feel so good about yourself for using fallacious reasoning and just plain being bad. I always approve of people with big egos and low intelligence (generally identified by the need to use profanity and insults to make points because they lack proper rational thinking ability) having said egos deflated.

I'm gonna go to sleep and I've got work to do tomorrow.

If town is stupid enough to let scum rush a lynch that's cool

. Should be some useful stuff that comes out of it. My role has immunity from being killed by a specific scum faction, ergo my role essentially confirms multiple scum factions. My death and flip will confirm that fully and then hopefully town is clever enough to eradicate the scum teams.

After a quick read backwards, these parts feel very bad. Don't like the tone at all. Town wouldn't basically give up 72h (or something) into a Large theme. Feels like a lying scum. Will read more but considering voting Drixxx

Removed the spoiler because it was breaking the BBcode.

Big Case by Om

How could you

possibly

know that Ozgin?

And why are you rolefishing? I mean ... are we even to RVS yet?

Let's check: VOTE: Ozgin

this post is supremely fake, even for RVS standards
this is the reason i wanted you dead from the beginning

I've been playing mafia for decades (live play). I first played forum mafia in 2007 or 2008, and I played pretty regularly since then on another site with a much smaller playgroup than here. One of the folks there suggested I come here and I finally relented and did so in December of last year. This is my 5th game on site. I'm still adjusting to the much more varied play styles here and the change in how people view things as scummy or not.

yeah ok this is cool on its own but here friends lets take a look at the rest of his ISO

VOTE: Deathfisaro - Making up for past mistakes.

@Copper - If I played each game the same, then I'd be waaaaayyyyy too easy to read, wouldn't I? It takes a conscious effort to introduce the bizarre and absurd into your lives, but I am here to help!

this is a weird vote
also hey look more self-explanations
what a gripping tale, lets continue

And also, because I love to tell this story: I used to play World of Warcraft with my wife. We were both Trolls and she played a Mage and I played a Priest. I would troll people HARD in general chat, and when they got mad, I'd be like "Do a /who on me and it will make sense." and they'd see my name and then "Troll Priest" or something like that and I would judge them based upon whether they unwound and laughed when they realized that a Troll was trolling them or if it just wound them up more. Cool people in column A and people I didn't want to spend time with in Column B.

Generally Column A included people who could be trusted to raid and just shrug off mistakes and wipes along the way, whilest Column B contained the tightwad "Minus 50 dkp" crowd.

Hooray for trolling as a strategy, amirite?

oh my what a useless post, when will you start actually playing the game instead of rambling? its like all you seem to care to do is talk about yourself in depth to pass it off as content

@Copper - You immediately noticed that I was behaving differently. That's the point. Feel free to look at my profile and check my games to date on site. My guess is you'll be able to see a different approach at work in each game. That's intentional so that I am not immediately identifiable as {VT/PRT/VS/PRS}, and also because I'm experimenting and figuring out the culture on the site here. I expect it to be awhile before I have any sort of easily identifiable meta that people can rely on, and I don't think it's at all alignment indicative since I freely say that I'm doing it on purpose as soon as I get into a game.

here we go again, more of this self-centered posting style that seems to be your signature this game. sounds like a lot of explaining away the changes in style this game. have you even played scum before onsite?

@Copper - You immediately noticed that I was behaving differently. That's the point. Feel free to look at my profile and check my games to date on site. My guess is you'll be able to see a different approach at work in each game. That's intentional so that I am not immediately identifiable as {VT/PRT/VS/PRS}, and also because I'm experimenting and figuring out the culture on the site here. I expect it to be awhile before I have any sort of easily identifiable meta that people can rely on, and I don't think it's at all alignment indicative since I freely say that I'm doing it on purpose as soon as I get into a game.

Why not establish an easy to identify VT meta and just imitate that when you're not VT?
Considering how many people saw your VT play (and it was good too) I'm not sure why you'd throw away the opportunity.
Perhaps... it's because you can't do a good town play because you aren't one =)?

Ask Copper whether I can fake town when I'm scum or not. On the other hand, I might not want to antagonize him too much ... after all, he gave me a brilliant compliment last page. The starting phase of large games is quite amusing around here.

we're doing it again my friend, still have yet to have any attacks or even questions towards any other players. are you really that self-absorbed?

There are so many problems with taking that roleclaim at face value, I don't even know where to start...

what a blanket statement, this is literally just a pointless post to serve as a statement of your opinion. where's the meat? where is the part we can actually critique? this implies so much more than what you actually delivered.

There are so many problems with taking that roleclaim at face value, I don't even know where to start...

Hit me. Start. Go. I want to hear this.

Really? This is pretty simple as a mental exercise.

There are two main possibilities here, which branch:

1.) He's telling the truth, in which case he's got the power to skip a night phase at some critical point in the game to help town, investigating him is useless, and the scum have to decide whether to kill him or let him live to cast increasing doubt on his claim. Him living far into the game wouldn't be necessarily useful as an indicator to his trustworthiness at all.

2.) He's lying. (Whether about the role or alignment or both doesn't particularly matter). The most disastrous outcome of such a fake claim being believed would be the already suggested scenario where we "trigger" his claimed ability at what we don't realize is actually LYLO and then no night skip happens and we lose.

There are various branches of possibilities for each case ... but suffice it to say that the claim throws a great deal of WINE into the proceedings, at a very early stage in the game. The question, I suppose, is whether it's both believable as a role claim (mine is bizarre enough that I could buy it) and that it's also believable that a town aligned and experienced player would have made the claim so early. The latter portion seems questionable to me.

If I'm a miller with that one-shot ability, I play to my win con and maybe breadcrumb the miller part. I don't think I would talk about that ability at the start of day one. I'm also fairly new to MS so there's that.

this post is basically a whole lot of semantics. the best part? it equates to nothing concrete. this post is just hypotheticals. there are no true stances; there are no true thoughts. he has made literally no progress in making an opinion for himself, instead he's trying to appease others. this post is literally a few paragraphs of mafia theory and nothing more, and he's trying his very best to pass it off as actual content.

I had an argument with myself about whether to post this, but it seems pretty obvious and I don't think I'm giving anything away with this; It's pretty obvious that not all outcomes of a lie on the claim are bad for town.

more weird semantic stuff that is not at all related to his opinion on issues or directed at prodding information out of anyone, there is still yet to be a single sign of this in his ISO (seriously if you doubt me go check it). also that self doubt sounds fake as heck

I don't know anything about neighborhoods, and if I have a neighbor that would be news to me. As for miller theory, it's interesting that the claim rate is so high. In the smaller playgroup I come from, miller claiming isn't considered good play.

For some reason, every time I see Oranje post, I think of

The Fault in Our Stars

.

another pointless semantics post, this is becoming a trend

Okay so did anyone else realize how flip/flop and self-contraditory Ice's posts have been? He can't even remember what he said in his original claim? Townies tend to remember their play because they have no lies to keep track of. Any time I see someone who can't even keep track of his ROLE CLAIM and what he asks other people to do in reaction to that, that's like flashing lights and alarm klaxons.

VOTE: Never-Melt-Ice

here we go
finally the very first attack in the ISO
but guess what, this is based on more semantics (and not very good ones at that)
the whole "townies dont need to keep track of lies"
yeah thats an ideal world but have you ever played mafia before?
this is almost 400 posts into the game and its so extremely weak and small compared to the amount of content that had been posted up to that point. also he barely followed up on these suspicions afterwards. there is no drive to actually follow through this attack, its just a one off incident. but why? dont town want to lynch the people they think are lying?

*shrug* - Someone's gotta get lynched on day one.

@Mod - Does the lynched person get to talk in twilight?

I'd appreciate it if my wagon gets rolling hard if I had an opportunity to share something before it goes all the way.

here comes the first sign of his submissive nature. he is rolling over and accepting his lynch as the inevitable fate about 4 votes into a 13-to-lynch wagon. there is no drive to fight this, there is no drive to do anything about it. no typical townie aggression to not being listened to. he's just accepting it. also for the record this was like the second real life day of the entire game.

I told the entire game that I'm intentionally varying my play while I learn the ropes here on this site. I'm not sure why people assume that means I'm actually not going to try out something different.

Early day 1 wagons are almost always a result of people scrambling for some reason to actually pressure someone coming out of RVS. Generally there's nothing to make a real case out of and thus it's sort of useless to argue and be all defensive about it. The absolute worst thing a town player can do is make the entire game focus on them to the exclusion of all else.

I'm really not sure how I would go about defending myself from what are essentially naked votes anyway. So now we're back to:

*shrug* - Someone's gotta get lynched on day one.


PEDIT: My life is on the line? Hardly. This is a game, after all. If you mean that I'm in danger of being lynched ... I think we're a ways away from that. Check out the discussion of voting me and see if you see anything for me to respond to. Yeah ... didn't think so.

more weird explanations for his play
more semantics talk
he has literally not attempted to do anything more than a throwaway case on a player at this point and trying his best to explain his actions away as "testing out new things"
he is also continuing to accept his wagon

So is people voting without much reasoning/argument attached a trend in larger games?
I don't know if I want them to get away with such, it'd be too easy for scum?

pedit: My vote's staying there, but it's no longer a random vote.

First day in a large game starts out random, at least so far in my experience. Unless something unusual happens or someone makes a bad slip, the day one lynch wagon usually rolls on whichever townie has the misfortune to say something awkward that gets latched onto like a remora on a shark.

do i even have to say it

As a miller I'm probably going to be lynched eventually just by nature of my role, why in the fuck would you lynch me before using my

fucking confirmable ability

.

How stupid can you be like holy fuck

I like this too.

Confirmation bias. Rationally there's no reason to believe his claim until it's tested. Since it becomes more valuable the more information we have, we'll be tempted to wait and use it. TDT suggests at least keeping open the possibility that the claim is false.

...

@Om - That was kind of harsh, don't you think? I've seen a lot of first time players over the years I've been playing mafia on forums. No player in his 2nd game is gonna have a fully developed understanding of the game, but to just dismiss someone out of hand and be openly abrasive about it just seems a bit much. Admittedly, I have a soft spot for newer players, and especially Reubus because he reminds me a lot of me in my first forum game many years ago, and I also suggested he come play a large game to get some experience with different play styles and approaches, so he's basically in this game because it needed people and I suggested he could learn a lot and improve his play by playing in it. AND I respect his civility, which sometimes gets tossed out the window for little effective use.

All of that said, this isn't a newbie game and nobody is obligated to help out new folks. I would, however, like to submit that a positive attitude towards newer players and a willingness to invest in them is significantly more likely to be rewarding than throwing them to the sharks and being snarky and judgmental. I mean ... being good at this game is a learned skill. Nobody is born inherently good at it, and while some folks have knowledge and skills which are useful in progressing quicker than others, the general barrier to entry for adequate play isn't really all that high, and even then, "good" is rather subjective in this case.

@BBmolla - Didn't someone already claim neighbor a couple pages back? I'm almost certain I saw someone say they were a neighbor.

@all - the best policy is to attack someone's play or what someone says, and not the someone himself. I haven't been here long, but in that short time I've seen a lot of needless animosity arise out of people living "up" to John Gabriel's Greater Internet F&%$wad Theory (google it for a funny Penny-Arcade comic from like 11 years ago).

2 massive paragraphs that talk about exactly nothing. thats it, thats the point of this entire post
oh yeah, cant forget this weird halfdefense thing going on which doesnt actually address the concerns or anything set against him

Be specific Oranje! If you believe certain people are lurking, then ask them directly to answer some questions. A blanket "lurkers should stop lurking" isn't usually very productive.

...

Be specific Oranje! If you believe certain people are lurking, then ask them directly to answer some questions. A blanket "lurkers should stop lurking" isn't usually very productive.

Couldn't you instead of posting this just ask lurk questions

When I feel like pushing lurkers, I'm sure I will single them out, starting with the most egregious. Right now there's enough interesting going on that I haven't really noted who is hardcore lurking, which is actually a bit odd for me to realize. I played so many years with 48 hour days and I've already become super spoiled by the much longer days here. There's a lot of time to be thorough and whilest I still despise lurking, I find that what I view as lurking has radically changed in my ~3 months here.

this post achieves nothing either. just pointless words made to sound more opinionated than he is

My bad for misreading you Om.

It seems to me that it's rather obvious to the scum teams that they have opposite scum teams, right? My role seems to confirm two scum factions, and my guess is they already know it because it seems obvious they would have to be small and would realize their team size indicated another scum faction.

...

like i honestly really dont know what ur tryin to achieve by saying something so common knowledge without followup

It didn't seem /quite/ mod confirmed to me that the scum in the two origin games would be kept separate. My role makes me 99.9% certain that there are multiple teams though. Since it was possible to interpret the scant setup info we were given in either way, and since the scum would already know, I felt that stating my role pretty much confirms multiple scum teams had value to the town. As you play more with me you will find that I do my very best to avoid assuming things that aren't empirically confirmed. I've been burned way too many times in the past by making assumptions that seemed safe but weren't. I learned my lesson.

...

everyone not voting needs to put a vote down asap
preferably on drixx or brantz

Either your play here is really bad or you're scum. My role is unlikely to provide much utility so I'll gladly trade me for you.

"I'm your Huckleberry" - Doc Holliday,

Tombstone

ok here we go
here is the cherry on top
this is where things start to get fun, but i'll explain this in a second

everyone not voting needs to put a vote down asap
preferably on drixx or brantz

You seem to be in quite a hurry. You also don't seem to care whether there's any case. So far as I can tell, nobody has actually bothered to put a case together on me. I'm amused by how transparently scummy you're behaving.

Everyone needs to vote? Really? Why is everyone obligated to vote just because you say so? Votes are significant and frequently used to drive cases against people. You seem to want people to put votes down even if they don't find anyone particularly scummy. There isn't any obvious town motive that I can see to this.

And before you cite that there is one more player than votes available, according to the mod, there's no need to make everyone vote to find who can't vote. Presumably since there was no official game time before that post, whomever can't vote has that restriction as part of his/her/its role and thus can just say so. And even if you are trying to PoE figure out who can't vote ... you haven't said so anywhere.

So let's see. You seem to think everyone is obligated to vote just because you say so. You haven't actually made a case against BRantz or I, but you seem to be in a big hurry to push people to vote us. What alignment would best explain your haste and seeming indifference to who gets lynched?

Town wants as much info and as many connections and reactions as possible to go on. Scum want to get through the game with as few risks of screwing up as possible. So I'll say again ... either your play is bad, or you're scum. Your response to my last post suggests the latter fairly strongly.

ok here we go, here comes the kicker
there is no lead up to this
you have literally just come in out of nowhere and expressed suspicion on me
and yeah thats cool and all and i do it too so im not gonna hate on u for that on its own

but do you want to know what bugs me
there is no asking for explanations
you are not caring why people are scumreading you
but here you are acting like im scum for barely saying anything about why
there is no "hey why are you doing this"
its just a "you are doing this so im going to call you scum for it"

you have no desire to actually take a look at my thoughts behind what i say in thread
you are literally just looking for something to capitalise on to get the attention off of you
the only other attack you've made in the entire game has been based on a wonky action from another player that you never cared to investigate either
you do not spend any time actually pushing your reads
instead you spend all your time talking about how you are playing and why

almost every single post you've made is either trying to explain away your actions with "im testing out a new style"
or its a "somebody has to be lynched on day 1 so i guess its gotta be me"
or just useless semantics

there is no imminent death awaiting for you
you can change this by actually taking charge and outwardly projecting town thought processes
but you arent, you are trying to skate on by with meaningless posts that just look content-y, but in reality they are nothing more than shells
there is no merit to what you say, there are no real opinions
everything you have said that is even remotely conclusive ends in a roundabout statement with no actual stance on the issue
the only clear stance you have made is when i have made my move to come at you, you took the glaring issue (no stated case) and you tried to make it the focal point without investigating any further than on the surface

End of spoilered content.

After reading all that, yeah, Drixx is a godd place to put a vote.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Drixx

Yeah, I'm done. When someone is behaving so stupidly that they define "It's early in the morning and I need to sleep" as "still extremely reluctant to give out reads", there's no reasoning with them.

Have fun feeling stupid when I flip exactly as I claimed Om. I will be back post game to taunt you for thinking you're good when you made a terrible, fallacy ridden case against me, and then were so excited about finally thinking you were good at the game that you decided I don't get to sleep or handle my RL work, and asking to do so makes me scummy. There's nothing in your worthless pile of tripe post to defend.

I think it's hilarious that such bad play will rob the town of the rest of day 1. I reject Copper's assertion that this is my fault. I made a reasonable request to sleep (which I've done), and to get my work done (which I have not yet), and got piled on and the driver on my wagon called me scummy for wanting to handle the basic necessities of life.

@Copper - When people are either scum and will twist anything you say or do to fit their agenda, or just really bad town and think asking to sleep is a scum tell, there's no fighting that.

Even if you are town, you are not giving us much to work with here. You act like a spoiled brat and refuse to find scum other than OMGUSing Om. The day has barely begun and you are giving up and throwing the towel. Your attitude justifies the votes just as much as your poor plays, so you should work on that.

Not only does Toon Fighter jump into the thread out of nowhere to attack low-hanging fruit (multiple votes had been placed on Drixx just before), but he does nothing to comment on his previous scumread on me, which partially clashes with the Drixx scumread - if I'm not mistaken, part of why Drixx is perceived as scum relates to his negative thoughts on the claims, which at least in regards to my claim Toon Fighter should agree with.

I see post 610 as him establishing preparation to jump on the Drixx wagon, and his lack of a vote there disingenuous. I find it hard to believe he really did find the Drixx post quoted in 610 as that scummy, then just suddenly see Om's case and only then be driven to make the vote.

Then there's the last of those, post 629, which is Toon (hypocritically) telling Drixx that "even if you are town" he's not giving town much to work with, attacking Drixx on personality. "Your attitude justifies the votes just as much as your poor plays." Not only does it provide him an out of actually committing, but he's unnecessarily doubling up on his reasoning for voting Drixx. This is one of the easiest positions for scum to take.

The posts in succession read more like scum wanting to get in the backseat of a wagon without getting called out for lack of reasoning, instead of town developing a read though actual scumhunting mental process.

I think Drixx and vonflare, while they may be saying objectionable or flat-out stupid things, are less likely to be scum than Toon Fighter, who's hiding behind others' reasoning to avoid and taking stances that not only look faked, but also somewhat contradictory in context.

TL;DR

- Toon Fighter's very few and limited-content posts, as well as his "attack" on Drixx/low-hanging fruit are characteristic of lurker, backseat-of-the-bandwagon scum.

His huge quotewalls try to mask his almost non-existent contribution, and he has been skating by just nodding along with the group, first against my claim and then against Drixx.

And right now he's a better wagon, and probably lynch, than Drixx or vonflare.

[vonflare]

Psa incoming? What's that mean? O probs about trouser.

I thought I had more than 5 votes.

Has Dan justified his vote on me? I can't find it.

Eat some pecan pie and be happy.

I'm gonna ISO toon now I guess.