We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[copper223]

@Dan
so what prompted that question?

[ActionDan]

A question to the mods about my own role on a hunch, and it turns out I made a wrong assumption.

To expand on that, I too am bulletproof (from something), and the wording of the role PM and drixx's claim made me assume something I shouldn't have about what exactly I was bulletproof to. That has changed. Now it's imperative to sort drixx's own status

[ActionDan]

A question to the mods about my own role on a hunch, and it turns out I made a wrong assumption.

To expand on that, I too am bulletproof (from something), and the wording of the role PM and drixx's claim made me assume something I shouldn't have about what exactly I was bulletproof to. That has changed. Now it's imperative to sort drixx's own status

[Drixx]

@Copper - It's better to say that I was confused by you stepping in and helping halt the bad wagon on me earlier in the day phase and then suggesting the dayvig shoot me. That seemed like a rather contradictory position to take. You're attentive enough to catch most attempts at probing you subtly, so I went for the direct in your face poke and you responded pretty much as expected. Did you think I actually continued to read you scum after that interaction? I just didn't bother to put together a more thorough case on you or convince anyone else that you were scum? Does that make any sense?

[Drixx]

A question to the mods about my own role on a hunch, and it turns out I made a wrong assumption.

To expand on that, I too am bulletproof (from something), and the wording of the role PM and drixx's claim made me assume something I shouldn't have about what exactly I was bulletproof to. That has changed. Now it's imperative to sort drixx's own status

There's a really good reason I haven't attempted to paraphrase my role PM.

[BRantz]

Alright so Lucian, my scum reads.

Vonflare: Von has done litterally nothing to forward the game, most of his posts consist of things like (90,447 and 825) I also really didn't like 728s flippant reaction to a wagon on him. If his posting isn't scummy it is at the very least anti-town.

Soren/replacement: 618 pinged me as off, even if he has been playing mafia for less than a year (which he said) there is literal zero chance he hasn't heard the term hammer before. Then pretty much every post fro 844 to 1007 is just completely awful. I see no town motivation for the way he was playing. Magua has been interesting but makes me feel a little better about this slot.

Lucian: Yes, you claimed, and it is even a confirmable one. I don't think that 100% makes you town (unless scum 1-shot vig is something bastard, then I will withdraw my whole case here). But you have tried so hard to fence sit this game that I am not completely convinced you are town (things like 32, 114, 115, 171 (you never voted chivri), 380, etc.) have me feeling uneasy on you.

[ActionDan]

A question to the mods about my own role on a hunch, and it turns out I made a wrong assumption.

To expand on that, I too am bulletproof (from something), and the wording of the role PM and drixx's claim made me assume something I shouldn't have about what exactly I was bulletproof to. That has changed. Now it's imperative to sort drixx's own status

There's a really good reason I haven't attempted to paraphrase my role PM.

Would you be suspicious of me If I said something along the lines of: "I am bulletproof to 'Volcano mafia' (again using BBm's miller claim so there isn't controversy here)", or "I am bulletproof to 'specific SK that has a knife'".

I am am trying to be as unobtrusive as possible while I probe you in case your town. Since I'd like my own BPness to (something) remain secret if possible in that event.

Please note, you're the one who claimed first. I didn't have to do any of this. But it's important

[copper223]

@Copper - It's better to say that I was confused by you stepping in and helping halt the bad wagon on me earlier in the day phase and then suggesting the dayvig shoot me. That seemed like a rather contradictory position to take. You're attentive enough to catch most attempts at probing you subtly, so I went for the direct in your face poke and you responded pretty much as expected. Did you think I actually continued to read you scum after that interaction? I just didn't bother to put together a more thorough case on you or convince anyone else that you were scum? Does that make any sense?

Okay this is legit the first post you would write as town (ironically I predic you will get some flak for this), but you're good enough to fake it as well, why did you keep your vote on me then until Dan directly threatend you?

[vonflare]

Alright so Lucian, my scum reads.

Vonflare: Von has done litterally nothing to forward the game, most of his posts consist of things like (90,447 and 825) I also really didn't like 728s flippant reaction to a wagon on him. If his posting isn't scummy it is at the very least anti-town.

Soren/replacement: 618 pinged me as off, even if he has been playing mafia for less than a year (which he said) there is literal zero chance he hasn't heard the term hammer before. Then pretty much every post fro 844 to 1007 is just completely awful. I see no town motivation for the way he was playing. Magua has been interesting but makes me feel a little better about this slot.

Lucian: Yes, you claimed, and it is even a confirmable one. I don't think that 100% makes you town (unless scum 1-shot vig is something bastard, then I will withdraw my whole case here). But you have tried so hard to fence sit this game that I am not completely convinced you are town (things like 32, 114, 115, 171 (you never voted chivri), 380, etc.) have me feeling uneasy on you.

@brantz: sorry my posting has been lacking extensive content. I'm involved in a LOT of games currently.

Il try to be more active.

[ActionDan]

Please note, you're the one who claimed first

Also in addition, if I were BP scum of any kind, and BP from any source of your choice, I still would never have vouched for you in that way, because I would never risk giving that info to potentially scum of a different fiber

[deathfisaro]

@AD + Drixx
This is a mashup of 2 games, so if BP existed in both games, it's easy to make BP from game1 to be scum1-specific-BP and BP from game2 to be scum2-specific-BP.
So I'm guessing there's a higher chance the factions you two are immune to are different and won't help in identifying each other as town. Just keep them secret and make both scum factions guessing.

[Lihin]

Partway through reading, commenting on top 3 wagons now (von, toon, vyse):
Vonflare - His posts don't feel like they'd come from scum pov; his pushes (ice particularly) and other posts like his #71+#73 leave him extremely low-hanging fruit and my gut says that scum would not be recklessly making himself look so scummy.
Toon Fighter - Do agree that he looks fairly lurky and low-contribution. Also has yet to address arguments against himself, and wants to put off neighbor claims for some reason. Leaning scummy, would hop on his wagon given choice between these 3.
VysePresident - I like what he does have, especially #1068 and #1273-76. Feels town to me.
VOTE: Toon Fighter while I sort out my thoughts on everybody else.

[copper223]

This is a mashup of 2 games, so if BP existed in both games, it's easy to make BP from game1 to be scum1-specific-BP and BP from game2 to be scum2-specific-BP.
So I'm guessing there's a higher chance the factions you two are immune to are different and won't help in identifying each other as town. Just keep them secret and make both scum factions guessing.

It does no harm to probe if the scum flavour is similar in both games as it is for the neighbourhoods, we know those are named after canadian cities, well let's say the scumteams are named after natural disasters that occur in canada, say avalanche and snowstorm, if Drixx and Dan agree on the common theme (and by no means on the actual names that should never be revealed), then that would help a lot, of course if they don't agree that doesn't prove anything.

[copper223]

But it's true that if the themes are radically different that gives scum a hint as to which faction they are potentially immune to if they are town, I was looking at the upside (matching flavour) only, so it would have to be done in a very general way to begin with, maybe you're right that it's not worth it...

[Drixx]

A question to the mods about my own role on a hunch, and it turns out I made a wrong assumption.

To expand on that, I too am bulletproof (from something), and the wording of the role PM and drixx's claim made me assume something I shouldn't have about what exactly I was bulletproof to. That has changed. Now it's imperative to sort drixx's own status

There's a really good reason I haven't attempted to paraphrase my role PM.

Would you be suspicious of me If I said something along the lines of: "I am bulletproof to 'Volcano mafia' (again using BBm's miller claim so there isn't controversy here)", or "I am bulletproof to 'specific SK that has a knife'".

I am am trying to be as unobtrusive as possible while I probe you in case your town. Since I'd like my own BPness to (something) remain secret if possible in that event.

Please note, you're the one who claimed first. I didn't have to do any of this. But it's important

I am now very satisfied that you have a role PM similar to mine and you aren't fishing. I think it would be best if we didn't discuss this any further. Leave scum wondering whether they should risk a failed kill on us or leave us alive as fairly confirmed town {The obvious anti-case to us being conftown is that we're scumbuddies who made up BP and are backing each other, which is WiFoM I can't see any way out of nor any way to help the town work through. They either trust you and I or they don't}

unvote

@Copper - It's better to say that I was confused by you stepping in and helping halt the bad wagon on me earlier in the day phase and then suggesting the dayvig shoot me. That seemed like a rather contradictory position to take. You're attentive enough to catch most attempts at probing you subtly, so I went for the direct in your face poke and you responded pretty much as expected. Did you think I actually continued to read you scum after that interaction? I just didn't bother to put together a more thorough case on you or convince anyone else that you were scum? Does that make any sense?

Okay this is legit the first post you would write as town (ironically I predic you will get some flak for this), but you're good enough to fake it as well, why did you keep your vote on me then until Dan directly threatend you?

I don't move my vote around a lot, as you well know. I put it where I think there is scum or where putting the vote can help me solidify a read. You were in no danger of being lynched with my one vote on you, and there was therefore no reason to rush to put it elsewhere.

That said, I took some time to read through Toon's ISO, and while I still need to look at posts in context, I feel fairly comfortable with him in a day 1 scenario. There are possibly a couple people who might look a bit more scummy; however, on day 1 it's really easy for town to be made to look scummy. I'm a bit bothered by Toon's {lack of} serious response to his wagon.

VOTE: Toon

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

Sorry I've been gone for the last few days. If you read my blog (which, let's face it, nobody does), you'd know that I've been going through some seriously harsh times as of late, particularly over the weekend.

In this case, basically two all-nighters in a row doing nothing but studying to so much as keep my job. I joke all the time that I'm paid to sit around and do nothing, but truth is, getting a recert is absolutely BRUTAL, taxing both physically *and* mentally.

Good news is, won't have to do it for another two years; I passed. Bad news is, I've been left in a position where I practically siteflaked, albeit over a short timeframe, and it's going to take me quite a while to do "damage control", so to speak, on what my absence caused.

Soyeah, that's why I haven't been around for the last four days or so.

I'd say I'm giving this game my attention now, but that's a lie. It's already past midnight, and I've got SO much work to get done on here.

I'll do what I can, but...well, this is what it is. Comes with the territory. :/

(Also, spread the word. I might not get the word out to everywhere it needs to go out to tonight.)

In particular, this game I almost entirely forgot about, which is bad because it's the one which most needed my attention BEFORE I left.
I want to say I'll read tonight, but that's a lie; I'm going to bed. My buddies can pick this post up. (Sorry that I've been so negligent, but I'm determined not to flake from the hydra.)

Well, hate to be the bearer of bad news after my post just yesterday, but, uh, more bad news for my activity--
Today, one of my uncles died. I'm not emotionally compromised (basically the only thing I feel is sadness, but it's sadness for not feeling anything and not true sadness), and I'm not flying to Michigan for the funeral (I live in Washington), so I'm not gonna be V/LA in any definite terms, but, well, my mom IS going to the funeral.

And her departure will assuredly affect my availability in some manner or another. Just be on guard for it; this is me saying I'll probably be normal, but COULD have reduced activity.

(Sorry for the need of a pickup. Again.)

Obligatory pickups for our girl. Take your time, Mastin.

In (somewhat relevant) news while we catch up again, I don't like Lucian's claim and honestly don't want this day to end without him confirming it.

Also, Lucian, when you say it's a 1-shot Vengilante, does that mean that if you use your vig you cannot be vengeful and vice versa, or is it a one shot vengeful AND a 1-shot Vig and you're contracting/portmanteauing them for convenience?

-ivy

(slightly unrelated: If I'm the only one posting on this hydra I'm gonna make some big sadfaces. BULBA GET OUT HERE! MY WHIPS ARE LONGER THAN YOURS!

[ActionDan]

ActionDan is scum fishing for whether or not I'm immune to his faction.

My question now is,

Are you immune to a specific scum faction

yes/no?

Let me correct that.

Are you immune to a specific scum faction that ISN'T an SK

So I suppose you understand now why I asked this question? (to be honest answering here truthfully shouldn't hurt, if you think I'm town here [the answer either way should still leave scum guessing])

[Ozgin]

So I just ISO'd Toon Fighter...

What the actual hell are you guys all doing?

"He's scum for not defending himself." Bullshit. "He's scum for not posting." Likewise bullshit.

Of course he hasn't said anything to defend himself, that would imply he's said anything at all! I started to get swept behind and my amount of contribution suffered greatly because of it. Does that make me scum? No. I didn't post for at least 3 days, because of things in my meatworld existence that I had to take care of. Holy hell, I'd hate to see the mob formed against me if I left for any more time. I'm glad I decided to post tonight, or my wagon could have started next!

At first I thought there might be something to this Toon case, but there really isn't.

Mod, can we prod Toon?

There, if he doesn't respond to prod, he'll get replaced, and we can have somebody who can actually stand up for themselves. Until then, the posts by Toon are null, and there's no sense in lynching someone who hasn't even made themselves out to be scum. I mean, in all 12 of those posts, I think they were all pretty null, maybe a slight lean town at best.

I seriously think we should put our votes towards someone who is both a) active enough to respond to their wagon, whether or not they defend themselves, they should at least be saying something and b) has enough posts/background information in this game up to this point for any of us to take a real solid scum stance on them.

Granted, I don't know who this is yet, but it certainly isn't someone as null as Toon.

[deathfisaro]

ActionDan is scum fishing for whether or not I'm immune to his faction.

My question now is,

Are you immune to a specific scum faction

yes/no?

Let me correct that.

Are you immune to a specific scum faction that ISN'T an SK

So I suppose you understand now why I asked this question? (to be honest answering here truthfully shouldn't hurt, if you think I'm town here [the answer either way should still leave scum guessing])

To be honest, you asked it in a way that would be seen as fishing by everyone reading your post.

[copper223]

@Vyse
I am not fond of you making a case on me by subtly implying I am doing some of the things you say you look for when scumhunting while at the same time kind of describing how you started this game as your typical town attitude, that seems a bit too convenient but I'll pretend to take this at face value for the sake of the conversation.

I think you have a good point about looking for a narrative when scumhunting, if a player seems to strive to be consistent for the sake of being consistent I also would find it scum indicative, but I have just been accused of being inconsistent so if you're town you should look at the entirety of my posting and not just on my scumreads of you and Bulbasaur.

The reason why I scumread Bulbasaur early is based on a previous game I had with Mastin2, where she played SK and tried to mimic her towngame (according to her), it came off the same way to me, their reads this game look stilted and only given when there is pressure on the slot, those are the kind of reads I might come up with as scum so that nobody could accuse me of not scumhunting (because both Drixx and Lucian did things this game that can be objectively thought of as scummy) if I didn't have much interest or time to dedicate to the game. They have done nothing to make me change my mind so I don't see why I would have changed my read on them, in fact I was just proven almost certainly correct on Lucian (I told both them and BBmolla I thought he looked scummy but was town) so if anything my scumread of them should be stronger now because there was no follow up on what I told them and I am also not fond of Ivysaur posting his suspicion on Lucian now that both someone else and I said scumreading Lucian in this situation is more likely to be a town dumbtell, that seems pretty manipulative, do you see a reason for me to have changed my mind on them?

As for my case on you, I told you where the scumread comes from, I've seen scumpartners do this (like deathfisaro who confirmed it in this game) and I've come from a game where I just caught scum Nachomamma8 doing the exact same thing, I think if you're town and busy it's more likely you will say so once and then get annoyed with players questioning you or you just get replaced, the fact you have so often excused yourself for not posting looks like you apologizing to your scummates for not being as active as you should to help the team or as preemptively defending yourself from the rest of us for something that if true is outside your control so I see no big reason to keep asking forgiveness, the way you characterized it is also not very fair as you have used this excuse a number of times, I did not jump on you the first time you behaved as described.

As for my D1 town game, what I usually try to do is to get a solid list of townies and potential scumplayers by giving early reads about what I like and what I dislike, usually it has to do with the motivation I most likely believe a player would have for saying what he is saying or it can also be how awkward/confident they appear to be or based on some tell that worked for me in a previous game so I'd use it again to see if it was coincidence or actually applicable, I then base most of my early reads on the reactions I am getting from them, this game I have the advantage of knowing quite a few players and of some them having reliable patterns when playing town so I already started with a better list than usual-

I further try to make everyone else commit to giving reads often and then I try to narrow down the list of suspects and push on them until something gives, this is where the bull in the china shop comes in. Later on the game I go back and revist the read evolution of every player and how they voted, I check for how opportunistic they have been, how likely it is they were reading players using information that was not available at the time, I check to see if the evolution of those reads make sense and I also do some VCA.

[Lihin]

@ozgin: Toon Fighter literally posted less than half a day ago and gave no indication that he is unable to post. I do not see why this warrants prodding. Also, he's had opportunity to defend himself (his last post was after attacks came in on him).

[copper223]

@Mollie
If the general town opinion stays the same and/or Toon doesn't post something I find town indicative, I will consolidate on him tomorrow.

[God of Power Outlets]

The composition of the Toon wagon should be enough to make you stay away. How many scumreads are on it?

[copper223]

@TGTP
This is multiball so that's a murky field, I am fairly sure the wagon is town driven and I also think Mollie is town so that's something, I think I did my best to explain which players I would personally gun for, if those names are not in the range of possible lynches and it seems like Vyse is collecting some townreads, I am not going to risk a messy deadline lynch or a retarded no lynch for maybe town maybe scum Toon.

[LucianRoy]

Alright so Lucian, my scum reads.

Vonflare: Von has done litterally nothing to forward the game, most of his posts consist of things like (90,447 and 825) I also really didn't like 728s flippant reaction to a wagon on him. If his posting isn't scummy it is at the very least anti-town.

Soren/replacement: 618 pinged me as off, even if he has been playing mafia for less than a year (which he said) there is literal zero chance he hasn't heard the term hammer before. Then pretty much every post fro 844 to 1007 is just completely awful. I see no town motivation for the way he was playing. Magua has been interesting but makes me feel a little better about this slot.

Lucian: Yes, you claimed, and it is even a confirmable one. I don't think that 100% makes you town (unless scum 1-shot vig is something bastard, then I will withdraw my whole case here). But you have tried so hard to fence sit this game that I am not completely convinced you are town (things like 32, 114, 115, 171 (you never voted chivri), 380, etc.) have me feeling uneasy on you.

Well, I wanted the scum to kill me so could use my vengeful ability, but I guess that won't happen at this point.
Chivri was my RVS/ slight scumread kina vote. 124

I'll confirm it as soon as I make up my mind...