We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[deathfisaro]

@Death - You never did answer my question in 1808 , by the way.

That wasn't a rhetorical question? What's there to answer? By the way, these are rhetorical questions, I don't NEED them answered.

We can talk about deathfisaro, I've gone back and re-read the reaction test and that part about the: interesting, how can I not be town? and I can see it as potentially scummy, plus ai really did not like how hard he went on Jackel, it was clear the objective was killing him off rather than giving him a chance to esplain himself and that looks like a pretty mafia mindset, I like your scumgame a lot more if you are scum this time.

Sorry to disappoint you. Didn't have any opportunity to improve my scumgame since the last one.
And I can't never say I'm confident you're town after a game like that. The game was playing itself and the boat was headed to a mountain but you were also rowing hardcore and town was cheering for you.
Oh and I thought how you play this game was to find scummy and kill scummy to kill scum. I wasn't going to spend the time and effort to meta Jackel, eventually I did thanks to Pirate Ika but that made me wonder how Vyse bothered to read Lucian's book when he doesn't with this thread.

[copper223]

Hmm. Anti-town?

You are fence sitting on every major point, even on your Drixx read (where you are an expert and thus where there is more value to your opinion compared to someone else) you stayed neutral for the longest period and ended up stating it's not enough of a scumread to make you want to lynch him, your scumreads are players it's impossible to lynch (also quite insulting, you think I claim investigative as scum to get jackel98 lynched and don't even manage to get the job done to boot, Was für ein Scherz) and now you're not even trying to work towards a lynch by expressing your preferences via vote when there is little time left, how would you classify your play?

I noted the same issue Kuribo told T-bone about, but it's more contradictory than just Marquis as your other scumread is me apparently (the other claimed investigative), since you know that nonsense is not going to fly you propose Boon as a third name, but you're not even sure about that... like what is this.

[Drixx]

Cerb has been a friend for many years, and generally I'm hesitant to stick my neck out for folks, but I do have something useful to say about him from our playing together and knowing each other for years.

1.) Cerberus has been fooled by me more than once when I was scum, even when he was scum reading me. I am not sure he ever feels

certain

about his read on me. It helps that we frequently discuss games after they end and those discussion are useful in both of us getting better.

2.) Cerberus is almost certainly overwhelmed by the number of posts. I know it took me about a month to make the transition to taking in so much information, and even so I still haven't come up with a good way to organize notes and thoughts to avoid having to do large re-reads. Cerberus is very detail oriented and organized as a person, so my guess is that he's having a bit of trouble bringing his usual evaluation skill to the game. He has never lurked like this in a game with me before, and he has been scum a few times so it doesn't seem alignment indicative.

3.) Cerberus was almost certainly turned off by the ugliness that happened a few days ago. He (like me) plays this game for fun and that sort of drama is generally a big time mood killer.


I would personally suggest helping him acclimate to the larger post volume and giving him a chance to snap into his usual self. I do not believe his current paucity of posts and analysis is alignment indicative (re-stating for emphasis). FWIW and YMMV.

[copper223]

@deathfisaro

And I can't never say I'm confident you're town after a game like that.

You sure can, check if my play is bad as scum and if it is you have an easy townread in most cases, sometimes I might be doing something as scum that is not yet apparent or I might be having a terrible game, but in this case you would have to go into some parallel universe where my scumrole is the scum equivalent of The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass to try and explain why I fakeclaim Jackel98 there or you should postulate I just had a brain lobotomy.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. Anti-town?

You are fence sitting on every major point, even on your Drixx read (where you are an expert and thus where there is more value to your opinion compared to someone else) you stayed neutral for the longest period and ended up stating it's not enough of a scumread to make you want to lynch him, your scumreads are players it's impossible to lynch (also quite insulting, you think I claim investigative as scum to get jackel98 lynched and don't even manage to get the job done to boot, Was für ein Scherz) and now you're not even trying to work towards a lynch by expressing your preferences via vote when there is little time left, how would you classify your play?

I noted the same issue Kuribo told T-bone about, but it's more contradictory than just Marquis as your other scumread is me apparently (the other claimed investigative), since you know that nonsense is not going to fly you propose Boon as a third name, but you're not even sure about that... like what is this.

This is me refusing to be stupid enough to form lynch strength opinions on people without a single point of hard data about them. D1 is nonsense. Everything anyone talks about on D1 is nonsense. AT THE MOMENT. Going forward, when we see who gets NK'd, what flips reveal, what cop results show, what claims prove true, I can look at this ocean of information in addition to having mod confirmed knowledge. Then this information becomes valuable, and I can form an opinion of worth using it. Seeing who's pressuring who, and who's scumhunting actively, and who's lurking, etc, means NOTHING because good scum and good town can do all those things, to a purpose. Without any confirmed information about ANYTHING, it's all just a bunch of BS. I know we need to lynch someone, because that's the only way we get that information, but I find it laughable that you people think you're good enough at this silly game to actually have a good chance of figuring out who scum is based on JUST their words or lack thereof. IF you're that good, why aren't they just as good at tricking you? You're fools if you think a successful lynch on scum D1 is all that much more than blind luck, barring a massive slip on the part of the scum.

So. That's why I fence sit on anything. I know my alignment. The only person who's opinion I actually trust on anything is ChriVi, because I know ChriVi is town. For the rest of you...I'd rather watch you all converse, because you're doing more than enough of it for me to analyze in the future, then attempt to dictate the direction these events go.

[copper223]

Ok Drixx, help me out here if you are town, we have a wagon on Jackel98 that is a high risk proposition if we are wrong because we end up lynching an investigative and given Jackel98's previous play it's not impossible for him to be town here, we have the start of a wagon on absent BRantz from my strongest scumread this game Vyse which I find distasteful on multiple levels, and when I try to move the rest of town to organize a CW I get mostly complete inertia, this is a problem.

[copper223]

So. That's why I fence sit on anything. I know my alignment. The only person who's opinion I actually trust on anything is ChriVi, because I know ChriVi is town. For the rest of you...I'd rather watch you all converse, because you're doing more than enough of it for me to analyze in the future, then attempt to dictate the direction these events go.

Choosing not to do anything is a choice in of itself, almost always a bad one if you are town.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb has been a friend for many years, and generally I'm hesitant to stick my neck out for folks, but I do have something useful to say about him from our playing together and knowing each other for years.

1.) Cerberus has been fooled by me more than once when I was scum, even when he was scum reading me. I am not sure he ever feels

certain

about his read on me. It helps that we frequently discuss games after they end and those discussion are useful in both of us getting better.

2.) Cerberus is almost certainly overwhelmed by the number of posts. I know it took me about a month to make the transition to taking in so much information, and even so I still haven't come up with a good way to organize notes and thoughts to avoid having to do large re-reads. Cerberus is very detail oriented and organized as a person, so my guess is that he's having a bit of trouble bringing his usual evaluation skill to the game. He has never lurked like this in a game with me before, and he has been scum a few times so it doesn't seem alignment indicative.

3.) Cerberus was almost certainly turned off by the ugliness that happened a few days ago. He (like me) plays this game for fun and that sort of drama is generally a big time mood killer.


I would personally suggest helping him acclimate to the larger post volume and giving him a chance to snap into his usual self. I do not believe his current paucity of posts and analysis is alignment indicative (re-stating for emphasis). FWIW and YMMV.

Shush. They can treat me however they like, I take pleasure in bruising the ego's of people by being lynched and showing that they were wrong, and perhaps aren't as good at this as they think they are.

[Cerberus v666]

So. That's why I fence sit on anything. I know my alignment. The only person who's opinion I actually trust on anything is ChriVi, because I know ChriVi is town. For the rest of you...I'd rather watch you all converse, because you're doing more than enough of it for me to analyze in the future, then attempt to dictate the direction these events go.

Choosing not to do anything is a choice in of itself, almost always a bad one if you are town.

What is the point of this post? What are you saying? Are you trying to give me advice, or are you trying to form a case against me? I reject your advice as being simplistic and uninspired, if advice is what it's meant to be.

[copper223]

I already explained what I am trying to do, I am probing everyone that hasn't yet expressed an opinion to see if we can do better than lynching potential investigative lynchbait Jackel98.

[God of Power Outlets]

Hmm. Anti-town?

You are fence sitting on every major point, even on your Drixx read (where you are an expert and thus where there is more value to your opinion compared to someone else) you stayed neutral for the longest period and ended up stating it's not enough of a scumread to make you want to lynch him, your scumreads are players it's impossible to lynch (also quite insulting, you think I claim investigative as scum to get jackel98 lynched and don't even manage to get the job done to boot, Was für ein Scherz) and now you're not even trying to work towards a lynch by expressing your preferences via vote when there is little time left, how would you classify your play?

I noted the same issue Kuribo told T-bone about, but it's more contradictory than just Marquis as your other scumread is me apparently (the other claimed investigative), since you know that nonsense is not going to fly you propose Boon as a third name, but you're not even sure about that... like what is this.

This is me refusing to be stupid enough to form lynch strength opinions on people without a single point of hard data about them. D1 is nonsense. Everything anyone talks about on D1 is nonsense. AT THE MOMENT. Going forward, when we see who gets NK'd, what flips reveal, what cop results show, what claims prove true, I can look at this ocean of information in addition to having mod confirmed knowledge. Then this information becomes valuable, and I can form an opinion of worth using it. Seeing who's pressuring who, and who's scumhunting actively, and who's lurking, etc, means NOTHING because good scum and good town can do all those things, to a purpose. Without any confirmed information about ANYTHING, it's all just a bunch of BS. I know we need to lynch someone, because that's the only way we get that information, but I find it laughable that you people think you're good enough at this silly game to actually have a good chance of figuring out who scum is based on JUST their words or lack thereof. IF you're that good, why aren't they just as good at tricking you? You're fools if you think a successful lynch on scum D1 is all that much more than blind luck, barring a massive slip on the part of the scum.

So. That's why I fence sit on anything. I know my alignment. The only person who's opinion I actually trust on anything is ChriVi, because I know ChriVi is town. For the rest of you...I'd rather watch you all converse, because you're doing more than enough of it for me to analyze in the future, then attempt to dictate the direction these events go.

Yeah....no. Choosing to fencesit means you are making the choice to not take responsibility for your reads, and I'm not into that. It's great that you are upfront about it and own it, it's not great that you are doing it.

[Cerberus v666]

I already explained what I am trying to do, I am probing everyone that hasn't yet expressed an opinion to see if we can do better than lynching potential investigative lynchbait Jackel98.

Statements without questions aren't probes. That last post...that wasn't a probe. This game abounds with lynchbait, it's everywhere. Lynchbait and sheep. Did anybody else notice how quickly those votes piled on Jackel once more than one person was voting for him? It reeks of desperation and ignorance, pure town flailing.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. Anti-town?

You are fence sitting on every major point, even on your Drixx read (where you are an expert and thus where there is more value to your opinion compared to someone else) you stayed neutral for the longest period and ended up stating it's not enough of a scumread to make you want to lynch him, your scumreads are players it's impossible to lynch (also quite insulting, you think I claim investigative as scum to get jackel98 lynched and don't even manage to get the job done to boot, Was für ein Scherz) and now you're not even trying to work towards a lynch by expressing your preferences via vote when there is little time left, how would you classify your play?

I noted the same issue Kuribo told T-bone about, but it's more contradictory than just Marquis as your other scumread is me apparently (the other claimed investigative), since you know that nonsense is not going to fly you propose Boon as a third name, but you're not even sure about that... like what is this.

This is me refusing to be stupid enough to form lynch strength opinions on people without a single point of hard data about them. D1 is nonsense. Everything anyone talks about on D1 is nonsense. AT THE MOMENT. Going forward, when we see who gets NK'd, what flips reveal, what cop results show, what claims prove true, I can look at this ocean of information in addition to having mod confirmed knowledge. Then this information becomes valuable, and I can form an opinion of worth using it. Seeing who's pressuring who, and who's scumhunting actively, and who's lurking, etc, means NOTHING because good scum and good town can do all those things, to a purpose. Without any confirmed information about ANYTHING, it's all just a bunch of BS. I know we need to lynch someone, because that's the only way we get that information, but I find it laughable that you people think you're good enough at this silly game to actually have a good chance of figuring out who scum is based on JUST their words or lack thereof. IF you're that good, why aren't they just as good at tricking you? You're fools if you think a successful lynch on scum D1 is all that much more than blind luck, barring a massive slip on the part of the scum.

So. That's why I fence sit on anything. I know my alignment. The only person who's opinion I actually trust on anything is ChriVi, because I know ChriVi is town. For the rest of you...I'd rather watch you all converse, because you're doing more than enough of it for me to analyze in the future, then attempt to dictate the direction these events go.

Yeah....no. Choosing to fencesit means you are making the choice to not take responsibility for your reads, and I'm not into that. It's great that you are upfront about it and own it, it's not great that you are doing it.

Can we move this in a direction that's productive? Either lynch me because you don't like the way I choose to play D1 because I lack the arrogance of the rest of you, or don't. Something productive please.

[copper223]

The statements without questions came in after you told me you are not voting anyone and to suck it up and followed up with the worst scumreads I have seen in a game to date, I hoped a shock terapy might cure you of your paralysis but instead you are batting down the hatches, so this conversation has no value as far as trying to figure out what to do before the deadline goes.

Of course town is flailing, the major wagons for today have been cut short by claims that can't be easily ignored so now some of us are milling about trying to find a good solution to end D1, nice of you to criticize while you watch from the sidelines.

[Cerberus v666]

Note, the statements about arrogance etc aren't meant to be personal attacks, just statements about how incredibly difficult it is to actually find scum D1, and an admission on my part that I really doubt I can do so, and that I find it extremely unlikely any of you can either.

[Drixx]

Ok Drixx, help me out here if you are town, we have a wagon on Jackel98 that is a high risk proposition if we are wrong because we end up lynching an investigative and given Jackel98's previous play it's not impossible for him to be town here, we have the start of a wagon on absent BRantz from my strongest scumread this game Vyse which I find distasteful on multiple levels, and when I try to move the rest of town to organize a CW I get mostly complete inertia, this is a problem.

I agree with you. I've noticed it as well. The problem is that this is multi-ball with at least 2 anti-town groups and I suspect at least one or two neutrals. There is therefore a non-trivial number of people who have to try and gain town cred in all this mess. I was going to ask you to make a succinct case against BRantz and Vyse, but I think I'll ISO them and read without any other thoughts influencing me.

[copper223]

I have ~ a 33% hit rate on scum D1, that is statistically significant, even if it wasn't the only way to improve is to try.

[Cerberus v666]

The statements without questions came in after you told me you are not voting anyone and to suck it up and followed up with the worst scumreads I have seen in a game to date, I hoped a shock terapy might cure you of your paralysis but instead you are batting down the hatches,

so this conversation has no value as far as trying to figure out what to do before the deadline goes.

Of course town is flailing, the major wagons for today have been cut short by claims that can't be easily ignored so now some of us are milling about trying to find a good solution to end D1, nice of you to criticize while you watch from the sidelines.

I'm glad you realize that. I criticize because why do you expect me to know any better than you do? I'm as ignorant as you are, and the town seems to be following your lead to a certain extent. Find someone else you think is scummy.

As an aside, I don't feel like 48h until deadline is a short time frame at all, but that's because I'm used to games with 48h day phases. So, yeah...I don't see any reason why we can't sort this out and reach a consensus in that time frame.

[Cerberus v666]

I have ~ a 33% hit rate on scum D1, that is statistically significant, even if it wasn't the only way to improve is to try.

Scum should compose close to that % of the game! 20%-25%? You hit 33% of the time. That is far from significant. You hit scum slightly more often than a lynch on the first person in the sign up list would.

[God of Power Outlets]

Scum are found on Day 1 all the time. Scum are found in games without power role help all the time. There's no reason to have the attitude of "i can't be helpful to the town" (unless you are scum then feel free).

Ok Drixx, help me out here if you are town, we have a wagon on Jackel98 that is a high risk proposition if we are wrong because we end up lynching an investigative and given Jackel98's previous play it's not impossible for him to be town here, we have the start of a wagon on absent BRantz from my strongest scumread this game Vyse which I find distasteful on multiple levels, and when I try to move the rest of town to organize a CW I get mostly complete inertia, this is a problem.

I agree with you. I've noticed it as well. The problem is that this is multi-ball with at least 2 anti-town groups and I suspect at least one or two neutrals. There is therefore a non-trivial number of people who have to try and gain town cred in all this mess. I was going to ask you to make a succinct case against BRantz and Vyse, but I think I'll ISO them and read without any other thoughts influencing me.

Actually no, the existence of multi-ball means that scum can legitimately scumhunt, since they want to lynch the other scumteam, and avoid the lynch of their own.

To kinda bring the last page of discussion full circle, the Cerb thing I pointed out was in response to a discussion Kuribo and I had in which he said his lack of a push of Jackel for being a claimed investigative role and then a push on Marquis (despite the same issue) looked like an aborted bus. Cerb being unwilling to stick to any of his reads pings as odd. While the upfrontness over it is frankly unexpected it still pings as an odd thing to do. If there was just one scumteam, I'd lynch this with extreme fire.

[Cerberus v666]

Scum are found on Day 1 all the time. Scum are found in games without power role help all the time. There's no reason to have the attitude of "i can't be helpful to the town" (unless you are scum then feel free).

Ok Drixx, help me out here if you are town, we have a wagon on Jackel98 that is a high risk proposition if we are wrong because we end up lynching an investigative and given Jackel98's previous play it's not impossible for him to be town here, we have the start of a wagon on absent BRantz from my strongest scumread this game Vyse which I find distasteful on multiple levels, and when I try to move the rest of town to organize a CW I get mostly complete inertia, this is a problem.

I agree with you. I've noticed it as well. The problem is that this is multi-ball with at least 2 anti-town groups and I suspect at least one or two neutrals. There is therefore a non-trivial number of people who have to try and gain town cred in all this mess. I was going to ask you to make a succinct case against BRantz and Vyse, but I think I'll ISO them and read without any other thoughts influencing me.

Actually no, the existence of multi-ball means that scum can legitimately scumhunt, since they want to lynch the other scumteam, and avoid the lynch of their own.

To kinda bring the last page of discussion full circle, the Cerb thing I pointed out was in response to a discussion Kuribo and I had in which he said his lack of a push of Jackel for being a claimed investigative role and then a push on Marquis (despite the same issue) looked like an aborted bus. Cerb being unwilling to stick to any of his reads pings as odd. While the upfrontness over it is frankly unexpected it still pings as an odd thing to do. If there was just one scumteam, I'd lynch this with extreme fire.

A push? Really? Me saying that both copper and marquis are driving the town discussion, and that makes me suspicious of them, is a PUSH? Wow.

[God of Power Outlets]

Not too long ago you were calling them scum for driving the discussion. Yes, you are playing like you have no scumreads, so I'm gonna take what I can get from you. If you wanna jump down the rabbit hole with me, we can do this, I'm fucking nuts.

[copper223]

I never said I found you scummy, I don't find you anything because you haven't allowed a read on you so you were a good candidate to probe for something I had missed or for some idea on who to focus, the same goes with narninian which you will notice I tried questioning before you, but his point about the Jackel wagon VCA is something I also thought about; the only point I noted about you today was the cross setup confirmation which might be useful later when it can be checked.

Scum should compose close to that % of the game! 20%-25%? You hit 33% of the time. That is far from significant. You hit scum slightly more often than a lynch on the first person in the sign up list would.

what is it today with statistics, you just gave the definition of statistically significant, you described a random process to lynch someone and concluded you would get around 22.5%, 33% is 11.5% above which is a bit much to explain away just by variance, so it's significant, anyone that claims to have a rate much higher is talking crap or should be immediately stalked in every game to learn how to play town, in fact I think my rate might just be a bit high because the sample pool is still small.

It's clear I will not find inspiration from this conversation, I'll take part of your implied advice and re-read tomorrow.

[Marquis]

if anyone is bussing me it's going to be me

busy tonight, catch up later

[LucianRoy]

Can opposition on a subject occur regardless of intention/ win-condition/ alignment?