We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[VysePresident]

@Wguerts - I just want to know, was Bro supportive of this claim to any degree, at any point?

Thanks!

Also, I still really want people to tell me why BRantz is supposed to be Town now.

[VysePresident]

A permanent every night commuter who cannot ever be successfully targeted by any night actions and will gain additional abilities as the game progresses?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commuter

No, I don't buy the claim at face value. It doesn't necessarily mean scum, but of all the claims so far, it's the best possible scum fake claim I've seen, BBmolla's coming in a close 2nd since (as predicted) we're going to wait to use it and that was probably easily predictable to anyone paying attention. It would be a gambit on BB's part to fakeclaim that, but all it takes is a couple nights to happen in a role madness game like this and then a little "confusion" in triggering it and all of a sudden it's too late.

I think this has more to do with my skepticism of accepting claims at face value than anything else though.

Agreeing with you on the convenience. For those who may have played with the components of this hydra before...are either of them the sort to make a claim that wastes their power as town?

I'm familiar with Bro claiming Tree Stump in a similar manner.

[LucianRoy]

Are mutual town reads scummy? For other players than yourselves, of course.

The only reason I bring this up is because Drixx and Cerberus appear to have a mutual townread between eachother. It could actually be genuine, but who's to say?

[Drixx]

There's a difference between friends being friendly and reads Lucian. I haven't given a town read on Cerberus. He hasn't contributed enough to warrant such a read.

You need to learn to discern between friends behaving like friends and things which are actually indicative of reads and alignment.

[VysePresident]

Eh, it depends on the reasons. Townies aren't always at each other's throats. Not sure I'm even seeing that from them, but I've only skimmed the thread.

Regardless, I'm okay enough with Drixx & Cerberus at this point

Anyway, I'm curious - why the Townread on Copper?

[Titus]

A permanent every night commuter who cannot ever be successfully targeted by any night actions and will gain additional abilities as the game progresses?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commuter

No, I don't buy the claim at face value. It doesn't necessarily mean scum, but of all the claims so far, it's the best possible scum fake claim I've seen, BBmolla's coming in a close 2nd since (as predicted) we're going to wait to use it and that was probably easily predictable to anyone paying attention. It would be a gambit on BB's part to fakeclaim that, but all it takes is a couple nights to happen in a role madness game like this and then a little "confusion" in triggering it and all of a sudden it's too late.

I think this has more to do with my skepticism of accepting claims at face value than anything else though.

Agreeing with you on the convenience. For those who may have played with the components of this hydra before...are either of them the sort to make a claim that wastes their power as town?

I'm familiar with Bro claiming Tree Stump in a similar manner.

TreeStumps are not immune to all night actions and cannot vote.

[Titus]

Spoiler: All the Deadline Votes in One Place in Order to Structure VCAs later

Vote Count 1.16

BBmolla (3)

- ChriVi, Ozgin, ActionDan

Drixx (2)

- Toon Fighter, Boonskiies

VysePresident (2)

- deathfisaro, copper223

Jackel98 (1)

- Bulbasaur Commonwealth

ActionDan (1)

- PeregrineV

Toon Fighter (1)

- BBmolla

deathfisaro (1)

- Pirate Ika

Titus (0)

- Titus

Not Voting (13)

: Lihin, Cerberus v666, Three-Pronged Trouser God, VysePresident, Marquis, Om of the Nom, Oranje Crush, LucianRoy, Narninian, Jackel98, vonflare, Drixx, Magua

With 24 votes in play, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-03-17 11:57:34).

Vote Count 1.17

Jackel98 (13)

- Bulbasaur Commonwealth, BBmolla, Ozgin, Magua, Lihin, copper223, Om of the Nom, Drixx, Marquis, LucianRoy, Oranje Crush, VysePresident, Cerberus v666

PeregrineV (6)

- ActionDan, vonflare, Jackel98, Pirate Ika, deathfisaro, Narninian

Drixx (2)

- Toon Fighter, Boonskiies

BBmolla (1)

- ChriVi

ActionDan (1)

- PeregrineV

Titus (0)

- Titus

Not Voting (1)

: Three-Pronged Trouser God

With 24 votes in play, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-03-17 11:57:34).

Mod - According to your rulesheet, does a non-majority lynch at deadline lead to a no-lynch? (Aka if the majority wagon is at 9 at DL, will that be a lynch or a no-lynch?)

Yes, you need 13 votes or there will be a no-lynch.

Vote Count 1.16

BBmolla (3)

- ChriVi, Ozgin, ActionDan

Drixx (2)

- Toon Fighter, Boonskiies

VysePresident (2)

- deathfisaro, copper223

Jackel98 (1)

- Bulbasaur Commonwealth

ActionDan (1)

- PeregrineV

vonflare (1)

- BRantz

Toon Fighter (1)

- BBmolla

deathfisaro (1)

- Pirate Ika

Titus (0)

- Titus

Not Voting (13)

: Lihin, Cerberus v666, Three-Pronged Trouser God, VysePresident, Marquis, Om of the Nom, Oranje Crush, LucianRoy, Narninian, Jackel98, vonflare, Drixx, Magua

With 24 votes in play, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-03-17 11:57:34).

i think it's too overpowered to be scum

3-shot is easily confirmable too

also, only

(expired on 2015-03-17 11:57:34)

left

drixx is town, molla idk but he's not the lynch (nor are we using that day 1), so vyse or jackel atm

VOTE: jackel

actually why the fuck not

VOTE: pv

nothing useful, best compromise lurker/policy lynch today, let's do it

actually why the fuck not

VOTE: pv

nothing useful, best compromise lurker/policy lynch today, let's do it

I'm down

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PV

I'm perhaps too paranoid, but I can see the 3-shot claim being a gambit to keep us from trying to lynch him again. I suppose time will tell.

So we've got almost no time left. I am not sure we're likely to learn a lot from a PV lynch, but lurksacks being gone is better than not.

VOTE: PV

That was informative, and barring multiple down day vig shots or day role blocks, feels pretty damn imbalanced for scum(though I suppose if hes the only scum, maybe he can't use that powet because he's effectively dead and thus his team loses?). Regardless of the parenthetical, feels like a town role to me.

Vote: PV

Because theres no chance of anyone else getting lynched at the rate votes happen, and lurkers work for PL.

Not enough time to do anything else...
VOTE: PeregrineV

We were always set out for doom anyway.

Im reluctant to lynch a lurker, and ive only read this page, but I hear no-lynch is bad, so

VOTE: perigreneV

sorry

Picking up prod, sorry.

@drixx #1687 - Your attack on TPTG gave off the impression of countering with a scum push on someone who was pretty much conftown and it came off as suspicious, misgauged your intent there. Explanation makes more sense to me now.

Agree that 3-shot of brantz ability would seem unlikely for scum. We could force him to use it again at the tail end of another dayphase with the lynch already agreed upon to prove that he has multiple shots.

Priority now is getting a lynch in time.
VOTE: PeregrineV

To make sure the scum don't pull a fast one by tying anything at the last minute:

VOTE: BBmolla

VOTE: PerV

Brantz's role is, in fact, too crazy stupidly powerful for scum to be scum.

VOTE: Jackel

I understand Peregrine wagon, especially as utility lynch. However, the more I see of this game, "I'm a tracker" just seems wrong. Of everyone who has claimed, the only other roles that hew as closely to standard are the masons.

OMG

can we jut end the day with a lynch already instead of these last minute wagons

VOTE: brantz

OMG

can we jut end the day with a lynch already instead of these last minute wagons

VOTE: brantz

Brantz made himself ineligible to be voted.

VOTE: Drixx
At least this is a lynch with little downside and my gut read may well be wrong because Drixx willing to lynch a random guy is not sitting well with me, that is clearly suboptimal and you know it.

VOTE: Jackel

UNVOTE:

ARE WE ACTIVATING MY ABILITY TODAY OR NOT

BB using his ability does not townfirm him.

Scum killing BBMolla means cops live and get investigations off.

Scum might try to shoot plenty of others that have claimed. Lucian for instance. The longer the game the more info he has to vig ftom. With so many claims, predictions are hard. I want to learn.

Fair enough, I hadn't considered that. VOTE: PV

Molla dying N1 instead of one of the masons should be colored in the greenest green you can find.

Also didn't consider that.

Thanks, hindsight!

If my math's right, BB and Jackel are tied. Mod's rulesheet indicates that a simple majority should decide the lynch, so I think there doesn't need to be any more PV votes (though it wouldn't hurt to push it all the way to be sure).

There should be one more vote on Jackel, at least, to make sure that he should be 2nd-most and priority.

-Ivy still

The way I read it is if 13 is not reached there is no lynch.

Do you all really think the best lynch is a complete blank?

VOTE: PeregrineV

Considering quitting.

Whatever, I'll pitch in...

VOTE: PeregrineV

Like no-way-to-get-claim-or-what-if-claim-obvtowns-him-oh-shit-what-then dumb.]

While I think the likelihood of the latter happening (him claiming obvtown and us being unable to stop it) at this point is slim (I doubt PV is even going to post before the end of D1), I must concede to the former point of no way to get a claim/useful information out of it.

Although I'd rather VOTE: Drixx than Jackal, I think there's more information to be reaped from a Drixx lynch than a Jackal lynch, but that's just me.

VOTE: PV
PV lynch is now feeling pretty unappealing to me. Utility lynch that leaves us with hardly any more information, especially if BBmolla nightskip is utilized. Only moving back if nothing else is going to be pushed through.
VOTE: Drixx
Agree with copper's reasoning. This is probably the best feasible option remaining.

whoops, last post should have said
UNVOTE: PV
VOTE: Drixx

Double vote, whoah.
I town-read copper.
Lead us to victory or destruction.
VOTE: Drixx

UNVOTE: Jackel (again)
VOTE: Drixx

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jackel

VOTE: Drixx

Copper is a smart player. He's betting that nobody will believe he's dumb enough to drive a wagon on me without any real reason. Don't let him off the hook folks.

My flip will read "Town Argyrophilic". I am unsure whether the ability will be explained. The ability is called "Silver Lining" and that should make everything I've said during this day phase make more sense, for anyone paying even a remote amount of attention.

You'll want to look at ActionDan's "example" questioning of me and decide what you think of that. It should now be obvious why I reacted the way I did.

See you all in the dead thread.

We have no clue what role the lurksack in question has if he happens to be town, which is sometimg town Drixx should point out and you were the first to say your lynch may benefit town, with your little martyr spiel, now I am scum for suggesting the same thing in the position we are in? Time to die.

Lurksack is still gonna be a lurksack and need to be lynched later. Scum ain't gonna do it (presuming he's town). You pushing to lynch one of the most active players is just silly. You're also taking my earlier suggestion out of context. In the situation where Lucian was planning to use his dayvig shot and we were going to use the night skip, it seemed like seeing my flip would be super helpful. Those things are no longer the case. Lucian is saving his shot and we're apparently not skipping the night, ergo my flip isn't nearly as big a deal as it would have been under those circumstances.

@all - Copper doesn't need to manipulate and make horrible fallacious and irrational arguments when he's town. When Copper starts looking like a n00b in his first game, that's a huge tell.

With a claim from Drixx, I'm willing to bat back to PV, because we can now get the info from Drixx (Well, we did), AND the policy lynch on a lurker.

VOTE: PV

VOTE: The Mod

Noting this for VCA.

I'm halfway to believing that copper is part of the scumteam Drixx is NK-immune to, and wants him gone to remove the BP threat, likely believing that the opposite team/SKs aren't going to shoot Drixx for him.

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, OZGIN, NOT PV! Go jackel! Go vonflare! Go copper! Hell, DRIXX is better than PV! (don't seriously vote Drixx, tho, just saying that's a better spot for a vote than PV)

-Ivy

P-EDIT: Because everyone's being swayed by copper's desperation, apparently.

I'm really not confident in any wagon here, but I'm going to trust your better judgement.

I still want to lynch vonflaire, but I think a kill is more likely to happen if I:

VOTE: Jackel

But I still think it's too late to turn that PV wagon around.

I'll vote Drixx. I think Drixx is town and I'll still do this.

I'll vote Jackel, because again, compared to all other claims made to date, Jackel's falls super flat on flavor.

UNVOTE: Drixx
VOTE: Jackel

I'm not going to fucking vote someone who had no wagon interest until 12 hrs until deadline. That's the stupidest idea I've heard in awhile. Brantz goes and obvtowns himself by role. BBmolla can obvtown himself by role. Marquis can maybe kinda obvtown himself by role. Lucian can obvtown himself by role. Lynching someone without a claim is a terrible thing to do.

BBmolla being all "shoot copper" with his sig being all "Hammer without a claim is a policy lynch. No exceptions." is ironically unamusing.

We just really need a lynch today.
VOTE: Pv

I've now got a strong gut feeling that Drixx is town because his name claim lines with my own role.
Jackel is a good target.
UNVOTE: Drixx
VOTE: Jackel

VOTE: PV
PV lynch is now feeling pretty unappealing to me. Utility lynch that leaves us with hardly any more information, especially if BBmolla nightskip is utilized. Only moving back if nothing else is going to be pushed through.
VOTE: Drixx
Agree with copper's reasoning. This is probably the best feasible option remaining.

I become increasingly convinced this slot is scum

11 hours left we can do this
VOTE: Lihin

VOTE: Jackel98

fine
VOTE: Jackel

*he pulls out a sword and points it towards a player*

VOTE: Narninian

"THIS IS WHAT WE BE MAKING WALK THE PLANK TODAY JOIN ME MATEYS"

VOTE: perv

Uh I had some serious heartburn and acid regulators not really working so I'm in so much pain to play the game at the moment. Going to the hospital in a few hours.
But at least trying to give some, if minimum, contribution to the game.

If we're lynching Jackel, might as well trigger Molla because if Jackel's a tracker we're 1 investigator shorter.
If we're lynching PV, I don't know if it's good or bad to trigger it N1.

I jumped off Jackel wagon because of reasons already stated, being close to the deadline isn't a good reason to reverse my reasons.

VOTE: PeregrineV

What's the rational choice of lynch here? Most all of us apparently have very odd names for our roles, and thus that is weak evidence that Jackel may have been lying; however, he also could have just simplified his role down to what it does. After all, when I claimed, I claimed what my role did ... not the name of it or the name of the ability it gave me.

So the question is whether weak evidence is enough to risk getting rid of a tracker ... and it is further compounded by not at all knowing what PV's role might be or really anything at all about PV other than he's been a lurksack in this game and made an apology post to mods and gave the reasoning. I think he's been put on the replacement list for this game, so he can't come and claim and the slot is currently empty.

So do we want to lynch a claimed tracker or an unknown awaiting replacement?

(I didn't realize how long it had been since PV posted when I said that we should lynch him because he'd continue to just lurk going forward ... that doesn't really hold any water with the realization that he is well past the force replace time).

unvote

VOTE: Jackel

VOTE: Jackel

Dan I'm still not discussing this today.

Jackel is probably better than Pv, even though I feel like both would be probable mislynchs.
VOTE: Jackel

VOTE: Jackal
PV looks like a scum compromise, don't touch it.
WHO SHOULD I VOTE?

VOTE: PeregrineV

because I don't want to lynch a claimed investigator day freaking 1.

Oh yeah.

VOTE: Jackel

L-1, and all that.

hmm. ugh.

Vote: Jackel

If this has not already happened,

unvote, vote: Jackel

Spoiler: The Claims

1. Narninian
2. pirate ika (pirate mollie & ika) - Davy Jones's Locker
3. Toon Fighter-mason with TPTG
4. Oranje Crush (BROseidon & wgeurts) - Amnesiac commuter (bullshit)
5. Ozgin
6. ActionDan-Faction Specific BP
7. Three Pronged Trouser God (Untrod Tripod & kuribo & T-Bone) - Mason with Toon Fighter
8. Bulbasaur Commonwealth (Bulbazak & mastin2 & Voidedmafia)
9. ChriVi (Chrimi & Viomi)-Neighbor with Cerberus, who claims ChriVi is confirmed town
10. Jackel98- Town Tracker
11. Boonskiies
12. Drixx-Faction Specifci BP
13. PeregrineV
14. vonflare
15. Cerberus v666-Neighbor with ChriVI
16. BRantz - 3 shot lynch fucker
17. Never-melt-ice Marquis- Neighbor Day Cop
18. LucianRoy -Vig/Venge
19. Soren Magua
20. VysePresident
21. deathfisaro
22. Om of the Nom
23.

Reubus Swagrid

- Treestump with vote revival
24. Dani Lihin
25. BBmolla - Second Most Votes Night Skipper
26. copper223 - Facebooker

I know the masons are missing from up there.

[BBmolla]

25. BBmolla - Second Most Votes Night Skipper

+Miller

[Oranje Crush]

Yeah, I'll claim the abilities when I get them. Bro isn't here, don't know what he thinks of the claim.
I can choose to commute each night, it's not permanent. I had to send in a pm saying that I'm going to commute. Also did you read the wiki-page, commuter is usually pro-town yet you're all labeling it as a scum role while I'm not lying. I'm a legit comuter, I'm guessing when I get my abilities I'll have to choose between commute and whatever the fuck I get.
So titus, how is it bullshit?
Because it fucking isn't, fuck you all.

[Oranje Crush]

Also there are totaly fucking scum joining on the "OC has BS claim". They're alreay seting up to mislynch me, it's funny how I've gone from very hogh town-reads to very-high-scum in a second. Without much questioning.
Titus if you're town you're blind, BB's pronably sxum.

[Titus]

Don't bother convincing me. I ain't untreestumping until I got a kickass VCA.

[Titus]

Anything I say is just an observation. If I can't vote, I cannot tunnel.

[BBmolla]

Titus if you're town you're blind, BB's pronably sxum.

wut

[VysePresident]

Observations on BRantz, please? (At least, I think you were one talking about him not being scum due to his role...?)

[Titus]

Observations on BRantz, please? (At least, I think you were one talking about him not being scum due to his role...?)

I want to compare his wagon to the Jackal wagon. I would look for overlap for players that are less likely aligned with either.

Setting that aside, Brantz having 3 shot governor is more likely town. Checking him would not be terrible though.

[VysePresident]

Observations on BRantz, please? (At least, I think you were one talking about him not being scum due to his role...?)

I want to compare his wagon to the Jackal wagon. I would look for overlap for players that are less likely aligned with either.

Setting that aside, Brantz having 3 shot governor is more likely town. Checking him would not be terrible though.

Run me through the logic here, please.

[Marquis]

if the role is more than 1-shot it's far more likely to be a town role than scum role because scum has nightkills from each member to get rid of town while town has to rely on a single vig if there is one

it's one of those roles that's overpowered as scum but bait nightkills easily as town

[VysePresident]

All it does is delay things, though. That doesn't seem unbeatable.

[VysePresident]

Like, I'm sorry if I'm just being obtuse, but this really doesn't make much sense to me.

[Marquis]

town's core source of power in mafia is the lynch. a role that can avoid being lynched for three days while simultaneously being able to dismantle their wagon close to deadline takes way too much agency out of town's hands to consider it a viable scum role. the claim is town, and it's likely that the claim is real for its can't-make-this-shit-up oddity and how it's easily disproved if a fakeclaim.

[Marquis]

All it does is delay things, though. That doesn't seem unbeatable.

three days would be a hell of a lot of time if you actually had to deal with scum basically taunting you then being practically undefeatable if you tried to get close. trust me and titus on this since we actually agree- if the role operates the way brantz claimed it, there would be riots if it were scum, especially taking into account its exponentially increased power lategame.

[VysePresident]

...I still kinda think it could be scum, as long as BRantz isn't allowed to do the kill, (preventing an unwinnable LyLo). That said, I'll back off for now, but can we at least agree to get him to prove having more than one shot tomorrow?

[wgeurts]

Marquis, it is a Bastard setup. Just saying.

[Marquis]

oh my god it was YOU who said that

[Marquis]

jfc do you know how annoying it is to keep on having to fight off misinformation, someone says bastard and the whole fucking barn explodes