We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[deathfisaro]

@Lihin

oh man the ability to force players to post more and possibly give them a conditional hated modifier, what an incredibly reasonable scum role

So you think forcing lurking players to post more is pro-town (or anti-scum).
Then why didn't you use it on PereV D1 to either force him to post more which helps town, or get him replaced fast which leads to the replacement posting more than PV ever has which would help town?

Now the easy answer is "oh it's only 1 shot". As town, your best use for that 1 shot was to use it on a random Commonwealth who is likely going to pick up the prod (as stated by yourself), to confirm your power to hopefully dismantle your wagon?
Would other people who receive this role PM think "oh I'm going to use this to save myself because town wincon is simply out-surviving scum and I'll be super useful as VT in a vanillaless game"? Quite the opposite.

And if you actually say it's 1 shot, I'll find you extremely scummy because

i am a town double day foreman. i can select a player and cut their prod/replace deadlines in half (reduced from 72/24 to 36/12) for the rest of the day phase effective immediately. if they get prodded any time during a day i select them, they gain hated modifier for said day. confirmation is coming in the form of the commonwealth being prodded.

This is like the most detailed role claim ever and ZERO mention of how many shots, meaning not shot limited. If it was shot limited, I'm pretty sure someone who is nice enough to do a simple math like 72 / 2 and 24 / 2 for us would have written 2 self explanatory words "one shot" in a claim that covers the entirety of the role.

With 1 shot case covered, moving on to unlimited shot (every day phase or something) case (which I find far more likely given the effectiveness of the power and missing shot limit in the claim)
What incredibly reasonable town benefit did you find in not using that power on PV D1? On anyone, really. As town, your mindset is "meh, I'll just not use my power today, other people will probably carry me while I disappear and do my own things"?


I'm very unhappy with Lihin's reaction to his wagon, as much as Jackel's.

[Drixx]

@Drixx
She didn't want to say she unstumped, that doesn't mean she is scum.

That is far from the only explanation available. And if that is the actual explanation for the extra votes, then that makes her a

liar

because she said earlier this day phase that she hadn't done so.

My problem with her recent play is that she's trying to drive a wagon up my ass based upon outright lies on her part. She claimed that she checked the vote counts and that everything added up properly, and that

obviously cannot possibly be true

. When confronted with this, she doubled down and got nasty about it. A simple "my bad, I was mistaken" completely defuses the situation.

There's a reason I asked people to just self vote so we would know who had the extra votes. There are very good and strong reasons to want that info that have absolutely nothing to do with rolefishing, and yet she has to lie and make illogical and obviously false arguments to try and ram a wagon up my ass? And

you

of all people want to defend someone who is non stop lying and using horrible logic?

[Titus]

VOTE: Drixx

I fucking warned you.

I was never a fucking treestump. I knew scum would be pissed at an unkillable player. If you had kept your fucking mouth shut town could have won any and all ties since scum would not shoot someone unfucking killable. Any scum faction would need two scum alive with me to have won. But now, you blew it and I will be in the graveyard soon enough. I also could have "unstumped" at will if BBMolla lied about nightskipping, hence why I wanted him alive. If we did not get an extra day, I would just double vote his ass. Literally, scum could not have won if you had not pushed that shit.

I structured my claim to draw scum suspicion to me. After all, what scum wants to deal with an unkillable townie who actually can fucking vote them at critical junctures? None. Scum come after me at that point.

TPTG opened with a vote on me I largely ignored because he never questioned my being a treestump. So his posts were not an abject failure.

You on the other hand walked into shit. Mounds of shit.

Time for you to fucking die.

[Titus]

My actual claim is Town Bureaucrat. On all odd numbeted days, I cannot vote. On all even numbered days, my vote counts double. I can change this once with a night action.

[Drixx]

@Lihin

oh man the ability to force players to post more and possibly give them a conditional hated modifier, what an incredibly reasonable scum role

So you think forcing lurking players to post more is pro-town (or anti-scum).
Then why didn't you use it on PereV D1 to either force him to post more which helps town, or get him replaced fast which leads to the replacement posting more than PV ever has which would help town?

Now the easy answer is "oh it's only 1 shot". As town, your best use for that 1 shot was to use it on a random Commonwealth who is likely going to pick up the prod (as stated by yourself), to confirm your power to hopefully dismantle your wagon?
Would other people who receive this role PM think "oh I'm going to use this to save myself because town wincon is simply out-surviving scum and I'll be super useful as VT in a vanillaless game"? Quite the opposite.

And if you actually say it's 1 shot, I'll find you extremely scummy because

i am a town double day foreman. i can select a player and cut their prod/replace deadlines in half (reduced from 72/24 to 36/12) for the rest of the day phase effective immediately. if they get prodded any time during a day i select them, they gain hated modifier for said day. confirmation is coming in the form of the commonwealth being prodded.

This is like the most detailed role claim ever and ZERO mention of how many shots, meaning not shot limited. If it was shot limited, I'm pretty sure someone who is nice enough to do a simple math like 72 / 2 and 24 / 2 for us would have written 2 self explanatory words "one shot" in a claim that covers the entirety of the role.

With 1 shot case covered, moving on to unlimited shot (every day phase or something) case (which I find far more likely given the effectiveness of the power and missing shot limit in the claim)
What incredibly reasonable town benefit did you find in not using that power on PV D1? On anyone, really. As town, your mindset is "meh, I'll just not use my power today, other people will probably carry me while I disappear and do my own things"?


I'm very unhappy with Lihin's reaction to his wagon, as much as Jackel's.

Solid points, but have you considered any reasons why, if the claim is true, Lihin may have wanted to hold off on using it? It's generally good to consider what motivations might exist both for a pro-town and an anti-town player. A lot of townies have tunneled in and gotten a lot of other townies killed becuase they simply didn't take the time to consider whether the negative motives that occurred to them were the only possible motives. Food for thought.

[copper223]

@fisaro
Ok that's something I did not consider which makes Lihin scummier.

@Drixx
I was with you on figuring out the vote count issue, but when Titus started to press about it being anti-town I realised she wanted to keep her unstump hidden, all the "lies" she said were for this reason and I can see both the town and the scum motivation for doing so, in general I never backseat how other players are supposed to play their role so if they want to keep it hidden and I think I know what they are I am not going to force it out unless I think they are scum because of what they were implying, from her perspective what you did can rightfully be considered role fishing.

[copper223]

@Titut
Yeah fuck, but that doesn't make Drixx scum, just mule headed.

[Drixx]

VOTE: Drixx

I fucking warned you.

I was never a fucking treestump. I knew scum would be pissed at an unkillable player. If you had kept your fucking mouth shut town could have won any and all ties since scum would not shoot someone unfucking killable. Any scum faction would need two scum alive with me to have won. But now, you blew it and I will be in the graveyard soon enough. I also could have "unstumped" at will if BBMolla lied about nightskipping, hence why I wanted him alive. If we did not get an extra day, I would just double vote his ass. Literally, scum could not have won if you had not pushed that shit.

I structured my claim to draw scum suspicion to me. After all, what scum wants to deal with an unkillable townie who actually can fucking vote them at critical junctures? None. Scum come after me at that point.

TPTG opened with a vote on me I largely ignored because he never questioned my being a treestump. So his posts were not an abject failure.

You on the other hand walked into shit. Mounds of shit.

Time for you to fucking die.

I specifically pointed out the scenario that I was trying to prevent happening. I went out of my way to say that I didn't want anyone to claim. You claiming out of spite is

on you

. It's not my fault you decided to lie and try to get me killed and refused to back down and take the very easy outs that were available to you. Even before you made this post, you could have instead just said "Oh, you're right ... I didn't realize that the vote number and number of players didn't match up." and moved on.

Instead you kept escalating over and over and over again. At each post, I pointed out the outcomes I wanted to avoid, including having people claim. I didn't ask you to claim. You don't get to

lie about people

and then decided to make a

ridiculously stupid

play when you have much better options, and then try to blame your choices on the person you instigated into a 1v1 fight. I didn't start this fight. I didn't ask you to claim. I went out of my way to give plausible reasons why someone might have extra votes and not even know it. I even provided you with a very simple way out of the fight.

Instead, you let your

pride

and your

ego

get the better of you. That's on you. If you are being honest, you just did serious damage to my wincon out of spite because you couldn't bring yourself to swallow your pride and de-escalate.

[Titus]

@Drixx, all my planning for a town victory is out the fucking window. At least I can get your fucking head though.

Oh and that's total bullshit.

Yes, confirm there's funny double voters and I will stop fishing for said double voters. That's a load of horse shit stinkier than 1000000 million diapers in a landfill.

[Drixx]

@fisaro
Ok that's something I did not consider which makes Lihin scummier.

@Drixx
I was with you on figuring out the vote count issue, but when Titus started to press about it being anti-town I realised she wanted to keep her unstump hidden, all the "lies" she said were for this reason and I can see both the town and the scum motivation for doing so, in general I never backseat how other players are supposed to play their role so if they want to keep it hidden and I think I know what they are I am not going to force it out unless I think they are scum because of what they were implying, from her perspective what you did can rightfully be considered role fishing.

I gave her plenty of cover for de-escalating and backing out of the conflict. She's the one who picked a fight with me. She's the one who decided to make an argument based upon lies to try and get a wagon going on me. I gave her plausible reasons and roles that might exist to explain extra votes. I explained exactly why I was concerned about the situation. I even gave her a freaking example of how to back out of the situation.

@Titut
Yeah fuck, but that doesn't make Drixx scum, just mule headed.

No, Copper. I am not going to just go "Yeah, sure, everyone should lynch me based upon Titus' lies". I didn't ask Titus to claim. I didn't force it. She did it out of spite. It's playing against her wincon (if it's truthful). You cannot argue that I didn't give her a bunch of ways to de-escalate and back out of the situation. She kept pushing it, and that's on her.

[Titus]

Anyone not knowing about votes is objectively bastard.

[Drixx]

@Drixx, all my planning for a town victory is out the fucking window. At least I can get your fucking head though.

Oh and that's total bullshit.

Yes, confirm there's funny double voters and I will stop fishing for said double voters. That's a load of horse shit stinkier than 1000000 million diapers in a landfill.

Your "planning" is out the window because you picked a stupid fight and you were too proud to take the outs available to you. You drove this car into the river. Why on earth didn't you just take the easy outs I offered you? A simple post like "You're right, Drixx, I didn't realize that the vote number was more than the active players" combined with something like "I haven't seen roles like that myself before, but that totally makes sense" and the whole situation diffuses.

I can't do more than give you outs to take. You actually have to take them.

[Titus]

@Titut
Yeah fuck, but that doesn't make Drixx scum, just mule headed.

That alone MIGHT not.

Combine that with his "sudden" realization of the double votes immediately after the mods VCs. His obsession for most of the day confirming me as treestump, his refusal to realize that I was telling him I was lying for a reason, his outright falsehoods, such as Pika being a double voter and the matching amger consistent with being in a boned game as long as I am alive. Yes he is scum. I will eat my hat if he is not.

[copper223]

Drixx the same goes for her, she told you, and me so I backed down and made a note that if Titus was not doublevoter at some point she was likely scum, that was an anti-town line of inquiry, and you did not back down either, you can't now say that you are an innocent lamb that did nothing wrong and she just screwed up.

Remember what you said when you decided to full claim yesterday? Did you blame yourself because you had plenty of other outs? No you blamed the rest of us for the pressure we put on you that led to the claim, so you cam't take the opposite stance now.

[Drixx]

Anyone not knowing about votes is objectively bastard.

Bastard games involve hidden mechanics and hidden win conditions. If a town mayor can give someone an extra vote or a scum politician can give someone an extra vote ... there's a solvable reason for those extra votes to exist. That's not bastard, and I've seen them a bunch of times over the years.

What I don't understand is why you picked a fight with me in the first place. You didn't need to do it. You certainly didn't need to keep escalating it. You REALLY didn't need to keep going after I freaking handed you ways out of the fight on a silver platter. And you REALLY REALLY didn't need to make the spite post and then direct a bunch of venom at me because you got worked up and didn't get up and calm down and then come back and take the easy outs.

And for the record, for future reference, I don't rolefish ever. It's not helpful for town to help scum find PRs, and as scum I want to find the PRs I need to kill by observing their posts and via PoE and I don't want anything in the thread that would let anyone know I realized. No matter alignment, there's no real upside to the sort of blatant rolefishing some people do.

[Titus]

@Drixx, all my planning for a town victory is out the fucking window. At least I can get your fucking head though.

Oh and that's total bullshit.

Yes, confirm there's funny double voters and I will stop fishing for said double voters. That's a load of horse shit stinkier than 1000000 million diapers in a landfill.

Your "planning" is out the window because you picked a stupid fight and you were too proud to take the outs available to you. You drove this car into the river. Why on earth didn't you just take the easy outs I offered you? A simple post like "You're right, Drixx, I didn't realize that the vote number was more than the active players" combined with something like "I haven't seen roles like that myself before, but that totally makes sense" and the whole situation diffuses.

I can't do more than give you outs to take. You actually have to take them.

Stop trying to paint yourself as an Angel.

Once you perceived me as lying, nothing less than a claim or a vote would have sufficied.

Second, even if I claimed yes there's a double voter, there's not a chance in hell you would have stopped looking. There was no out.

There was only ignoring you.
Then there was warning you.
Then there was an out to abandon this because it was antitown.

Each time you said no because I "lied" without ever considering why I did.

You were the one with the outs. You failed to take them. Now you will die. You will flip scum.

Lihin will flip next. Lihin will flip scum.

[God of Power Outlets]

I'm not as leery. They said a 33 percent chance to recall on any given night. The longer they don't remember an ability, the less likely it is they ever will. Sure N1 has roughly a 66 percent chance of not remembering. Not recalling on two nights is roughly 44% likely. Night 3 is roughly thirty percent. Not remembering for five nights is about 20% likely. So if Lihin has no ability by Day 5, it should be fake. They should not be alive that long though.

On the other hand, if scum kill an unknown role, they lose all information as to what it could be. So they really want as many claims out in the open as possible.

To properly find the probability of an event happening after a certain number of iterations, you multiply the chance of it not happening, as a fraction, raised to the power of however many iterations you want.

That said, as anyone who has run the probabilities on crafting a desirable Hellfire Amulet in Diablo 3 can tell you, probability is meaningless in a small sample group. The math says that crafting 37 amulets results in around a 97% probability to get the desired affixes ... and yet people craft hundreds and never get anything even remotely usable, let alone the actual affixes they want.

Night one - (2/3)^1 = 66.67% chance it doesn't happen or 33.33% chance it does.
Night two - (2/3)^2 = 44.44% probability it hasn't happen, or 55.56% probability it has by then.
Night three - (2/3)^3 = 29.6% probability it hasn't happened, or 70.4% probability it has by then.
Night four - (2/3)^4 = 19.75% probability it hasn't happened, or 80.25% probability it has by then.
Night five - (2/3)^5 = 13.17% probability it hasn't happened, or 86.83% probability it has by then.

Please note that I used the word chance only for the first night. This is because each time the game mods randomize to see if an ability is granted, it still faces that first night's chance. The rest is probability, and as anyone who has had even a high school level statistics course can tell you,

you cannot apply probability to individual occurrences nor to small sample sizes

.

So you are busying yourself by outright lying about me trying to get a wagon on me, and then you're completely distorting how probability actually works, essentially employing the gambler's fallacy in order to set up a future lynch on someone else.

Why are you resorting to lies and obvious distortions and fallacies to set up people to be lynched? I've given you a tremendous amount of leeway because people who've been around far longer than I seemed to show you some deference, but your ISO is chock full of illogical arguments and stuff that is just objectively wrong and bad. What gives?

i was wrong, this kind of post is way way way way way more boring than setup speculation


my eyes literally glaze over and my dick goes soft when people talk probability


wake me up when it's time for me to get a murder-boner again

-kuribo

[Titus]

Anyone not knowing about votes is objectively bastard.

Bastard games involve hidden mechanics and hidden win conditions. If a town mayor can give someone an extra vote or a scum politician can give someone an extra vote ... there's a solvable reason for those extra votes to exist. That's not bastard, and I've seen them a bunch of times over the years.

What I don't understand is why you picked a fight with me in the first place. You didn't need to do it. You certainly didn't need to keep escalating it. You REALLY didn't need to keep going after I freaking handed you ways out of the fight on a silver platter. And you REALLY REALLY didn't need to make the spite post and then direct a bunch of venom at me because you got worked up and didn't get up and calm down and then come back and take the easy outs.

And for the record, for future reference, I don't rolefish ever. It's not helpful for town to help scum find PRs, and as scum I want to find the PRs I need to kill by observing their posts and via PoE and I don't want anything in the thread that would let anyone know I realized. No matter alignment, there's no real upside to the sort of blatant rolefishing some people do.

This is outright laughable.

In what world is, "Gee Titus did you unstump? Who are the doublevoters? We need to find them," not rolefishing. It's ridiculously rolefishing.

[Drixx]

@Titut
Yeah fuck, but that doesn't make Drixx scum, just mule headed.

That alone MIGHT not.

Combine that with his "sudden" realization of the double votes immediately after the mods VCs. His obsession for most of the day confirming me as treestump, his refusal to realize that I was telling him I was lying for a reason, his outright falsehoods, such as Pika being a double voter and the matching amger consistent with being in a boned game as long as I am alive. Yes he is scum. I will eat my hat if he is not.

Actually, I thought Pika had a double vote because the count went from 25 to 23 and I wasn't accounting for BRantz having left the game. I corrected myself on that count long before you came and started a fight.

I also wasn't the first person to notice the extra votes. Apparently you missed that? I was the first person to realize that there was the potential for a really bad outcome if the extra votes existed because of a third party ability.

And you still haven't explained why you felt the need to pick a fight in the first place, especially a fight based upon an argument that was objectively provable to be a lie. Why on earth would you expect

anyone

to just meekly let you run a wagon up his ass based upon an intentional lie?

[Titus]

Just because you say I picked a fight with you does not make it true.

You rolefished me after I warned you to stop. Repeatedly. I have also said you were scum most of the day.

Also hi kuribo, your murder boner needs to activate on Drixx. Ty.

[Titus]

Oh and to 3132 for anyone caring to notice Drixx says "my wincon". That's another reason he needs to die.

[Titus]

This tunnel will be a Titus tunnel the likes of which have never been seen on mafiascum, sc2mafia, darklordpotter, USMB, Magoc the Gathering forums, or anywhere else I have played mafia.

You cost the town an auto win. Unless you have a hidden IC, I will make it my mission to fucking murder you and have your petal wings drape across the floor.

[Drixx]

Drixx the same goes for her, she told you, and me so I backed down and made a note that if Titus was not doublevoter at some point she was likely scum, that was an anti-town line of inquiry, and you did not back down either, you can't now say that you are an innocent lamb that did nothing wrong and she just screwed up.

Remember what you said when you decided to full claim yesterday? Did you blame yourself because you had plenty of other outs? No you blamed the rest of us for the pressure we put on you that led to the claim, so you cam't take the opposite stance now.

Apples an Oranges. Titus didn't have a bunch of votes on her, whereas I did. Also, she didn't give me any outs, unless you are actually arguing that I should accept a bullshit case based on obvious lies going unchallenged as an out?

[Titus]

Then I will trample all but one. The last will be a feather in my cap. Literally.

[Drixx]

Just because you say I picked a fight with you does not make it true.

You rolefished me after I warned you to stop. Repeatedly. I have also said you were scum most of the day.

Also hi kuribo, your murder boner needs to activate on Drixx. Ty.

Anyone with a few active brain cells can just look at the thread and see that you started the fight. You're the one who came at me and said I was a liar. I only ever responded to your increasing escalation. You still haven't acknowledged that I provided you with ways to get out of the fight and avoid claiming. You were just too stubborn to take them. That's your fault, not mine.

Oh and to 3132 for anyone caring to notice Drixx says "my wincon". That's another reason he needs to die.

I would have said "our" wincon, but your behavior doesn't strike me as for sure town. I wouldn't expect town to intentionally put a case together against someone made of easily verifiable

lies

. I REALLY wouldn't expect town to keep escalating over and over when the other party is giving obvious outs for you to step away from the fight.

This tunnel will be a Titus tunnel the likes of which have never been seen on mafiascum, sc2mafia, darklordpotter, USMB, Magoc the Gathering forums, or anywhere else I have played mafia.

You cost the town an auto win. Unless you have a hidden IC, I will make it my mission to fucking murder you and have your petal wings drape across the floor.

If you want to play like a mentally deficient vindictive crazy person, that's your choice. You made your own choices at every step along the way.

You started by lying, and I responded by pointing out your lie and giving you the post numbers. You could have ended it by going "my bad, I didn't realize". Instead, you escalated the situation. Not willing to be railroaded by obvious lies, I responded and gave you examples of roles that could bestow extra votes on 3rd parties, providing you yet another way out of the situation. What did you do? You escalated again. At every step, you are the one who escalated the situation. If you are incapable of self-control, perhaps this is not a healthy pastime for you?

And if you outing your role when you had other ways to defuse the situation ends up costing the town, it will be

you

who cost us the game. First by refusing to stop with the bullshit and just say what you needed to say to de-escalate the situation and move on, and then by posting your claim when there was no reason to do so, and then finally by pushing a wagon on me because you are apparently incapable of controlling yourself at the moment.