We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[VysePresident]

Okay guys, I'm pretty sure you both are Town, can we please stop now?

Titus, I know I'm not the only one to say this, but take a step back and ask yourself just what motivation does ScumDrixx have for pointing out your 'destump' to the whole thread, when he could just as easily keep it quiet in the night thread? I don't want to be rude, but this is dumb. You gambited, somebody realized something was wrong, and called you out on it. It's annoying. It happens. Now chuck the ego and help find scum.

Drixx, this is typical Titus. If anything, I'm a lot more comfortable now that she's breaking into Tunnel mode, despite being terrible. This is a ticked Titus, not ScumTitus, and not rational Titus. Chuck the Lynch all Liars crap and help find scum, please & thank you.

P-Edit. Stop. Feeding. This. Guys.

[VysePresident]

I miss Wisdom. He's better at banging heads together than I am. :/

[Cerberus v666]

Okay guys, I'm pretty sure you both are Town, can we please stop now?

Titus, I know I'm not the only one to say this, but take a step back and ask yourself just what motivation does ScumDrixx have for pointing out your 'destump' to the whole thread, when he could just as easily keep it quiet in the night thread? I don't want to be rude, but this is dumb. You gambited, somebody realized something was wrong, and called you out on it. It's annoying. It happens.

Now chuck the ego and help find scum.

Drixx, this is typical Titus. If anything, I'm a lot more comfortable now that she's breaking into Tunnel mode, despite being terrible. This is a ticked Titus, not ScumTitus, and not rational Titus.

Chuck the Lynch all Liars crap and help find scum, please & thank you.

P-Edit. Stop. Feeding. This. Guys.

Seconded.

[VysePresident]

Y'know, I was starting to quote posts from Cerberus, but it's reached the point where I basically just agree with everything he's said up to this point.

P-Edit - Mutual, I see.

[VysePresident]

Honestly, the only wagon of the day that's worth a darn is Lihin's. Copper would be ideal. Bulbasaur is probably still acceptable.

Orange is on a watchlist, but I'm darn well not going to lynch them at this point. The claim was silly, to put it nicely, but they're far and away not today's option. Wguerts is looking pretty darn Town to me, and Bro's not half bad either.

There is nothing illogical about lynching a rolefisher who lies about rolefishing, who was largely suspected D1, who claimed bp (which makes him unlikely to be night killed), who started rolefishing me after Lihin (the hated role) had a VC that made them the default lynch, who has pushed bad cases on other slots and just generally has been an all around scummy..

I'm leaning Town on him for precisely these reasons. If anything, I'm more confident in my Town read on him than you. Think back to Elemental Mafia. This isn't the first time you did this. Let's not repeat, please. I don't want to wade through a shouting match in a freaking Large, thank you.

That, and Copper's pushed him frequently.

[LucianRoy]

@Lucian, should I become Double Trouble with my sister and make two siblings in a single slot? Remind me who the masons and neighbors are please.

The masons were a team of TPTG and Toon.
The neighbours were Chrivi and Cerberus.
I think.

[LucianRoy]

@Lucian, should I become Double Trouble with my sister and make two siblings in a single slot? Remind me who the masons and neighbors are please.

@Narnian, Was ika whiteknighting the end wagons or do you think he had a buddy there?

@OC, Except there I called you scum and tunnelled without allowing for explanation. (I will suppose Sabo's the game I claimed friendly neighbor.).

Oh, something weird: Drixx was one of the first people today to ask that Titus re-vote herself to prove her role as voteless once again. I just thought that was kind of strange, considering the whole argument.

[LucianRoy]

I read Drixx as town.
He did the exact same thing in our last game when he tunnelled me for the stupidest reason.
Copper knows what I'm talking about.

[VysePresident]

@Lucian, should I become Double Trouble with my sister and make two siblings in a single slot? Remind me who the masons and neighbors are please.

Oh my gosh. >_<

Y'know what? I'd almost like that, just to see you two scumreading your own slot.

I just don't know how many people would survive the sheer chaos. I read a battle of textwalls for breakfast, and I'm still scared of this.

[VysePresident]

@Lucian, should I become Double Trouble with my sister and make two siblings in a single slot? Remind me who the masons and neighbors are please.

@Narnian, Was ika whiteknighting the end wagons or do you think he had a buddy there?

@OC, Except there I called you scum and tunnelled without allowing for explanation. (I will suppose Sabo's the game I claimed friendly neighbor.).

Oh, something weird: Drixx was one of the first people today to ask that Titus re-vote herself to prove her role as voteless once again. I just thought that was kind of strange, considering the whole argument.

Why is this strange?

Incidentally, I'd appreciate it if you'd start dropping reads.

Can I convince you to vote Copper?

[LucianRoy]

@Lucian, should I become Double Trouble with my sister and make two siblings in a single slot? Remind me who the masons and neighbors are please.

@Narnian, Was ika whiteknighting the end wagons or do you think he had a buddy there?

@OC, Except there I called you scum and tunnelled without allowing for explanation. (I will suppose Sabo's the game I claimed friendly neighbor.).

Oh, something weird: Drixx was one of the first people today to ask that Titus re-vote herself to prove her role as voteless once again. I just thought that was kind of strange, considering the whole argument.

Why is this strange?

Incidentally, I'd appreciate it if you'd start dropping reads.

Can I convince you to vote Copper?

I just thought it was a bit coincidental. If he had sought her vote earlier for that reason alone, we would've figured out she was voteless much earlier.
I dropped a read, just now.
No. He hasn't done anything super scummy yet. You'll know when Copper does something scummy. It'll be well-placed, and leave you doubting yourself.

[VysePresident]

Have you read anything I've posted on him, at all?

[VysePresident]

Like, I get I'm not typically the loudest or most obnoxious player, but I still don't understand why people constantly ignore me. Am I too long-winded?

[LucianRoy]

Have you read anything I've posted on him, at all?

Yes, in fact I just re-read the majority of the posts you directed at him.
Your first scum-read on him seems like a reaction due to his scum-read.
Your read started out with simple: "I find his play opportunistic, and I don't like his drives on lurkers. He's positioning the votes, etc etc."
It wasn't that strong of a read to begin with.
Your response to his 816 all-encompassing readlist was also kind of dodgy. You didn't exactly address all the points copper had laid out for you, and instead retorted by calling him scum.
Looking back I also noticed you shifted your "cool guy' stance on drixx to him being "slightly iffy" in 1524.
you then shift your focus to Brantz after you repeatedly ask me to shoot him.
You go far enough as to make a case for Brantz which kind of fell-though.
You finally make a somewhat long-winded case for copper's case in post 1963. It was decent, but mostly consisted of finding certain playstyle traits as signs of scum, when I actually see them as normal town-copper. You kind of skipped the rebuttal from his case altogether.

Then I stopped reading.

[Drixx]

@Lucian, should I become Double Trouble with my sister and make two siblings in a single slot? Remind me who the masons and neighbors are please.

@Narnian, Was ika whiteknighting the end wagons or do you think he had a buddy there?

@OC, Except there I called you scum and tunnelled without allowing for explanation. (I will suppose Sabo's the game I claimed friendly neighbor.).

Oh, something weird: Drixx was one of the first people today to ask that Titus re-vote herself to prove her role as voteless once again. I just thought that was kind of strange, considering the whole argument.

I didn't actually notice the discrepency in players vs. number of votes available until

someone else

pointed it out. I'm tainted goods at this point, but I'm sure someone else could go back and see who that person was and decide whether it was scummy or not. Once they pointed it out, I checked the vote counts to verify and then I noticed I was confused and then a little while later blah.

I read Drixx as town.
He did the exact same thing in our last game when he tunnelled me for the stupidest reason.
Copper knows what I'm talking about.

Lucian. You were

a freaking doctor

with an IC who

told you exactly how to claim

, and you went to your death without ever claiming. I wasn't even the driver on that wagon, either. Also, that game is over, so you may reference it openly.

[Toon Fighter]

Drixx, stop that. There is nothing good coming out of the Double vote discussion now.

I am actually pretty okay with a Lihin lynch. Considering jumping to that wagon soon. But Oranje is the one I'd prefer to see flip today.

[copper223]

@Drixx
Lucian was referring to your initial case on him D2 I think, the gloating tell business.

[Drixx]

@Drixx
Lucian was referring to your initial case on him D2 I think, the gloating tell business.

Fair enough. I've actually observed the gloating tell happen and be an accurate predictor of scum. A lot. Psychologically speaking, scum often feel like they should appear happy when something bad happens to their team or plans, and that frequently comes out in the form of a post. Obviously it was wrong, but you and I both replaced into that game, and we both read a Wheel of Time length novel from Lucian so ... I don't feel all that guilty about it really.

[copper223]

@Drixx
Nor should you, it was a good guess and I have seen it work too, the important part for this game is that Lucian is making a fair attempt at reading you from his pov (at least according to my pov of his pov...).

[Drixx]

Lucian is gonna be good at this a lot quicker than some people probably expect.

[VysePresident]

@Lucian - I darn well did reply. (Reposted below) Copper then decided to cherry pick quotes to discredit me & push my lynch. Does nothing about that bother you?

-Why bring up BRantz & Drixx? Does either read feel unnatural to you? (Also, my read on Drixx was Null, leaning ever so slightly Town, I think. He's only recently become a relatively comfortable Townread for me. The 'Cool Guy' part was in reference to the story he told about himself, during the fallout after Kuribo got ticked.)

-What parts of his read on me in 816 seem relevant to you? Why is it 'dodgy' of me not to explain every move of mine? I like to think my play speaks for itself. I'll admit, a large part of the reason I don't like to explain myself is laziness, but another part is that I want people to actually think about what I'm saying. I was really hoping that would work. Wall posts suck to write, and apparently nobody is going to listen to me as long as I don't have the amount of time to match Copper's posts. :/

-It's extremely annoying to me to get dismissed as 'reactionary', particularly when it's not even true. Even if I hadn't scumread him first, that wouldn't have invalidated my points.

I think there's a strategy behind his play. I've stated this a ridiculous number of times already, but I don't see much in the way of curiosity. (The post where he deliberately misquoted me is a pretty blatant example, but there's also the issue of his manner of his other scumreads. I've touched on Mastin (Pressuring & doubt is an appropriate response. A hard scumread is not.), Om, and his 'meta' Town reads on the less experienced players who know him. (I feel like the meta amounts to weak & largely irrelevant stuff. It's almost as bad as saying 'He sneezed while playing Town in that one game, and he sneezed now, ergo he's Town.)

He's constantly putting himself on the offensive, regardless of how much sense it makes. (Once again, the deliberate misquote. Why is this not getting more attention? Copper strikes me as a pretty competent, rational player, and I don't see how this could be Town.)

You don't catch good scum with an obvious slip. I have a pretty decent track record at scumhunting, (Almost 50%, I think, despite some terrible recent games. Actually getting a lynch is a different story, but finding the right one isn't quite so hard.) and it's because I've learned to reverse engineer someone's strategy.

When you get down to it, how much substance & thought is there behind Copper's rhetoric & pushes? I don't think it's a lot.

---

{Reposting my reply below, because I want people to actually read it this time. Plus, I'm ticked with Copper for trying to cherry pick me.}

-The alignment of Bulbasaur is almost irrelevant to the read I'm getting on you. (same for Om, or Drixx, or Lucian, or the others I mentioned, to answer that question about some reads I disliked.) Your thought process feels unnatural, and maybe a bit too straightforward. I can go into the whys of that yet again, but the short of it is that Bulbasaur could be Town, or your buddy, or anything, and it wouldn't change anything. I'm scumreading you for how you got to that conclusion.

-(As a sidenote, I realize one can have much better reads on players they know well. I've played several games off-site with some friends, and I can figure out a lot about them from their play that I couldn't do early on. Thing is, even these reads still need sorting out, and I'm uncomfortable with the 'tells' you're relying on.) {Also, looking specifically at the post where you note certain players seem more mislynchable than others, I'm noting that you apply that one very selectively. You pursue mislynch bait pretty easily otherwise. Looking at your early Narnian read, Drixx, and more recently, your Cerberus read. :/ }

Copper's Take

- "I don't want to interact with you because I can't convince you to vote yourself", forgetting that actually figuring out my alignment should be part of the process

What I Actually Said

-I'm not looking for a debate, per se - I'm never going to convince you to vote yourself if I settle on my scumread, but I can get a better insight into your thought process via your responses, and gauge my read more accurately. (And yes, it should be pretty obvious which direction I'm headed, right now.)

{{Also, I find it incredibly ironic that he's hitting me for supposedly not trying to figure out his alignment, even while he's deliberately misquoting me for the sake of people skimming through the thread. (For their Greater Good, no doubt. )}}

-I'm not hitting you for scumhunting. I'm hitting you for what looks like Lynchhunting. Your Townreads feel perfunctory & strategic, and your focus mostly seems to be on feeling out a viable lynch. It's subtle, and I've waffled on this one to a ridiculous amount, but that's what I'm referring to.

-The deal with Om looked like a possible variation on the old White Knight scenario. Given that others were Townreading Om, I'm not giving you too many Townpoints for backing off.

-You use a lot of hyperbole & such in your posts. "It made me chuckle", that sort of thing. That's another warning sign.

-Gutreads are easy to laugh off. They also tend to work out for me. (They're also not illogical, and I hate it when people do that.)

-I don't have a watertight case on you, or else I'd be voting you over BRantz. Thing is, I've caught out a lot of good players based off the same type of pattern & focus analysis that has me eyeballing you. It's not something I'm going to let you laugh off.

-I also feel like you've been scumreading me for my read on you, and offering me subtle 'outs', like in 1870 & such. (What's your thoughts now it's obvious that I'm hardpushing BRantz? Is it legitimate? Is it just me posturing? What's your take?)

-You've been asking me to drop my case on you for ages. I've done it. It's partly to an audience, yes, and for obvious reasons, but I'm giving you a chance to weigh in as well. You seem to view this as a battle rather than a chance to work out why I think the way I do.

[VysePresident]

If Cerberus actually is town, he should not be allowed to play outside Rome. Vyse is the closest thing to conf. scum to me, did any of you actually bother to read that "case"?

- "I "feel" your scumhunting is fake", no evidence given, this is a problem while reading the whole thing as the actual posts he quotes are distorted by his interpretation of how he says he feels about what my possible motive for doing something is, which often can be proven to be objectively false (but hey he still doesn't care, see the Drixx pearl).
- "I don't want to interact with you because I can't convince you to vote yourself", forgetting that actually figuring out my alignment should be part of the process
- "No matter (!) your read on Om and Drixx, I still have a problem with it you", well that's very indicative of your alignment rather than mine.

Are just some of the pearls in there.

VOTE: VysePresident

I am using a phone keyboard, that's why my commas are not always spot on.

I am not dismissing them, he makes them too subjective to actually be debatable, if I tell you I feel what you are doing is not like proper scumhunting, and you give me the impression of making up your reads, but I don't have a problem with one in particular, rather the general aporoach you are taking this game, which gives me bad vibes, plus this is multiball so the fact you are scumhunting is not town indicative, it depends on how I perceive it wheter it's grnuine or not etc ect ect... what the heck are you going to reply to this? Vyse's case is a concatenation of these sentences, unassailable because it's not based on anything objective to begin with and that's why I think it's scummy,

I did exagerate those points because based on the stuff I am reading zi am convinced multiple pkayers are skimming.

Seriously guys, why are we not lynching this?

Can we please stop talking about 'Anti-Town' play and look for scum?

Catch you guys tomorrow, when I inevitably have to write another wall post.

[VysePresident]

Just going to repost this here, because, regardless of my thoughts on the CommonWealth, they manage to state exactly what I want to, much better than I can under the circumstances.

1)I am using a phone keyboard, that's why my commas are not always spot on.

2)I am not dismissing them, he makes them too subjective to actually be debatable. 3)if I tell you I feel what you are doing is not like proper scumhunting, and you give me the impression of making up your reads, but I don't have a problem with one in particular, rather the general aporoach you are taking this game, which gives me bad vibes, plus this is multiball so the fact you are scumhunting is not town indicative, it depends on how I perceive it wheter it's grnuine or not etc ect ect... what the heck are you going to reply to this? 4)Vyse's case is a concatenation of these sentences, unassailable because it's not based on anything objective to begin with and that's why I think it's scummy, 5)I did exagerate those points because based on the stuff I am reading zi am convinced multiple pkayers are skimming.

1)Fair enough. I guess phoneposting makes it hard to punctuate (I don't have a fancy-shmancy phone, nor do I want one, so idrk)

2)Welcome to almost every damn case made in a mafia game! Now that that bit of idi--sorry, ridiculousness is out of the way, in all seriousness what a way to completely sidestep the points.

a.)He went into fairly extensive detail about why your read progression on me and many others felt unnatural to him. Your point about subjectiveness, while true here, is still an attempt to dismiss or deflect the argument.
b.) your next bullet point completely ignores context, taking only the first half and

completely ignoring

the second half which literally says he's talking with you to get insights on you and help his direction. I mean, that's cherry-picking at it's finest.
c.) having a problem with read progression over reads (or the player giving said reads) is not as smoking-gun-y as you're trying to make it sound. I can be okay with a townread because of it's truthfulness relative to my opinion on said player, but that doesn't mean I have to always agree with

how

you reach it. It's just like with math problems and teachers: You can reach the correct answer, but you don't get full points if you're required to show your work and either don't or flub it.

3) You think I'm just pulling my reads out of my ass/other peoples reads? This kinda feeds into this whole problem of painting what I've done as opportunistic. You're taking posts that are very clearly catch-up posts (and if it wasn't obvious by the "on to page X" comments at the end, I wasn't reading ahead intentionally) and trying to spin them into me somehow taking chances to parrot reads and events that have already happened. Besides, considering that at the time I wasn't keeping tabs on what was happing at the front of the page, you could very easily start crying foul about my posts and I wouldn't really be able to know until I reached them.

4)So? Asking for a majority of objectivity in a case is bogus because it still comes down to how

you

, the player, feel about the player(s) in question. Also, lack of objective things isn't scummy. Sometimes all you can go on are feelings that you get.

5) That's not a fucking excuse! If players are skimming it's their damn fault, and you are NOT helping anyone by deliberately stretching Vyse's argument! If anything, it makes you scummier.

Wait, don't you mean BBmolla?

List one damn good reason why we should it trigger that doesn't involve confirming him or the WIFOM of whether or not he'll die tonight.

You do that, I'll vote BB as soon as I possibly can.

-Ivy.

P-EDIT: Oh, and what Drixx said (whee, more parroting, duncur). This isn't really a matter of what's optimal and what's not, it's a matter of using what time we have to try and get something before we go into the night. whatever "optimal" lynch isn't likely to happen in ~12 hours or less, and the one optimal lynch just excused himself from the game like a scumbag.

(this is obvdirected at Copper, not Drixx)

Lucian: What you think about Jackel is unimportant. What's important is stopping BB's ability from going off.

Do you all really think the best lynch is a complete blank?

VOTE: PeregrineV

Considering quitting.

Again, how the fuck do you expect a Drixx or whatever flashwagon to pop up now? I'd love for a wagon on anyone but PV to show up, but...

And wah, wah, cry us a river. These lynches happen, learn to accept that.

[VysePresident]

VOTE: Copper

In my defense, I'm tired. I'm not an idiot, really. >_<

[copper223]

@Vyse
It's nice to see that everything that has happened today is irrelevant for your read of me and that you are quoting a scumread of yours, namely Bulbasaur, in lieu of your own words, because they apparently express better than you do why you think I am scum.

What other reads do you have Vyse that don't include your arthritic quotes and misreps I had to read at the end of D1 once already?