We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[copper223]

Also fisaro if I were going to frame you I would not start by defending you when Mollie and TPTG wanted your guts D1.

[Oranje Crush]

Maybe Vonflare is town, I know Marquis was adamant about that read so that's why he is at the end of the list, from play alone he looks pretty scummy.

I think he's just bad playing town, lynchbait.
So I agree.

[Magua]

I'm pretty certain vonflare is town, based on his "Did you just claim scum?" reaction to me D1.

[deathfisaro]

wgeurts, when you don't pay attention to the game it really detracts from any credibiility you may have.

Also Brantz is pretty fucking town straight from a role perspective. The role is too powerful for scum.

I disagree.
13 player game scum wincon = let ~7+ town die before ~3 of you get wiped out.
13+13 player multiball game scum wincon = let ~20+ players die before ~3 of you get wiped out.

The easy (very hopeful) scenario is Ozgin keep busting scums to survive the nights and simply checking BRantz once his power runs out. I don't see how staying safe and letting someone else die is a very powerful pro-town power?

pedit;
@Copper
I didn't know they wanted my guts D1. I think it's fine if they did and I died, if Mollie looked suspicious after my townflip I could have been traded 1 for 1, if TPTG looked suspicious I could have been traded for a, with the information so far if truthful, conftown. And the opportunity to inspect the motive behind all the other people on that wagon.

And if you did tell players to hold off and TPTG and Toon all got bonered and hammered it anyway, that tells you how they REALLY perceive you despite saying they like and trust you publicly in the thread.

[Magua]

10:3 is 3 scum lynches to win, or 4 mislynches to lose.

Consider the ability for scum to not be present for 3 of those 4 mislynches.

Hell, a 1-shot scum governor is *super* powerful -- I've won games as scum based only on that, that can only be used once.

[copper223]

I dislike clearing players just based on game mechanics but I think BRantz is more likely to be town as well.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

@Copper: Don't you dare try to brush away my points as if they're trivial, and don't you dare misrepresent them in the manner you have! Here, I'll even put them in an easy to list format:

1.) You say that Vyse has not reconsidered his case on you based on your actions d2, yet you have not told us what you did on d2 that would undermine his case where he has to reconsider it. I've brought this up multiple times, and you have yet to address it.

2.) You say that your initial point on Vyse still holds based on another scum player that you saw playing in that manner (The point being inactive and promising content). However, since the middle of d2, Vyse has posted a lot of content and been a lot more active, yet you have yet to reconsider your read and reasoning. If your reads are truly dynamic, as you claim, why is that?

3.) You say that we jumped on Drixx when he was getting attention, making it opportunistic. However, I pointed out that we were the ones that initially lead the charge on Drixx, and we did so at a point when he did not have any attention on him. Om's push would come much later after the initial push had died down. I pointed this out, yet you've glossed over it.

4.) You say the Lucian push was bad, yet it came at a point where everyone, including us, thought he was really scummy. Heck, Ivy still thinks he's scum. You've never asked why. In fact, you have yet to show how sticking on a vig claim is indicative of scum, when the proper thing to do would have been to jump off after the claim.

5.) You say that you are constantly reevaluating your reads, but your reads on us and Vyse have never changed, and you keep coming up with BS justifications why this is so. Your current justification is due to my push on you, which consists of points such as those above. You have yet to properly address any of these points or show why they're scummy. (Also, don't try to say we're doing the same to you, because I've been giving your points due diligence in responding to them. You have yet to do the same for us.)

6.) One of the main reasons why I think you're scummy is how you flaunt your "correct" town reads in front of everyone after the fact. This does not strike me as town, because town tend to not care for the credit, while scum do.

This is a new one, but it just occurred to me given your most recent dismissals:

7.) You try to paint us as scummy for being on the Jackel and Lihin wagons, but you've never asked us why we were on those specific wagons. If you were really trying to figure things out and evaluate us, I'd imagine that'd be near the top of your list. Heck, Vyse, who you have as scum, at least asked us about our changing read on him before calling us scum for it.

These are pretty basic points and easily addressable, yet you've refused to do so. If you're really trying to figure things out, like you say, then this shouldn't be hard for you, and we can have a proper back and forth. If not, then keep dismissing us and show the rest of the thread who you really are.

-Bulbasaur

[copper223]

@Copper: Don't you dare try to brush away my points as if they're trivial, and don't you dare misrepresent them in the manner you have! Here, I'll even put them in an easy to list format:

1.) You say that Vyse has not reconsidered his case on you based on your actions d2, yet you have not told us what you did on d2 that would undermine his case where he has to reconsider it. I've brought this up multiple times, and you have yet to address it.

Holy fuck, I have addressed this at least 5 times, the point is it is unnatural to keep the case exactly the same as it was at the end of D1 and present it again in the middle of D2. He did not have to reconsider it, if he made a newer case where copper looked even scummier because he defended the pirates plus everything he said before, that would have been more reasonable, to just reiterate the same case you had before when the player in question posted another x (100?) posts in the mean time is unnatural and indicates you are not updating your reads or following the thread, just out of conf bias you are going to find other statements of his that are scummy if you are town and think he is scum that you want to question him for, so it's not my job to tell you why he should reconsider, although only a potato or someone that OMGUS tunnels could possibly think I am scum here as town.

2.) You say that your initial point on Vyse still holds based on another scum player that you saw playing in that manner (The point being inactive and promising content). However, since the middle of d2, Vyse has posted a lot of content and been a lot more active, yet you have yet to reconsider your read and reasoning. If your reads are truly dynamic, as you claim, why is that?

This is false, I already posted I am reconsidering my read of Vyse, I actually asked to hold off the hammer so he could say his piece, again wtf guys, try not to be too obvious about being scum.

3.) You say that we jumped on Drixx when he was getting attention, making it opportunistic. However, I pointed out that we were the ones that initially lead the charge on Drixx, and we did so at a point when he did not have any attention on him. Om's push would come much later after the initial push had died down. I pointed this out, yet you've glossed over it.

This is again false, I posted that Drixx was playing differently from his last game first (which he admitted to and said he is trying out different playstiles, this one is awfull btw) and Om started pressuring Drixx before your vote 155 onwards.

4.) You say the Lucian push was bad, yet it came at a point where everyone, including us, thought he was really scummy. Heck, Ivy still thinks he's scum. You've never asked why. In fact, you have yet to show how sticking on a vig claim is indicative of scum, when the proper thing to do would have been to jump off after the claim.

Lol, it's like you are not reading what I am writing, I already explained that I found your slots's read of Lucian scum after two players had said that BRantz sticking to his scumread of Lucian was more likely to be town for it disingenous, I think Ivy read about it and took the chance to appear town by sticking with that read. My accusation about Lucian is that you did not bother to fact check one of your main scumreads this game when you were given information that might have changed your read, not that you were scumreading him to begin with (what I don't like about that is your history of pushing on easily justifiable reads that constantly either don't flip scum or I don't think are scum).

5.) You say that you are constantly reevaluating your reads, but your reads on us and Vyse have never changed, and you keep coming up with BS justifications why this is so. Your current justification is due to my push on you, which consists of points such as those above. You have yet to properly address any of these points or show why they're scummy. (Also, don't try to say we're doing the same to you, because I've been giving your points due diligence in responding to them. You have yet to do the same for us.)

See above, owned.

6.) One of the main reasons why I think you're scummy is how you flaunt your "correct" town reads in front of everyone after the fact. This does not strike me as town, because town tend to not care for the credit, while scum do.

I do not flaunt, I am trying to get town cred so that people will follow my reads for once and lynch scum.

This is a new one, but it just occurred to me given your most recent dismissals:

7.) You try to paint us as scummy for being on the Jackel and Lihin wagons, but you've never asked us why we were on those specific wagons. If you were really trying to figure things out and evaluate us, I'd imagine that'd be near the top of your list. Heck, Vyse, who you have as scum, at least asked us about our changing read on him before calling us scum for it.

These are pretty basic points and easily addressable, yet you've refused to do so. If you're really trying to figure things out, like you say, then this shouldn't be hard for you, and we can have a proper back and forth. If not, then keep dismissing us and show the rest of the thread who you really are.

-Bulbasaur

You already told me why you were on the Jackel98 wagon with Ivy's post about him being an idiot, which I did not really like at all, if you want to explain your Lihin read please do so.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

The pirates tried to get me off both Bulba and Vyse, but in Vyse's case they had the ulterior motive of getting support for the Toon lynch from an active player, so I think BC is a likelier teamate then VP.

...Huh? Are you saying

we

wanted support against Toon, or

Vyse

? Because after Toon claimed mason we haven't touched the possibility of lynching Toon AFAIR.

I think bulba mentioned that Pika was voting OC before they got the cop guilty.
I haven't double-checked this, but I'm taking his word.

I actually went back to make sure that was correct, so I hope you do.

This is the same reason why I disliked Vyse's case. You have no idea what I am thinking so where do you get the confidence to say this bullshit? I found other reasons to scumread your slot because you ignored a major re-evaluation of your read I was going through just to "sling mud" as it were.

What "major evaluation"? That Pika has nothing to do with your read on us?

Oh, you so funny.

What does your percieved strenght of my case on Vyse have to do with me jumping on him? You accused me of opportunistically jumping on him which is plainly false as I would have lost 10kgs "jumping" on him by now. You are deflecting onto something not relevant for the point I made here.

Because you weren't trying to prove the claims he made false (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT SAID CLAIMS WERE OBJECTIVELY OR SUBJECTIVELY SCUMMY), you were trying to simply discredit the case in its entirety with self-admitted exaggerations under the pretense of "helping those who weren't reading". Reads more like a desperate attempt to derail what might be a damning case against you.

- you started with a scumread on Drixx when he was getting pressured and did not bother to explain it 209, I found that opportunistic to say the least and I believed at the time, as I do now, that Drixx is more likely to be town.

A.) That was an early RVS read by Venus on Drixx, which already makes it pretty much irrelevant.

B.) Even so, both Bulb and I have constantly elaborated on and updated our reads on Drixx, as well as restated our views on him a few times. Yeah, sure, we aren't Venusaur, but essentially claiming that every other mention of a read on Drixx from 2/3rds of the hydra is irrelevant because the other 1/3rd made a scumread and vote in the first 10 pages is laughable at best.

(And yes, the Ivy head's beginning to get a scumread on him because this shit he's pulling is getting ridiculous and I'm half-entertaining the thought that maybe he is trying to stall out the Lihin wagon, and failing that trying to make as much an ass of himself as possible to perhaps avoid being tomorrow's lynch, but so what? Is that opportunistic too?)

The pirates tried to get me off both Bulba and Vyse, but in Vyse's case they had the ulterior motive of getting support for the Toon lynch from an active player, so I think BC is a likelier teamate then VP.

...Huh? Are you saying

we

wanted support against Toon, or

Vyse

? Because after Toon claimed mason we haven't touched the possibility of lynching Toon AFAIR.

I think bulba mentioned that Pika was voting OC before they got the cop guilty.
I haven't double-checked this, but I'm taking his word.

I actually went back to make sure that was correct, so I hope you do.

This is the same reason why I disliked Vyse's case. You have no idea what I am thinking so where do you get the confidence to say this bullshit? I found other reasons to scumread your slot because you ignored a major re-evaluation of your read I was going through just to "sling mud" as it were.

What "major evaluation"? That Pika has nothing to do with your read on us?

Oh, you so funny.

What does your percieved strenght of my case on Vyse have to do with me jumping on him? You accused me of opportunistically jumping on him which is plainly false as I would have lost 10kgs "jumping" on him by now. You are deflecting onto something not relevant for the point I made here.

Because you weren't trying to prove the claims he made false (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT SAID CLAIMS WERE OBJECTIVELY OR SUBJECTIVELY SCUMMY), you were trying to simply discredit the case in its entirety with self-admitted exaggerations under the pretense of "helping those who weren't reading". Reads more like a desperate attempt to derail what might be a damning case against you.

- you started with a scumread on Drixx when he was getting pressured and did not bother to explain it 209, I found that opportunistic to say the least and I believed at the time, as I do now, that Drixx is more likely to be town.

A.) That was an early RVS read by Venus on Drixx, which already makes it pretty much irrelevant.

B.) Even so, both Bulb and I have constantly elaborated on and updated our reads on Drixx, as well as restated our views on him a few times. Yeah, sure, we aren't Venusaur, but essentially claiming that every other mention of a read on Drixx from 2/3rds of the hydra is irrelevant because the other 1/3rd made a scumread and vote in the first 10 pages is laughable at best.

(And yes, the Ivy head's beginning to get a scumread on him because this shit he's pulling is getting ridiculous and I'm half-entertaining the thought that maybe he is trying to stall out the Lihin wagon, and failing that trying to make as much an ass of himself as possible to perhaps avoid being tomorrow's lynch, but so what? Is that opportunistic too?)

- you proceed with a scumread of Lucian 562, once again a player that looked superficially scummy at the time and on whom a wagon was starting but I believed to be town, when I told you so you did not bother to check the information I gave you about him or you have shown no trace of said information filtering into your reads.

When you give someone meta and said person (or persons) explicitly state they don't care for meta, this point becomes irrelevant. I even mentioned that not looking isn't scummy, so this point is doubly defeated!

- I know your scumread of me is a pile of tosh.

-Putting a scumread on us for very weak reasons that have routinely been called crap and not alignment indicative, even by not-flipped-scum.

-Keeping said scumread on us despite very little evidence to sustain it. Maybe there's the whole "ignoring your 'change of read' based on Pika's interactions", but that's about it.

-Intentional and self-admitted discrediting, exaggerating and strawmanning of Vyse's case on you.

-Possible connections between you and Lihin, though this one will have to wait until Lihin flips to see if it's actually worth anything.

That's not tosh, nor is it "subjective reasoning".

2. Other than these three most likely incorrect reads there is nothing much in your ISO that helps town in any way, you of course voted for Jackel98 yesterday and you are happily sitting on the Lihin wagon, another newbie whom I really don't have much of a clue if he is scum or just decided he had no interest in playing on the site anymore.

I will give a pass on the "nothing helps town" part because that is probably too subjective for either of our tastes.

We were already on Jackel when the wagon restarted.

We're "happily sitting" on the wagon because there are multiple things that are scummy about the way Lihin's played the game and is currently playing. You really think the fact that Lihin as all but disappeared, is making no attempts to counter his wagon and hasn't really tried to defend himself ever since his claim is a

town

thing?

Lihin - Town Double Day Foreman - Lynched day two.
Magua - Town Forgetful Watcher - Nuked from orbit day two

...Okay, that just happened.

'Scuse me while I try to re-arrange my thoughts. A lot of what I typed up above may very well be irrelevant in lieu of these flips, but still. And now to finish page 142-current.

-Ivy.

whom according to your latest read of him you are apparently scumreading but never explained exactly why.

This is ohohohohoooo so wrong and two levels.

A.) This read has been explained by both heads.

B.) It's not a damn scumread.

(This is one of those things that isn't irrelevant, btw.)

[copper223]

I am unsure about Narninian, he has at least remained consistent with his approach but leaving all possible interpretations open all the time is something I think favours scum in this game, it leads to town paranoia circles when the best bet is to go for what you think the most likely scenario is and re-evaluate if you are wrong. I would need more game time with him to see if this is how he likes to play or if this is scum keeping their options open. Claiming a redirect on Marquis when he could have been tracked I don't find as townie as some of you do, but sure it generally is more town indicative.

[Cerberus v666]

I view it more from the opposite side. If Cerberus thought Lihin had anyhting useful to say, why would he have been voting the wagon instead of unvoting and waiting for a response?

It seems like something that's trying to act like town.

I didn't really expect lihin to come back and say anything, BUT after reading through the developments of the night, I was actually going to unvote at least until after lihin had to respond or be replaced, since they has just been prodded, but then saw the hammering vote had happened about 3 hours earlier. Not that I can prove that intention, nor is it meaningfulbut it is how things ended up playing out. I found it incredibly unlikely that lihin would sway the wagon away from themselves,but given how recent the prodding was, we should have probably waited until the slot was replaced, since the longest we'd have to wait to hear a response was <24 hours.That's mechanically suboptimal play, but again, It's doubtful it would have changed anything.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

The pirates tried to get me off both Bulba and Vyse, but in Vyse's case they had the ulterior motive of getting support for the Toon lynch from an active player, so I think BC is a likelier teamate then VP.

...Huh? Are you saying

we

wanted support against Toon, or

Vyse

? Because after Toon claimed mason we haven't touched the possibility of lynching Toon AFAIR.

I think bulba mentioned that Pika was voting OC before they got the cop guilty.
I haven't double-checked this, but I'm taking his word.

I actually went back to make sure that was correct, so I hope you do.

This is the same reason why I disliked Vyse's case. You have no idea what I am thinking so where do you get the confidence to say this bullshit? I found other reasons to scumread your slot because you ignored a major re-evaluation of your read I was going through just to "sling mud" as it were.

What "major evaluation"? That Pika has nothing to do with your read on us?

Oh, you so funny.

What does your percieved strenght of my case on Vyse have to do with me jumping on him? You accused me of opportunistically jumping on him which is plainly false as I would have lost 10kgs "jumping" on him by now. You are deflecting onto something not relevant for the point I made here.

Because you weren't trying to prove the claims he made false (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT SAID CLAIMS WERE OBJECTIVELY OR SUBJECTIVELY SCUMMY), you were trying to simply discredit the case in its entirety with self-admitted exaggerations under the pretense of "helping those who weren't reading". Reads more like a desperate attempt to derail what might be a damning case against you.

- you started with a scumread on Drixx when he was getting pressured and did not bother to explain it 209, I found that opportunistic to say the least and I believed at the time, as I do now, that Drixx is more likely to be town.

A.) That was an early RVS read by Venus on Drixx, which already makes it pretty much irrelevant.

B.) Even so, both Bulb and I have constantly elaborated on and updated our reads on Drixx, as well as restated our views on him a few times. Yeah, sure, we aren't Venusaur, but essentially claiming that every other mention of a read on Drixx from 2/3rds of the hydra is irrelevant because the other 1/3rd made a scumread and vote in the first 10 pages is laughable at best.

(And yes, the Ivy head's beginning to get a scumread on him because this shit he's pulling is getting ridiculous and I'm half-entertaining the thought that maybe he is trying to stall out the Lihin wagon, and failing that trying to make as much an ass of himself as possible to perhaps avoid being tomorrow's lynch, but so what? Is that opportunistic too?)

The pirates tried to get me off both Bulba and Vyse, but in Vyse's case they had the ulterior motive of getting support for the Toon lynch from an active player, so I think BC is a likelier teamate then VP.

...Huh? Are you saying

we

wanted support against Toon, or

Vyse

? Because after Toon claimed mason we haven't touched the possibility of lynching Toon AFAIR.

I think bulba mentioned that Pika was voting OC before they got the cop guilty.
I haven't double-checked this, but I'm taking his word.

I actually went back to make sure that was correct, so I hope you do.

This is the same reason why I disliked Vyse's case. You have no idea what I am thinking so where do you get the confidence to say this bullshit? I found other reasons to scumread your slot because you ignored a major re-evaluation of your read I was going through just to "sling mud" as it were.

What "major evaluation"? That Pika has nothing to do with your read on us?

Oh, you so funny.

What does your percieved strenght of my case on Vyse have to do with me jumping on him? You accused me of opportunistically jumping on him which is plainly false as I would have lost 10kgs "jumping" on him by now. You are deflecting onto something not relevant for the point I made here.

Because you weren't trying to prove the claims he made false (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT SAID CLAIMS WERE OBJECTIVELY OR SUBJECTIVELY SCUMMY), you were trying to simply discredit the case in its entirety with self-admitted exaggerations under the pretense of "helping those who weren't reading". Reads more like a desperate attempt to derail what might be a damning case against you.

- you started with a scumread on Drixx when he was getting pressured and did not bother to explain it 209, I found that opportunistic to say the least and I believed at the time, as I do now, that Drixx is more likely to be town.

A.) That was an early RVS read by Venus on Drixx, which already makes it pretty much irrelevant.

B.) Even so, both Bulb and I have constantly elaborated on and updated our reads on Drixx, as well as restated our views on him a few times. Yeah, sure, we aren't Venusaur, but essentially claiming that every other mention of a read on Drixx from 2/3rds of the hydra is irrelevant because the other 1/3rd made a scumread and vote in the first 10 pages is laughable at best.

(And yes, the Ivy head's beginning to get a scumread on him because this shit he's pulling is getting ridiculous and I'm half-entertaining the thought that maybe he is trying to stall out the Lihin wagon, and failing that trying to make as much an ass of himself as possible to perhaps avoid being tomorrow's lynch, but so what? Is that opportunistic too?)

- you proceed with a scumread of Lucian 562, once again a player that looked superficially scummy at the time and on whom a wagon was starting but I believed to be town, when I told you so you did not bother to check the information I gave you about him or you have shown no trace of said information filtering into your reads.

When you give someone meta and said person (or persons) explicitly state they don't care for meta, this point becomes irrelevant. I even mentioned that not looking isn't scummy, so this point is doubly defeated!

- I know your scumread of me is a pile of tosh.

-Putting a scumread on us for very weak reasons that have routinely been called crap and not alignment indicative, even by not-flipped-scum.

-Keeping said scumread on us despite very little evidence to sustain it. Maybe there's the whole "ignoring your 'change of read' based on Pika's interactions", but that's about it.

-Intentional and self-admitted discrediting, exaggerating and strawmanning of Vyse's case on you.

-Possible connections between you and Lihin, though this one will have to wait until Lihin flips to see if it's actually worth anything.

That's not tosh, nor is it "subjective reasoning".

2. Other than these three most likely incorrect reads there is nothing much in your ISO that helps town in any way, you of course voted for Jackel98 yesterday and you are happily sitting on the Lihin wagon, another newbie whom I really don't have much of a clue if he is scum or just decided he had no interest in playing on the site anymore.

I will give a pass on the "nothing helps town" part because that is probably too subjective for either of our tastes.

We were already on Jackel when the wagon restarted.

We're "happily sitting" on the wagon because there are multiple things that are scummy about the way Lihin's played the game and is currently playing. You really think the fact that Lihin as all but disappeared, is making no attempts to counter his wagon and hasn't really tried to defend himself ever since his claim is a

town

thing?

Lihin - Town Double Day Foreman - Lynched day two.
Magua - Town Forgetful Watcher - Nuked from orbit day two

...Okay, that just happened.

'Scuse me while I try to re-arrange my thoughts. A lot of what I typed up above may very well be irrelevant in lieu of these flips, but still.

-Ivy.

whom according to your latest read of him you are apparently scumreading but never explained exactly why.

This is ohohohohoooo so wrong and two levels.

A.) This read has been explained by both heads.

B.) It's not a damn scumread.

(This is one of those things that isn't irrelevant, btw.)

What was magua's role?
Double Day Foreman doesn't sound like the role lihin claimed either.

No, that's exactly what he claimed. So now I'm going to be angry if the "hated" mod was real.

Even Lihin admitted getting people to post more is pro-town, and I added if someone's lurking, getting that slot replaced has the same result. And for some reason the game's driven to prevent such, when it would have seemed unlikely that Lihin would have convinced 14 people to change their minds anyway?

Sure he did. Still doesn't make the way he used his role pro-town at all.

It sucks to be the one-eyed man in the land of the blind and scum is all I can say about this BS.

Lynch Bulbasaur if I am not around, for the love of god.

Poor guy can't handle how trounced he's getting, and has to call on the rest of the town with more sense than him to get the job done.

Bulb might get mad at me for sounding spiteful, but really, now?

@Bulbasaur
Your points are laughable and not worth my time when I have better reads to share, I don't think scum can afford to keep me alive so hopefully you are going down tomorrow either way. I like that of all the giant info dump I just gave your only consideration is trying to make me look scummy, like Titus said, I'll eat a hat if you are not scum.

Again, you're trying to find ways to discredit a case put against you in hopes that it will go away.

I assure you of one thing, though. We won't stop on you until you're dead or confirmed as town.

Real quick since time's running out on my reservation. Cya tomorrow.

-Ivy

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

Holy fuck, I have addressed this at least 5 times, the point is it is unnatural to keep the case exactly the same as it was at the end of D1 and present it again in the middle of D2. He did not have to reconsider it, if he made a newer case where copper looked even scummier because he defended the pirates plus everything he said before, that would have been more reasonable, to just reiterate the same case you had before when the player in question posted another x (100?) posts in the mean time is unnatural and indicates you are not updating your reads or following the thread, just out of conf bias you are going to find other statements of his that are scummy if you are town and think he is scum that you want to question him for, so it's not my job to tell you why he should reconsider, although only a potato or someone that OMGUS tunnels could possibly think I am scum here as town.

My point is that you brought up the fact that things had happened d2 as if there were events that happened to challenge Vyse's points, which there weren't. I get your complaint on a surface level, but if nothing in the case has been challenged, and the case is still as solid d2 as it was d1, then why should Vyse include new points? That's you calling the read stale so that you could call it stale, even though all of the points still had merit. Now if something happened to challenge one or more of those points, and Vyse presented them, then yeah, you have a point and the read is stale. But that didn't happen.

2.) You say that your initial point on Vyse still holds based on another scum player that you saw playing in that manner (The point being inactive and promising content). However, since the middle of d2, Vyse has posted a lot of content and been a lot more active, yet you have yet to reconsider your read and reasoning. If your reads are truly dynamic, as you claim, why is that?

This is false, I already posted I am reconsidering my read of Vyse, I actually asked to hold off the hammer so he could say his piece, again wtf guys, try not to be too obvious about being scum.

My point is false, huh?:

My initial case holds plenty of water as we have a live example of a player that behaved in said manner as scum and admitted it in the tread

3.) You say that we jumped on Drixx when he was getting attention, making it opportunistic. However, I pointed out that we were the ones that initially lead the charge on Drixx, and we did so at a point when he did not have any attention on him. Om's push would come much later after the initial push had died down. I pointed this out, yet you've glossed over it.

This is again false, I posted that Drixx was playing differently from his last game first (which he admitted to and said he is trying out different playstiles, this one is awfull btw) and Om started pressuring Drixx before your vote 155 onwards.

Our first vote on Drixx was #43. Now you can say that was pre-game or that was RVS or that Om was suspecting Drixx before our first official vote, but the fact remains that we were the ones leading the charge on Drixx before Om ever layed down that big wall of a case, and that by the time Mastin had layed down our vote, I had a serious suspicion of Drixx based on pre-game play.

Ivy's already addressed the point about Lucian, and it seems that it's something that you should have known going into this.

6.) One of the main reasons why I think you're scummy is how you flaunt your "correct" town reads in front of everyone after the fact. This does not strike me as town, because town tend to not care for the credit, while scum do.

I do not flaunt, I am trying to get town cred so that people will follow my reads for once and lynch scum.

Riiight...

You already told me why you were on the Jackel98 wagon with Ivy's post about him being an idiot, which I did not really like at all, if you want to explain your Lihin read please do so.

I really don't know Ivy's motivation for the Jackel vote. I just remember everyone being behind and Ivy saying "Hey, deadline is coming and this is what's happening. How do you feel about Jackel?". As for Lihin, I thought her play was anti-town, I thought her claim was anti-town, and I didn't like that she targeted us. Call it biased or personal, but that's how it was.

-Bulbasaur

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

Ivy, stop continuously posting that stuff! It makes your points hard to read.

-Bulbasaur

[copper223]

...Huh? Are you saying

we

wanted support against Toon, or

Vyse

? Because after Toon claimed mason we haven't touched the possibility of lynching Toon AFAIR.

I am saying Mollie wanted support against Toon.

What "major evaluation"? That Pika has nothing to do with your read on us?

Oh, you so funny.

That PIka might have been white knighting you, as already explained something you completely ignored to push scum on me.

Because you weren't trying to prove the claims he made false (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT SAID CLAIMS WERE OBJECTIVELY OR SUBJECTIVELY SCUMMY), you were trying to simply discredit the case in its entirety with self-admitted exaggerations under the pretense of "helping those who weren't reading". Reads more like a desperate attempt to derail what might be a damning case against you.

Go and read that case again please, this just cracked me up. I already said the claims he made were so subjective and based on how he feels I feel that it was impossible to prove anything false (on the flips side it means the case is rubbish as well). What I did with those points was highlight the biggest contradictions in his narrative, like what he thought of my Drixx read.

A.) That was an early RVS read by Venus on Drixx, which already makes it pretty much irrelevant.

B.) Even so, both Bulb and I have constantly elaborated on and updated our reads on Drixx, as well as restated our views on him a few times. Yeah, sure, we aren't Venusaur, but essentially claiming that every other mention of a read on Drixx from 2/3rds of the hydra is irrelevant because the other 1/3rd made a scumread and vote in the first 10 pages is laughable at best.

(And yes, the Ivy head's beginning to get a scumread on him because this shit he's pulling is getting ridiculous and I'm half-entertaining the thought that maybe he is trying to stall out the Lihin wagon, and failing that trying to make as much an ass of himself as possible to perhaps avoid being tomorrow's lynch, but so what? Is that opportunistic too?)

Bulbasaur: "the scummy things I do are irrelevant".

When you give someone meta and said person (or persons) explicitly state they don't care for meta, this point becomes irrelevant. I even mentioned that not looking isn't scummy, so this point is doubly defeated!

You stated you don't care for meta, you did not include your partners as you are doing now to handily avoid having to justify why there was no effort to find out if I was onto something there, to say Mastin disregards meta is complete bullshit by the way, you can easily see she does use it in her game so please, defeated my ass.

We're "happily sitting" on the wagon because there are multiple things that are scummy about the way Lihin's played the game and is currently playing. You really think the fact that Lihin as all but disappeared, is making no attempts to counter his wagon and hasn't really tried to defend himself ever since his claim is a town thing?

I already explained in detail (BEFORE THE LYNCH UNLIKE YOU GUYS) what was giving me pause about the Lihin wagon, go and re-read. What I want to know is why you found him scummy in particular.

This is ohohohohoooo so wrong and two levels.

A.) This read has been explained by both heads.

B.) It's not a damn scumread.

(This is one of those things that isn't irrelevant, btw.)

This is true, in your quest for copper you have changed your read to Vyse town (although the part of your read being well defined is bullshit), for the longest time you had him as scum and were asking for a vig shot on him, neither his scumread nor his town read is well defined in any way, explain your thought process on Vyse without using copper in your read.

Poor guy can't handle how trounced he's getting, and has to call on the rest of the town with more sense than him to get the job done.

Like we both know for you getting a mislynch is a good job, but in general town is supposed to lynch scum, you are forgetting yourself here by patting yourself on the back for getting a mislynch in.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

A.) That was an early RVS read by Venus on Drixx, which already makes it pretty much irrelevant.

B.) Even so, both Bulb and I have constantly elaborated on and updated our reads on Drixx, as well as restated our views on him a few times. Yeah, sure, we aren't Venusaur, but essentially claiming that every other mention of a read on Drixx from 2/3rds of the hydra is irrelevant because the other 1/3rd made a scumread and vote in the first 10 pages is laughable at best.

(And yes, the Ivy head's beginning to get a scumread on him because this shit he's pulling is getting ridiculous and I'm half-entertaining the thought that maybe he is trying to stall out the Lihin wagon, and failing that trying to make as much an ass of himself as possible to perhaps avoid being tomorrow's lynch, but so what? Is that opportunistic too?)

Bulbasaur: "the scummy things I do are irrelevant".

That's not what was said there at all, and you know it. Stop trying to whitewash our points away by summarily dismissing them.

When you give someone meta and said person (or persons) explicitly state they don't care for meta, this point becomes irrelevant. I even mentioned that not looking isn't scummy, so this point is doubly defeated!

You stated you don't care for meta, you did not include your partners as you are doing now to handily avoid having to justify why there was no effort to find out if I was onto something there, to say Mastin disregards meta is complete bullshit by the way, you can easily see she does use it in her game so please, defeated my ass.

I only rely on experiential meta, as I don't have time to read games outside of the ones I'm in. I don't know about the Mastin head, but she's been absent since the start of d1.

This is true, in your quest for copper you have changed your read to Vyse town (although the part of your read being well defined is bullshit), for the longest time you had him as scum and were asking for a vig shot on him, neither his scumread nor his town read is well defined in any way, explain your thought process on Vyse without using copper in your read.

That's not true at all. In fact, we came out with a Vyse townread before a Copper scumread. I even explained the Vyse townread at the beginning of d2, and I did so before explaining why I thought you were scum. Get your facts straight before you try to misrep us.

Poor guy can't handle how trounced he's getting, and has to call on the rest of the town with more sense than him to get the job done.

Like we both know for you getting a mislynch is a good job, but in general town is supposed to lynch scum, you are forgetting yourself here by patting yourself on the back for getting a mislynch in.

Yeah, that's not what this is, and you know it. Is Ivy getting a bit too aggressive? Probably. But her point still stands, as I pointed out a similar thing when I addressed that post: That we were constantly addressing your points and bringing up counterpoints, and that you were running away while dismissing and discrediting us.

-Bulbasaur

[copper223]

My point is that you brought up the fact that things had happened d2 as if there were events that happened to challenge Vyse's points, which there weren't. I get your complaint on a surface level, but if nothing in the case has been challenged, and the case is still as solid d2 as it was d1, then why should Vyse include new points? That's you calling the read stale so that you could call it stale, even though all of the points still had merit. Now if something happened to challenge one or more of those points, and Vyse presented them, then yeah, you have a point and the read is stale. But that didn't happen.

None of the points have merit because they are based on subjective interpretation of how Vyse feels I should feel and how he thinks that I should scumhunt and whether I am able to see the difference between a genuine lurker, which he claims he was, and a real lurker, all things he has no basis to say whether they are true or false.

I have already challenged the case when it was made, if I am alive tomorrow I will take that case, crush it again, then demand your head.

I like the backpedal about the surface level bullshit you had to put in.

My point is false, huh?:

Yup, the fact my initial read had merit doesn't mean I am not reconsidering, no scumread is universal so it's possible that scumread about over-excusing works with many players but not with Vyse. You quoting that means what exactly to me reconsidering? Now this is a more relevant quote:

Let Vyse elaborate on his case because his latest posts make me think this might be 2 different styles that don't mash well clashing more than an SvT.

The rest of your post is based on unverifiables, the facts are I started to focus the attention on Drixx and Om started to build up her case, you plopped a naked vote, which is something that Mastin did in our earlier game as well and one of the first reasons why I started to dislike your slot.

[copper223]

I assure you of one thing, though. We won't stop on you until you're dead or confirmed as town.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

None of the points have merit because they are based on subjective interpretation of how Vyse feels I should feel and how he thinks that I should scumhunt and whether I am able to see the difference between a genuine lurker, which he claims he was, and a real lurker, all things he has no basis to say whether they are true or false.

Okay, I disagree, but I feel we're at an impasse here.

I have already challenged the case when it was made, if I am alive tomorrow I will take that case, crush it again, then demand your head.

You didn't challenge the case. You misrepped and dismissed it. There's a difference.

I like the backpedal about the surface level bullshit you had to put in.

It's not a backpedal. I can see the theoretical point, but I don't buy it from a practical side, as you've done nothing to show why his d1 case isn't as strong today as it was when it was first made.

My point is false, huh?:

Yup, the fact my initial read had merit doesn't mean I am not reconsidering, no scumread is universal so it's possible that scumread about over-excusing works with many players but not with Vyse. You quoting that means what exactly to me reconsidering?

You said that what I was saying was false and that you never said that. I just showed that you did. And no, your initial point does not hold water, especially since Vyse has been playing in a way contrary to your point. I've asked why you never reconsidered you read based on that point. You ignored me. Yes, you say that you're "reconsidering", but at the same time, you refuse to let go of a point that's been proven to be null.

The rest of your post is based on unverifiables

Nope. They're verifiable. You can check back in the thread to see if what I said is true or not, but you don't, because you really don't care, as this is a push for a lynch, instead of one to find scum.

I assure you of one thing, though. We won't stop on you until you're dead or confirmed as town.

Are you saying that you won't be confirmed as town?

-Bulbasaur

[Titus]

@Titus:

Mission accomplished!

My dislike of your comment was more that it was "duh." Saying "There's at least one scum in this 51% of the game" is a non-useful statement. Like, it provides no value.

Good. I hate being too obvious town.

It doesn't provide no value based on how I think. Teams heavy loaded with the people off the wagon suggests that the person is misguided. Plus, tomorrow it suggests we should lynch from the people on the wagon (plus me since I heavily pushed it, in the interests of objectivity).

I start from eliminating the impossible to get to what is possible.

@Drixx, I had other things to do than wallow in self-pity. You're still scum until you actually fucking contribute. You know, with hard positions.

@BC/Copper - I'm reading the war of walls later. Can y'all focus your attention on the wagon? Thanks.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

Titus, I think the wagon is going to be muddy waters, as there were some real reasons why town would want to vote there. Maybe you can look at the votes and reasoning and see what, if anything, seems off, but I think it would be dangerous to say that we can only lynch off that wagon. I guarantee there's scum that avoided that wagon like the plague and are going to be leading that charge.

-Bulbasaur

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

For example, my strongest scum read was off the wagon, was on the fence as a whole, and is now throwing shade at those on the wagon.

-Bulbasaur

[copper223]

You didn't challenge the case. You misrepped and dismissed it. There's a difference.

It's not a backpedal. I can see the theoretical point, but I don't buy it from a practical side, as you've done nothing to show why his d1 case isn't as strong today as it was when it was first made.

I was in the middle of a counterclaim on Jackel after I had to out myself because I believed the way he had given his role, what I called a pedantic tracker, didn't much up at all with the roles in the game that had been coming in and with my own role which is also a tracker but with a completely different flavour, so Vyse's vanity case on me was just an annoyance at the time, I could have dismissed it more accurately, that's true, on the other hand you insisting it was such a strong and damning case is the height of bullshit again as nobody other than you (I suspect for reasons that have very little to do with the actual strenght of the case) picked up on it.

Nope. They're verifiable. You can check back in the thread to see if what I said is true or not, but you don't, because you really don't care, as this is a push for a lynch, instead of one to find scum.

Like do you even notice the BS you write? It is not verifiable because the only interaction in the thread you had with Drixx before you plopped your naked vote is you giving him your reads, which do not include him.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

@Copper: We were talking about multiple points. You limited it down to Drixx. Why was that?

-Bulbasaur

[copper223]

My initial case holds plenty of water as we have a live example of a player that behaved in said manner as scum and admitted it in the tread

3.) You say that we jumped on Drixx when he was getting attention, making it opportunistic. However, I pointed out that we were the ones that initially lead the charge on Drixx, and we did so at a point when he did not have any attention on him. Om's push would come much later after the initial push had died down. I pointed this out, yet you've glossed over it.

This is again false, I posted that Drixx was playing differently from his last game first (which he admitted to and said he is trying out different playstiles, this one is awfull btw) and Om started pressuring Drixx before your vote 155 onwards.

Our first vote on Drixx was #43. Now you can say that was pre-game or that was RVS or that Om was suspecting Drixx before our first official vote, but the fact remains that we were the ones leading the charge on Drixx before Om ever layed down that big wall of a case, and that by the time Mastin had layed down our vote, I had a serious suspicion of Drixx based on pre-game play.

Ivy's already addressed the point about Lucian, and it seems that it's something that you should have known going into this.

6.) One of the main reasons why I think you're scummy is how you flaunt your "correct" town reads in front of everyone after the fact. This does not strike me as town, because town tend to not care for the credit, while scum do.

I do not flaunt, I am trying to get town cred so that people will follow my reads for once and lynch scum.

Riiight...

You already told me why you were on the Jackel98 wagon with Ivy's post about him being an idiot, which I did not really like at all, if you want to explain your Lihin read please do so.

I really don't know Ivy's motivation for the Jackel vote. I just remember everyone being behind and Ivy saying "Hey, deadline is coming and this is what's happening. How do you feel about Jackel?". As for Lihin, I thought her play was anti-town, I thought her claim was anti-town, and I didn't like that she targeted us. Call it biased or personal, but that's how it was.

-Bulbasaur

This is the rest of your post that I claimed was unverifiable.

- Drixx read

- riiiight...

- All the stuff you said about Jackal and Lihin

The only point that could reasonably be found and verified in the thread as you later claim is the one about Drixx, which surprise surprise there is no trace of. I hope you don't expect me to try and verify riiiiight and your Jackel98 and Lihin reads are subjective on how you interpret his claim and his so can't be verified in any way, why do you want to make the distinction?