Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Shadoweh]

I'm pretty sure my playstyle pings anyone who takes the time to read my posts. Luckily I'm invisible to the naked eye when it comes to being noticed. Though I think I'm being less innocuous this game since there isn't a superactive guiding force of light doing all the work.

I don't mean the slot isn't in danger, I mean since he's not immediately on the table Empire will have time to show off his massive Scummie-winning post size and make all the girls go Wow! Speaking of which a massive post.

Empy: I was coaching him on what to do to not be a scumread, if you want to put it that way. The reason for that is even in that post: I don't want to get your slot easily murdered if you're town. I don't think it's scummy to ask someone to stop being scummy. I think if you looked carefully you would also find in my scumgames I don't talk to people I want to mindlessly wagon like they're people who could convince me otherwise. Did you not read that we already agreed not to Bane you today, which might have affected my decision more then oh noes, here comes The Empmeister?

[Espeonage]

I'm not voting anyone.

[DeasVail]

My gut reaction to recent posts is that Espe and Empire are town (Empire's townread on me no longer really bothers me at least), but I don't have the time right now to go over everything as I would like and I think I have the tendency to go Wow! at posts like that as well. I have an exam tomorrow and after that I should have more time! Though Tammy, I would be particularly keen to hear updates from you on your thoughts on Empire as

1. Empire is similar to you in that I think I've only ever seen him as town and probably townread him every time (unless I was scum) and am afraid of going :O big post = town here, and
2. If Empire is town then I'd very much like to realise that because I think his whole team is amazing and would very much like to work with them without the barrier of thinking they're scum beyond base paranoia levels. (And probably another reason why I need someone to tell me if I'm too easily being wooed)

No need to feel any pressure here, and I can't guarantee that I'll agree if you scumread him, but yeah, I think you probably get what I mean.

[Espeonage]

Oh T-Bone has offered to iso Marquis at some point.

[Marquis]

Oh T-Bone has offered to iso Marquis at some point.

This seems excessive!

[Marquis]

The reads list you are about to see is a reflection of my reads

only

, with maybe some stuff from my teammates thrown in here and there. Our skype logs are huge enough as they are (where we also talk about things like how to open a wine bottle without a corkscrew and about how Varys is a merman), I'm not going to trudge through them this late at night to see what they thought but once I get everyone's opinions nice and neat, I'll bring them in. I'm going to try as best I can to put forth both myself and my team's thoughts in a coherent fashion in the future but might come up haphazardly so apologies for the mess.

UPDATE: While I was in the middle of writing this post, Regfan got back from work so we had a bit more time to discuss stuff (although he's phonemessaging) so expect to see more thoughts from him.

TOWN:

cheetory6:

Every time I join a game of mafia and roll town, I look forward to seeing people be as obvtown as this guy has been. His vote on CDB in #13 and the manner in which his stated his reasoning in #84 read genuine. I like that he's not afraid to criticize the more well known players in the room like he did Tammy in #23, especially for something that, as scum, would have been way easier to write off as town. There's also a bunch of great game-solving posts like #304 that shows he is grappling with the game at a level of depth I don't really see coming from someone with his join date. His reaction to Bulbazak in #347 shows an attitude I love, like he's got nothing to hide, and his thoughts on the Tammy/Zar conflict in #367 reads like he really is worried about not being able to read both slots. My only criticism of him is that at times I feel his focus is too narrow but everything else I see strongly outweighs it.

DV:

As I believe Zar already mentioned, I think this fits my (admittedly old) DV-town meta strongly. When he's scum, DV's a lot more stiff, awkward, and generally betrays a level of self consciousness in his posts that shows he is overly concerned about being suspected. His posts here show that he's relaxed, that he doesn't care about his image, and that he's not forcing his reads. Regfan didn't have much to add here other than "he's obvtown, bet the game on it". Sidenote - When I mentioned I thought DV was likely to take a scum token for this game, Regfan told me that when he met DV IRL, he said something about how he's tired of rolling scum.

Marquis:

At first, I thought he fit the bill for cheeky scum with posts like #98. However, his explanation for the self-doubt he has re: his townread on DV in #484 and how he wishes his teammates would help him read the older players in the list in #484 both read sincere (don't know if my assumption is off but I'd think Marquis would have more confidence in his scum game than to rely on his teammates in order to play well). I mean, hell, his whole paranoia-laced approach to this game seems pretty damn sincere to me (ex: #591) and I really like the fact that he went out of his way to go check out the old TM games to follow up on the Tammy meta subversion issue.

vezok:

Normally, I'm inclined to dislike posts like #427 and #468 as I tend to read that as a weaker player trying to buddy/suck up to a stronger player, but I think vezok's tone is very genuine here - I recall him being very self deprecating about his playstyle when he came back onto the site and how he wanted to improve so him looking up to ffery's town play and trying to get the most of her and her teammates' reads makes a lot of sense. One thing I will say, though, is that his general confidence is a bit weird, want to look into his more recent games in order to confirm this read. But at this point, I'm not sure where the scumreads on him are coming from.

Bulbazak:

Only town things I see from him are his inter-team discussion with EddieFenix being genuine (e.g., the portions of his posts where he says Eddie's been yelling at him to bane my slot) and the way he's gone about stating his mastin read. Regfan finds the "our team's strategy is to support" bit in #350 townish as well but I don't really see it personally.

T S O:

I liked his paranoia in #402. Also thought his #403 was a bit too cocksure to come from him as scum (Regfan left a message in the PT where he also agreed with this point). Rest of his posting seems unremarkable to me.

GIF:

Similarly to Bulbazak, I like the way he's going about the whole mastin situation with Titus. Aside from that, I've got nothing alignment-indicative from his slot, though I will say that Regfan mentioned in our PT that he thought #353 and its implication that he ISO'd Shadoweh with the intention of forming a read on her was weakly town.

Shadoweh:

I liked her suspicion on Tammy based on Fantasy Camp in #200 as that's a line of logic and I can easily see her going for and her evolution of that read in #212 based on Tammy's reaction to her post is something that checks out. I also find her inter-team discussion where she brought in LLD's suspicion and Grey's reads townish (especially the call-out to CES). Found the "I'm actually a little nervous about making a spot shared with three scary town players vulnerable this early" in #486 genuine, too. I'm horrible at reading Shadoweh though (think I've misread her in every game we've played together) so take this one with a grain of salt. Regfan actually finds her #486 scummy her bane vote on Zar and the way she talks to Zar reads like she's coaching a scumread on what to do to not be a scumread which, makes no sense from town and that the whole post reads like she's wanting to damage our slot but dodge blame - he also added that her Bulbazak vote seemed like her scrambling to vote someone since she knows I'll obvtown. This one's going to need some more discussion from us.

NULL:

Tammy:

Only here because I am internally conflicted. She'll go to one of the two other piles after I've had some time to think more and probably after I've had a chance to try and work with her here. I'll break down my and my team's process on her in another post.

ActionDan:

Had a weak early townread on him due to his activity level and his interactions with UT but it's died out with his lack of activity later on and the overall lack of scumhunting.

mastin:

Don't bother asking me to ever have a read on her because I don't ever read her posts (sorry) and I'm just going to defer to my teammates on this unless I'm forced to read her myself. For what it's worth, Regfan told me he believes he rarely, if ever, reads mastin wrong and that she's town here through her token mentions, feeling like she's dead walking (whatever this means), and the lack of "4 of these are scum" (he says that mastin spams the thread with BS reads when she's scum

Titus:

See mastin (although I'll probably end up reading some of her posts from time to time). Regfan has a scumread on her, he says her posts and her stance on our scream slimy because she pushing for a bane/lynch on our slot while claiming not to know the meta or the context.

Espeonage:

This is almost exclusively Regfan but he thinks the insistence on claiming reads pretty town and that his posts look like he's being transparent with his reads. However, he does want Espeonage to clarify exactly what arguments he thinks Tammy is wrong for suspecting Zar for and what reasons he thinks my slot is scum for.

Antihero:

N/A

Aronis:

N/A

SCUM:

Gamma:

To sum it up as best I can, Gamma's posts (when they actually come) are too focused on mechanics talk and very little in the way of genuine scumhunting. Even the reads in posts like #614 have surface level reasons and padded with more mechanics talk. Tonally, he comes off as distant and dispassionate, and the overall activity level is poor (something that Regfan told me is in line with his scum meta although I will confirm it for myself later). Overall, dude reads like scum mailing it in.

UT:

Found his over-the-top rage in the early game pretty forced, but what really got me is the almost total lack of anything resembling scumhunting and I find his reaction to ffery basically becoming confirmed town in #113 scummy, for lack of a better phrase, it just reads like butthurt scum. Regfan agrees on this read but we both are approaching it with caution because we have this weird paranoia that we might be wrong about this one.

CDB:

Don't like CDB's opener (#7), CDB's the kind of guy who, from memory, takes the early game very seriously to push for reactions and get reads. The opening reads very passively, especially the deference to the others on how to proceed. I dislike the mention of his team discussion here, feels like he's forcing it through to be like "hey dudes by the way my team and I are totally talking about this game." I also agree with GreyICE calling out CDB saying CES thinks vezok's a hard read (#406), my impression from the few conversations Regfan and I have had about vezok is that he's nowhere near that tough to read. Aside from that, got nothing, his other posts work either way for me. Weakest scumread here.

Bane: Gammagooey

P-edit: See above, Gamma. Also a bunch of posts I'll read when I'm more awake.

This also seems excessive! :/

[Marquis]

And given the speed with which you responded, I assume you only read the section that pertained to you. What do you think about the rest of that post and of my reads?

Lol!

Empire kind of reads here as rubbing the ~effort~ in everyone's face! Scum for the emphasis on it I think!

Bane: Empire

There's also the swap that partially bothers me but then someone's going to bring up WIFOM or whatever if I mention that so let's pretend I never said it!

[Marquis]

Reading more of it now, the Gamma stuff also looks molded which is a pleasant thing to see since it kind of affirms my initial thoughts so yay!

[DeasVail]

Empire kind of reads here as rubbing the ~effort~ in everyone's face! Scum for the emphasis on it I think!

Is there something beyond the high amount of post content that makes you think this? The actual degree of effort doesn't deviate from my expectations of town-Empire.

[Tammy]

I'll save you som trouble and effort, I have absolutely no desire to work with you this game.

[T S O]

Skipping from page 24 to 28 to say the following: ffery, you're town, I'm town, Cabd would like to collaborate with you for the brief time you're here.

[DeasVail]

I'm off for about a day or so now. I might have to do a thorough re-think of my reads when I get back, I'm not sure. In the meantime, each of you remember that you're very cool and making this game lots of fun even if you're the scummy scum scumz!

[T S O]

Hey, you, stop being so likeable.

[DeasVail]

Well if you weren't a pretty cool guy then I wouldn't have been able to say what I said, so it's your fault!

[Tammy]

I already covered the your slot. Mostly deflection and I Tammy's wall felt very similar to the way she went about attacking me in Red Wine which means that she is probably either right or scum with you.

I will not clarify the Tammy pings.

Btw I attacked you in red wine because I felt like the way you attacked me looked like distancing/a bus.

It's pretty amusing to me that you think this looks like a scum game of mine because it demonstrates yu have no idea of how I think as scum.

I'll pretend it's not on the heels of me saying I feel off about you either.

[Tammy]

I'll save you som trouble and effort, I have absolutely no desire to work with you this game.

I meant this to empire.

[fferyllt]

Skipping from page 24 to 28 to say the following: ffery, you're town, I'm town, Cabd would like to collaborate with you for the brief time you're here.

OK. does he have reads to discuss?

[Tammy]

Though I will ask you something empire. You've got confirmed town here, confirmed town of a team you know well, why aren't you trying to work with her/them? You guys have wildly different viewpoints on me, if you've actually forgotten how to read me, they have more recent games with me, have people better at reading me - though nacho I still maintain I would have fooled you in that f2f game! - and have it right with me.

Why aren't you talking to them about me?

Like it baffles my mind and you are never ever ever allowed to make that smug claim that people should hang up their shoes and go home or that DV should hang up the banner again. That is nothing you're allowed to say ever again.

[Tammy]

*something

I'm not a very big fan of my cat this morning!

[Tammy]

Ffery - what did you think of empires reads list/entrance?

[Tammy]

Ok so at the end of page 23, I feel that Tammy is getting a bit agitated where she doesn't need to be. I mainly think her arguments are barking up the wrong tree and the excepts (I have yet to follow up on reading then in context) seem to be more of deflection over anything, which seems weird and Zar appears to be arguing the tree rather than the forest which is usually a sign of scum so I'm leaning towards voting.

As a side note I want to make a quick decision as Boon is something that is in towns favour just because of majority numbers.

I am also tempted to claim my sign? purely because I see no downside for myself to do so.

@Red Wine Talk: That is the most fun game I have even played in and I was one of the first people dead. Anyone looking to learn how to do scum theater needs to read that game. I doubt there will be another example of how to both flail, and clear yourself from that.

Also Marquis <3 mighty FIN3

on to page 24.

I'd like for you to point out where I was agitated on page 23. I wasn't agitated last night, not until empire replaced in. Page 23 was pretty standard explaining my read and interacting with people.

I was agitated after being insulted the night before.

[fferyllt]

I think I need to read it again later. There are reads I disagree with, and some stuff I haven't talked about in the game thread so far that he's echoed some of mine/our thoughts. Also some unspoken reads changes that I've laid down no trajectory on - he's taking the emerging side on some of those changes.

The you-read is utterly mindboggling to me. Nacho and I both are extremely skeptical of the efforts to discredit you, and we expect to see more of the same. And we're totally, totally not liking it, though we don't think it will come exclusively from scum players.

Anyway, it would be really really cool for this to be town-Empire, and I'd feel better about town's chances for an eventual win if it is town-Empire. But I'm not sold.

[Espeonage]

Hey Tammy, you know how you were during like the mid part of Unbalanced 2.

This is me telling you, you need to breathe.

Also btw, your explanation of why you attacked me in Red Wine is equatable to why I think you're attacking here as was picked up by Empire.

Ok got some pedits.

[Tammy]

Why are you trying to calm me down if you think I'm scum? Wouldn't I be faking my agitation in that case?

I have no idea what you mean by "as picked up by empire".

[vezokpiraka]

THIS IS TOWN EMPIRE.