Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Titus]

Diving into this now. Empire, CES says to tell you that if you'd like to suggest an alternative hard-to-read player than lurky vezok, that'd be fine too. As far as my own experience with vezok goes, the only one I remember is a game in which I was scum so didn't have to read him. So I've pretty much accepted CES's description at face value, having no reason not to do so.

Also, the Black Goo are agreed that Baning Empire is a bad idea and that you should all stop. I like all of the other currently voted-for options better.

Lurky Vezok, what? I disagree with his positions but calling him lurky is wrong.

@Tammy/Empire, I want to solve you two and not have any more Tammy v Empire fighting. If you are both town, we cannot afford in fighting. If one or either of you is scum, we need it resolved so the gamestate does not stagnate. If you're down, I would like to do socratic method with you both.

[ChannelDelibird]

Uh, have you spoken to your team about me (#754 implies that you have)? Because I find it very hard to believe that a guy who (probably still) believes I have no scum game suspects me in this game.

I hadn't brought up your slot at all to my team-mates prior to that post. CES told me to address you on that point, so I did. He actually hasn't had much of a stance on your alignment yet, but he's less leery of your swap with Zar than I am. (Like Fenchurch, he's not had a comprehensive read of the game.)

My impression was that the inevitable mechanics discussion was not going to prevent you from doing your own thing and that you were going to treat this like the average game in the beginning despite the Team Mafia aspect.

With the Bane rather than a vote, I don't think there's more that I could have done that would be more like a normal opening for me. I'd typically look at who 'randomly' votes for who and make some early moves based on that, but the change to Baning means that the same principles can't necessarily be applied, hence making the early theory discussion more important.

I don't remember how you tended to act as town in mechanics-heavy games specifically but I'll look some of this up when I'm not feeling like a zombie.

I doubt that you'd get many researchable games for this. I wouldn't normally sign up for a game with as many mechanical deviations as this. I'm here because I'm the member of my team happiest to deal with the number of players involved.

[T S O]

Has Patrick read the game, or are you the only member of the Black Goo caught up right now?

[fferyllt]

Re: ffery's #760 - I can definitely understand the approach to Tammy and that's part of the reason why I'm more than willing to give her space right now (I know I definitely benefited from the shitstorm when I was scum in Marketplace III). If you want to talk about reads, could you tell me pretty much everything Llamarble has on this game? (Nacho, too, I guess, but that depends on where he is with his process).

llamarble hasn't commented much about the game yet. I'll convey your interest in his thoughts.

Nacho has been more in the moment. One of the reasons I've been somewhat slow about semaphoring reads changes is because we're still in discussion on a couple things. I'll probably be posting a big ol reads list update tonight sometime.

[ChannelDelibird]

Lurky Vezok, what? I disagree with his positions but calling him lurky is wrong.

CES's words, not mine, and I think he meant on a more general scale rather than in this game specifically. I don't have enough experience with vezok either way to agree or disagree with such a description.

PEDIT @TSO: Patrick has skimmed some but not all of this game, and not any of the recent pages. His main observation is that Tammy looks town but that her push on Zar is a little overblown. I am the only member of my team who has read the thread in full.

[T S O]

Am I the only one who finds Bulbazak's thought process here bizarre as fuck?

Bulba: "oh I'm mad that I made a post and hito locked the thread"
GIF: "you should have used the Back button"
Bulba: "meh didn't want it anyway"

Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum, if I'd even say such a thing in the first place. Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention. Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly.

But this post doesn't actually address any of my concerns about what is, to my eyes right now, you straight-up lying for no good reason.

"Surely there'd be better ways to do this as scum" - Sure. The point remains you did it. Scum don't play optimally 100% of the time.
"if I'd even say such a thing in the first place" - Well, that's irrelevant, seeing as you -did- say it.
"Such a comment is guaranteed to draw attention." - Yes, correct, but this is

still

pointing out simple logic rather than addressing anything.
"Focusing on such statements as a basis for a scum lean is also just silly" - Why is this? This is the only thing you said that has any relevance to my point.

I still don't understand why you made a post, then didn't post it, then moaned about not being able to even though it was easily retrievable with one click. I'm starting to believe this post never existed, because if it did, then your actions are so incredibly illogical that it's physically not believable for me.

So the only real question I have left to ask after this post is ...why are you lying to us? Because scum in a game like this really, really don't want to admit that they were caught in a lie, and your reaction fits that pretty well.

[Empire]

ffery, Regfan just popped and I'm talking with him right now. He wants me to ask you to explain your strong townread (and Nacho's if he has one) on Titus because he definitely doesn't see it.

Titus, maybe later (although thanks for the law school flashbacks).

[Untrod Tripod]

@Tammy/Empire, I want to solve you two and not have any more Tammy v Empire fighting. If you are both town, we cannot afford in fighting. If one or either of you is scum, we need it resolved so the gamestate does not stagnate. If you're down, I would like to do socratic method with you both.

oh get over yourself

you're not going to figure out their alignments with any real degree of certainty right now

and trying to play peacemaker is just part of the shell game you're trying to set up to have people depend on you

igmeoy

[ChannelDelibird]

@Aronis:

Hi.

[Tammy]

@Tammy/Empire, I want to solve you two and not have any more Tammy v Empire fighting. If you are both town, we cannot afford in fighting. If one or either of you is scum, we need it resolved so the gamestate does not stagnate. If you're down, I would like to do socratic method with you both.

Not sure what exactly you're getting at, and no offense but no. Empire and I will figure each other out in our own manner and time. And there are only a handful of people I trust enough to understand both me and Empire to figure out this in a way that is meaningful and I'd trust. Two of those are his teammates, and one is reading me as scum for some reason. Faraday's not playing. Nacho and ffery are playing, and they'll be who I depend on to balance out my thoughts and suspicions or lack thereof.

~~~

I'm not sure what to think about a couple of people who should be able to read me easily and see me as town apparently are not, while people I thought would suspect me or not have a read on me are not suspecting me. It feels tres weird.

I have a suspicion I'm working on, but I hope to see something tonight that will tip me one way or the other.

[Titus]

@Tammy/Empire, I want to solve you two and not have any more Tammy v Empire fighting. If you are both town, we cannot afford in fighting. If one or either of you is scum, we need it resolved so the gamestate does not stagnate. If you're down, I would like to do socratic method with you both.

oh get over yourself

you're not going to figure out their alignments with any real degree of certainty right now

and trying to play peacemaker is just part of the shell game you're trying to set up to have people depend on you

igmeoy

Wow..you wonder why I do not like you. Yes I am capable of figuring out alugnments. I have my own way of tackling things.This is another example of you saying pointlessly controversial things.

The last thing I want is the game in my hands. I want this set up so that I am not depended on but we reach a resolution.

I don't think anyone is going to depend on me in a) early game or b) a behavioral read without loads of justification and planning based on setup. I don't like games where people depend on me. That is why I hate obvtown games.

What about that post made you think I was making myself seem important?

[hitogoroshi]

VC 25 (Minor Day 1, VC 25)

Bane:

Target player's Sign is revealed.

(5)

Empire

: Bulbazak, Titus, GuyInFreezer, Marquis, Untrod Tripod [L-5]
(4)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail, Gammagooey, Shadoweh, Cheetory6
(3)

Gammagooey:

ActionDan, vezokpiraka, Empire

(Cheetory6)

(2)

vezokpiraka:

T S O, ChannelDelibird
(1)

Titus:

mastin2

(4)

No Bane Vote:

Aronis, Espeonage, TellTaleHeart, Tammy

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to Bane. Deadline is Sunday, April 5th at 9 PM CST.

Minor Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-05 21:00:00)

mastin2 may be V/LA in the near future.

[fferyllt]

ffery, Regfan just popped and I'm talking with him right now. He wants me to ask you to explain your strong townread (ahnd Nacho's if he has one) on Titus because he definitely doesn't see it.

Titus, maybe later (although thanks for the law school flashbacks).

I don't want to talk about Titus in detail right now. I'll definitely talk about her in a few calendar days. I'm townbinning her for now mostly based on her expressions of frustration and how she's adapting and working around stuff that was frustrating. Nacho pointed out post 148 as something he thought was more likely to come from town-Titus than from scum-Titus.

[T S O]

The only scenario where I don't want to Bane Bulbazak is the one where we're lynching him instead.

[Titus]

@CDB, Did you ever answer 129? There's an inherent condtradiction between baning the scummiest player and protecting who we bane. Not sure if you answered that but looking through my ISO to see 148 reminded me of that.

[fferyllt]

Empire can you explain more about why Regfan is scumreading Tammy?

[Titus]

The only scenario where I don't want to Bane Bulbazak is the one where we're lynching him instead.

My team has talked a little about my tunnelling and this looks problematic tunnelly. By shutting down and declaring all plans must assume Bulba is scum, you shut him out. If he's town, that's bad for obvious reasons. If he's scum, he won't post and give relative information.

[ChannelDelibird]

Right. Whoever gets Baned can (and probably should) be protected.

What was your thought process here?

People who have their Sign made public by Baning are obvious targets for investigative abilities, which are only powerful if the scum are narrowing down by killing elsewhere. That was my thought process at the time; I'm reevaluating at the moment.

I answered 129 here, Titus. However, note that I have never said that we should Bane the scummiest player. I think we should Bane somebody whom we are not reading clearly either way.

[Untrod Tripod]

@Tammy/Empire, I want to solve you two and not have any more Tammy v Empire fighting. If you are both town, we cannot afford in fighting. If one or either of you is scum, we need it resolved so the gamestate does not stagnate. If you're down, I would like to do socratic method with you both.

oh get over yourself

you're not going to figure out their alignments with any real degree of certainty right now

and trying to play peacemaker is just part of the shell game you're trying to set up to have people depend on you

igmeoy

Wow..you wonder why I do not like you. Yes I am capable of figuring out alugnments. I have my own way of tackling things.This is another example of you saying pointlessly controversial things.

The last thing I want is the game in my hands. I want this set up so that I am not depended on but we reach a resolution.

I don't think anyone is going to depend on me in a) early game or b) a behavioral read without loads of justification and planning based on setup. I don't like games where people depend on me. That is why I hate obvtown games.

What about that post made you think I was making myself seem important?

by making yourself an integral part of the process to "figuring them out with socratic method" and getting them to "stop fighting" you are trying to set yourself up to seem important. it's also a higher-level scumplay, one of my favorites in fact, to play peacemaker, so it's pinging my scumdar

and yeah, I bet you don't like people who call you out on your nonsense. nothing could be less surprising.

[Shadoweh]

DEAR CHANNELDELIBIRD PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION BETWEEN STATING IM TOTES A SCUMREAD

CeeDeeBee, GreyICE is challenging you on CES saying vezok is hard to read. He says vezok is easycake biscuits to read and wants to know why your team is saying otherwise. I generally agree with this, vezok is pretty straightforward.

Since you're doubling down on this while ignoring you've been asked to explain how it's haard to read vezokcake..

CES's words, not mine, and I think he meant on a more general scale rather than in this game specifically. I don't have enough experience with vezok either way to agree or disagree with such a description.

Oh, Tammy I misunderstood what you were asking at the time. I don't have a problem talking about whether we should Bane/No Bane. To me it's a little different because rather then randomly removing bulletproof maybe, it lets us control who the scum can kill. When someone is de-metalled their living long isn't too questioned. When someone's sign is wide open and they live? Well.. So it's turning the bane into vig-shots, to me. Besides, wagon analysis isn't much fun without wagons.

UT, our team of dignified ladies and gentlemen is asking you politely to tone down the ad-hominem attacks on Titus who is doing the Lords work trying to work together with those two. Totally copy/pasted verbatum I swear.

[T S O]

The only scenario where I don't want to Bane Bulbazak is the one where we're lynching him instead.

My team has talked a little about my tunnelling and this looks problematic tunnelly. By shutting down and declaring all plans must assume Bulba is scum, you shut him out. If he's town, that's bad for obvious reasons. If he's scum, he won't post and give relative information.

If he lies, he lies. It's that simple for me.

[Untrod Tripod]

ad-hominem attacks

tell your team to learn what ad hominem means and then get back to me

[Titus]

@UT, It's also decent townplay to figure out people's alignments.

Also, you have no idea what the socratic method is if you think that I would be learning the most through it. The person asking the questions learns something, but its more designed to flesh out arguments and teach than it is to deduce. I figure out their arguments and why they feel that way, I can solve them. Tammy and Empire gain more of an understanding of each other as the questions that help them frame why they think that way is set up by someone neutral. If you were familiar with the socratic method, it's not a perfect teaching method and usually discouraged by law students but I like it because it shows statements and flaws for what they are.

Anyone skilled in the socratic method could actually do it. I try to do it occasionally but it's usually viewed with suspicion but since Empire knew what it was and its purpose, I figured he might be more inclined to agree to it.

Nothing I've posted is non-sense. You're painting my comments as OMGUS after I've highlighted your pattern of pointless confrontation is noted. Your comments do nothing to actually foster an intelligent dialogue and make me more inclined to ignore you, but I've been told not to ignore anyone unless I convince them you're outright lying so here's your gift a lecture on the purposes and motivations of socratic discourse.

@CDB, If we are not clearly reading someone we bane, protecting them is foolish if we have content surrounding the player. If scum kill them, they give us a lot of information.

[Titus]

The only scenario where I don't want to Bane Bulbazak is the one where we're lynching him instead.

My team has talked a little about my tunnelling and this looks problematic tunnelly. By shutting down and declaring all plans must assume Bulba is scum, you shut him out. If he's town, that's bad for obvious reasons. If he's scum, he won't post and give relative information.

If he lies, he lies. It's that simple for me.

What do you think he lied about?

[Untrod Tripod]

yeah don't talk down to me, Titus