White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Think you're wrong on at least two of these. Your whole scum-read and push on Llama ignores the fact that he a) Has stated reads that involve non-token discussion now and b) Him using token-usage and discussion as reads previously fits him perfectly and makes sense given that it does objectively influence alignment chances.

Work with me, what's your detailed reads on Aeronaut, Elk (Ignoring the wagon since "wow fast wagon = town" is bad reasoning especially given that it wasn't particularly fast and there were counter-wagons that were created with Elk jumping on one of them) and CD.

Yes, he has stated reads that involve non-token discussion. Yet, he is still pushing CD based on token usage, no?

I don't care if it 'fits him perfectly'. I won't be dragged into these stupid fucking meta circles that people like to create.

I don't have a read on Aeronaut, he isn't really doing anything.

Leaning town on Elk because wagon.

CD isn't really doing much alignment indicative either.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Regfan is scum if Llama is scum.

I would suggest thinking of that as the logically equivalent "Llama is town if Regfan is town" because they're both probably town regardless of your silly hang-ups.

[Psyche]

i really can't understand his stubbornness on that "people are letting tokens surpass scumhunting bit"

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, he has stated reads that involve non-token discussion. Yet, he is still pushing CD based on token usage, no?

[Psyche]

but here's what i really can't understand

he pushes for a detailed answer several times to this question:
"Show me the scum-hunting."
"Show me scum-hunting that relates to those reads."
"Show me scum hunting from that post that relates to those reads I just gave."
"You said I was strawmanning. I asked you to show me where the scum-hunting was that lead to those reads. So, show me."
"Show me the scum-hunting that relates to those reads. Stop dodging."
"Now, show me the scum hunting, not token speculation, scum hunting that lends itself to this read on Regfan."

I count 6. But there's no sign in his iso that he really cared about my answer.

He states that he's going to ignore me for the time being because I've frustrated him. But in the same post as that statement, he asks why I've unvoted.

it looked to me like he was just using the specter of frustration to avoid a discussion about his reads
but I'm just babbling incoherent nonsense don't mind me
since i'm an idiot i'll just focus on wagoning with the right smart people

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just so you know, you still haven't shown me the scum-hunting.

You're unvote was bad. I had done nothing that should have changed your read.

[Psyche]

okay i will handle the spoon with more care

i say that the idea that anyone is letting tokens surpass scumhunting is a strawman
you say no

let's just look at regfan

Regfan - He hasn't really done anything yet but 2 town tokens :doubles: his chance of being town.

Regfan has some townpoints for token-reasons, but neither Regfan nor CES has towned very hard yet

Where are Regfan and CES?

if you mean to say that this reads to you as someone who is not really scumhunting because regfan has two tokens,
or someone who is throwing out their reads because "oh hey two tokens",
all opposed to someone who is taking the two tokens into account when they make their reads,
i don't know if i believe you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan - He hasn't really done anything yet

but 2 town tokens :doubles: his chance of being town

.

Regfan has some townpoints for token-reasons

, but neither Regfan nor CES has towned very hard yet

Where are Regfan and CES?

I'm not sure why you have those posts in the wrong chronological order. That's quite misleading.

The last post 'Where are Regfan and CES' is post 28. I don't believe either of them had posted. How is that scum hunting?

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.11

theelkspeaks (4) - Regfan, Aeronaut, Zachrulez, Oversoul
Cheery Dog (3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Llamarble, Psyche
Llamarble (2) - Cheery Dog, Ankamius
Psyche (2) - Antihero, theelkspeaks
Oversoul (1) - BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (1) - ika

With 13 alive, it will take 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, April 13, 2015, at 9:00 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-04-13 21:00:00).

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Llamarble

[Psyche]

what do you think scumhunting is?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Llama (And CES), I'm not reading the copper related section as a town-tell at all and if you really are I want the thought process behind that explained in super-detail because if their team were following the game and had reads (For instance having TTH as town) then it'd have been mentioned prior to the replace out or have mentioned reads elsewhere by this stage, whole thing looks like trying to add something in the scummy-vote switch post and commenting on a replace out fits.

The specific comment just feels like a non-obvious thing to make up. And then elk immediately connected it to the present situation in a natural way. If elk was just making something up to distract from the Psyche-vote (which, admittedly, is problematic), I would've expected a more generic statement.

Liked the explanation behind the scum read on Psyche in Post 81 even though I don't really agree with it's conclusion, also liked the way she interacted and treated both Psyche and Ika following that, read as attempting to get content from the to strengthen / get a read (The "game dynamic" element of the Ika weak scum read was something I didn't really like though which Empire also picked up on). It was a fairly weak read though and am sure I'll be able to read Antihero much more confidently (his reaction towards Zach in Post 232 reads town already) but want to see reads from him.

I'd give TTH some townie points for being observant in post 81 if it wasn't solely about Psyche but it is, so it all feels fairly easy for scum to pull off.

[Oversoul]

Regfan is scum if Llama is scum.

I disagree with that immensely. I think Reg is fairly strong town read, no matter how you slice his play.
I also think Reg is the type of person to spend money on tokens to be town, just like Zach.
Although, I wish the preference picking between town/scum was cut and dry as it was last time. Made for an easier game. Would make me feel better about Zach's activity.
BB&T, I admit that my votes in this game have been fairly weak independently, but that is only because I don't really have a strong grasp on the game yet. This is my first game back in probably 10 or so months? I need to get reacquainted with how *I* would even play this game before I can sufficiently analyze someone else's play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree on the face of it that Regfan's play is pretty town.

That town-read of Llamarble right on cue creeps me out though.

Just because you spend tokens it doesn't mean you get the alignment you want.

[Regfan]

The specific comment

just feels like a non-obvious thing to make up

. And then elk immediately connected it to the present situation in a natural way. If elk was just making something up to distract from the Psyche-vote (which, admittedly, is problematic), I would've expected a more generic statement.

Not sure I agree, the fact that the read (

Which is the only teams mentioned read

) happened AFTER the player had replaced out and at the time of his vote reads faked to me, would also make sense if it was based around a 'different' type of comment inside the teams PT.

I'd give TTH some townie points for being observant in post 81 if it wasn't solely about Psyche but it is, so it all feels fairly easy for scum to pull off.

Fair enough, was a weak town-read but of mine but think I'll get a much stronger read on Anti after I see some reads from him. Just noticed I've got a note from a little birdie that you may have used a scum token in this game, want to weigh in on that at all for me? Also any of your team following this game at all - if so would like to hear a bit of their discussion and thoughts on it - especially if there's anything on any of Oversoul/Psyche/Anak.

Yes, he has stated reads that involve non-token discussion. Yet, he is still pushing CD based on token usage, no?

It's part of the reason, yes. It's not the sole reason. P much where he's at is that he has a bunch of town reads and therefore is hunting via PoE (He doesn't have a strong scum-read and when he does he'll make it apparent) and there's nothing that he finds town of CDs himself so he's content to vote there. I know you're not a fan of meta but you're going to have to learn to accept that Llama taking statistics indicators of alignment such as tokens into account and hunting via PoE is how he plays, there's several of us that have brought this up too so at least trust me for now that Llamas not where you should be spending your time pushing. Also I wanted your read on Elk "bar the wagon speed" which I explained is a shitty reason to town-read him especially given his Psyche vote.

[Regfan]

This is my first game back in probably 10 or so months? I need to get reacquainted with how *I* would even play this game before I can sufficiently analyze someone else's play.

Can semi-relate to this, been a while since I've played in a proper playerlist and still feel like I'm missing things I should be noticing everywhere or be having stronger town-reads that what I currently do (A lot of mine are quite weak). That said would really like to see content, any content from you because a) The fact that other than the linked post of yours you've avoided me has been something that's bothered me especially considering your team mates and the past TM game and I wanted to talk with my team about and b) My memory of you was that you took strong stances and were quite active which isn't the case here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's part of the reason, yes. It's not the sole reason. P much where he's at is that he has a bunch of town reads and therefore is hunting via PoE (He doesn't have a strong scum-read and when he does he'll make it apparent) and there's nothing that he finds town of CDs himself so he's content to vote there. I know you're not a fan of meta but you're going to have to learn to accept that Llama taking statistics indicators of alignment such as tokens into account and hunting via PoE is how he plays, there's several of us that have brought this up too so at least trust me for now that Llamas not where you should be spending your time pushing. Also I wanted your read on Elk "bar the wagon speed" which I explained is a shitty reason to town-read him especially given his Psyche vote.

It's the base of his read. He wouldn't have a scum-read on CD had it not been for the initial token discussion. Also, voting scum via PoE on D1 is disgusting.

It's nothing to do with meta. Set-up spec (token spec) is scummy.

I gave you my read on Elk; I'm not town-reading him as you seem to be implying. His wagon was too quick, it's got people I am scum-reading on it so I want no part of it.

[Regfan]

Disagree that PoE voting D1 is bad, if I've got a lot of town reads and I'm not being stubborn I've been willing to lynch inside my PoE scum pool before, it's just that well I am pretty stubborn also he's not exactly "lynching", he's voting and pressuring, there's a fairly large difference.

If setup or token speculation is scummy how come you don't have a scum read on me, I've done plenty of it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're a big boy, I'm going to see if you can find the difference between your play and Llamarbles.

Go.

[Cheery Dog]

ok so does soemone have a town case for elk or can we like lynch that slot with fire now?

cus im talking with GIF and the others and they see no reason for it to be town

It's not shown to be definite scum yet either.

As far as I am seeing, llama currently wants to treat me as a milker policy lynch, and I don't like it.

It's not a policy lynch to lynch someone for being more likely to be scum than everyone else.

When you are voting the player most likely to be scum, it is not a policy lynch. It is a trying to win the game lynch.

Publicly more likely because of one statement maybe, but but it's still lynching on the policy of what you think could be a scum claim.

"Cheery may have used a scum token"

I'll solve this question for you, I did attempt to use a scum token, still rolled town.

It's very important that Regfan mentioned the possibility of Cheery's scum-token before Cheery did. He didn't just volunteer this; there was discussion of him spending a scum token and he chose this course of action over lying about his tokens. Most scum do have an irrational preference for telling the truth when possible. And then came this:

It was still information that I was going to bring up at the right time, and talking about it was the right time. I considered opening with it, but it didn't feel necessary then.

I know you've cl;aimed a town token spent here, but it doesn't stop you from being able to have drawn scum.

llamarble, again get ffery into this game as well

Why do you need ffery here? Extra voices through one poster isn't going to help me read a slot.

Top scum-reads right now are Oversoul, Zach and Llama.

So you're going to bug someone else for reasons after being asked for reads without reasons about giving reasons, but not give any yourself?

Don't like CDs Llama vote, think he (Or least his team ie. Hoopla) would know full well that Llama pushing lynches via information such as tokens and statistics makes a lot of sense from him and is most certainly not a scum-tell. Planning on talking with Empire about him and Oversoul when he gets up.

That's not why I'm scum-reading though, the push on tokens isn't the problem (except that I don't like being the target as I still consider it basically policy lynching me for having gambited on trying to get scum) It's the whole thing with pushing in the way of this must happen from the get-go. Although thinking (I really must do that more often) now, I probably have reacted badly.

...

No I can't explain why I consider that a scum tell, it's probably just worthless crap about how I think the game should be played.
UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Top scum-reads right now are Oversoul, Zach and Llama.

So you're going to bug someone else for reasons after being asked for reads without reasons about giving reasons, but not give any yourself?

I don't believe it will be particularly difficult to find why I am scum-reading each of those players.

Little homework task for you to do.

Go.

[Psyche]

can i have some homework too prof bbt

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sure.

You know what to do.

[Oversoul]

This is my first game back in probably 10 or so months? I need to get reacquainted with how *I* would even play this game before I can sufficiently analyze someone else's play.

Can semi-relate to this, been a while since I've played in a proper playerlist and still feel like I'm missing things I should be noticing everywhere or be having stronger town-reads that what I currently do (A lot of mine are quite weak). That said would really like to see content, any content from you because a) The fact that other than the linked post of yours you've avoided me has been something that's bothered me especially considering your team mates and the past TM game and I wanted to talk with my team about and b) My memory of you was that you took strong stances and were quite active which isn't the case here.

I mean I don't think I have been avoiding you or inactive really.
I agreed with your points against Elk and that is largely what convinced me to join that wagon in particular. I can't promise anything substantial until this weekend, been swamped with school. But fair enough. Once I have a chance to reread the game this weekend, I should be able to approach the game from a better frame of mind.

What do you mean from my teammates?
We've been mostly doing our own thing, offering our opinions here and there when we can in our PT.

[Equinox]

Bump.