8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[Albert B. Rampage]

And wgeurts. Where do I begin. My team says they have gut scum reads on wgeurts from playing him before. Him saying things like "my english isn't that good" as a defense for miscommunication. I'm not really onto that, what I'm most interested in, is that wgeurts has provided reads on many players, but when it comes time to talk about Sotty, it's "oh I'll read it later", or "yeah I see some points there about Sotty overreacting" and then he goes on and writes a wall to attack MS, or we're talking about Hoopla, and he jumps on the Eddie bandwagon that crops up that Hoopla is also on. It's suspicious, and makes me think you're town, Eddie.

[EddieFenix]

Bulba's theory is that the scum team is made up of 3-4 strong players.

Sotty is a very strong player.

Bulba thinks they are playing a Capcom chaos style game by hard town reading one another

Seraphim goes from a serious, reasoned, determined vote on Sotty to saying she shouldn't be lynched today. He coats it with a nice whipping cream of "I just want to allow her to post more", sure, but absolutely, unequivocally, says she is a bad lynch for TODAY. No matter what else she posts, he states that his decision is made.

Sotty says she doesn't want to lynch Hoopla at all because her first posts -all about setup strategy and no scumhunting at all, mind you- are good and that she "likes Hoopla too much".

Those are hard defenses right there.

What about GI's posts of saying, BEFORE Hoopla even posted, that Hoopla was more likely to spend tokens to roll scum with the token set up (I hate referencing this), and then 180's entirely and starts working with Hoopla and saying their town?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I know. I asked him to explain it and he said this:

G Ice, actually, I'd like you to tell me why Hoopla isn't a great lynch right now. It seems to me that she is.

Mmm, I had some points. But then I thought about it. I will answer your question by Friday.

I am obviously being intentionally cryptic, but I also need to think. And preferably chat with my team here.

Vote: Sotty

It's in the memory bank for later.

[EddieFenix]

Checking out for the day. Classes all day.

[Seraphim]

Seraphim goes from a serious, reasoned, determined vote on Sotty to saying she shouldn't be lynched today. He coats it with a nice whipping cream of "I just want to allow her to post more", sure, but absolutely, unequivocally, says she is a bad lynch for TODAY. No matter what else she posts, he states that his decision is made.

Those are hard defenses right there.

Let's be clear; as if you've noted, unequivocally for me can change rather quickly. As it will now: I don't want to lynch sotty right now but might be convinced later in the day to vote sotty. We will see. Right now, I am incredibly iffy about GreyICE and would rather lynch someone I feel better about (like Hoopla).

FWIW, my peanut gallery also thinks that GreyICE is fishy as hell.

[GreyICE]

Really? Who in your peanut gallary? Mala? Iec? ActionDan? Why?

This is the first information you've shared from your peanut gallary. Do tell.

[Metal Sonic]

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that.

Ooh, this is juicy.

That's one of my trademark phrases, Kagami. I use that all the time, because one of the best scum tells in the whole wide world is when someone starts bitching that you're wagoning them for the "wrong reasons". "Why me, fry me" is one of the strictest rules in Mafia, and the best. And anyone who says otherwise is a shitter or scum.

You were Silverwolf? I am starting to LOVE the people showing up to this party with chainsaws.

You're serious? This makes me sad.

Well then, pay attention and you will learn something. I'll start GreyICE's school of how to fucking play mafia, except mine won't be nice and gentle like ABR's.

One of the cardinal rules of mafia is the cardinal rules of any situation where you have a guilty party. Barring utter psychopaths, guilty people know they are "supposed" to get caught. And there's very little way scum can honestly defend themselves from charges of being scum. Of course they were acting scummy, they were scum.When they start grabbing someone else and yelling "well this person was doing it too!" or "you should be going after them if you think that, not me!",

especially when they couple that with "And X wasn't really scummy at all"

then you can very safely hang them.

If you think this is wrong, you haven't been paying attention.

This theory is true.

Contextualize this in response to Sotty's behavior please.

I am fine with voting Sotty but I just want you to put in some good work.

[Kagami]

You were trying to sell me on Hoopla town right here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6727800

So don't give me that.

If you interpret that as me trying to sell you on hoopla town, you need to read a little more carefully.

[Metal Sonic]

You seem to be selling a binary of Sotty town - hoopla scum. Why?

[Kagami]

I think that's correct, yes, but if that's really what you're getting out my posts, then you're missing something pretty fundamental.

[quadz08]

Votecount 1.5

Sotty7 (3) - Nachomamma8, Albert B. Rampage, GreyICE
EddieFenix (2) - Hoopla, wgeurts
Seraphim (2) - Metal Sonic, Sotty7
Kagami (1) - ZZZX
GreyICE (1) - EddieFenix
wgeurts (1) - Kagami

Not Voting (2) - Seraphim, Zar

Deadline is 4/9 at 6 PM Eastern, which is in (expired on 2015-04-09 18:00:00).

[Kagami]

Ice is voting sotty.

Fixed, thank you.

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: greyICE

[Metal Sonic]

I asked why.

[Kagami]

It would be easier if you just said whatever it is you fail to understand. I've been pretty crystal clear here.

[Metal Sonic]

I don't think you understand the implications here.

[Kagami]

GreyICE is scum.

Grey wants to lynch sotty. GreyICE pulls back when confronted with actual repercussions on a town-flip. That makes sotty 907% town.

Grey wants to townblock with hoopla, like, really wants to. For no reason. Then he's called on it. Now hoopla is maybe, kinda, not town, but definitely not someone he wants to lynch. Hoopla is a buddy.

Reread the game fresh with a greyice-hoopla scum perspective. It's magical how much things make sense.

[ZZZX]

Sorry guys I will check what happened later today had to do some epic paper work for the house and stuff.

p-edit: What do you mean by actual repercussions? town players are usually careful if they are unsure.

[Kagami]

Because I was calling him out on the sotty push. He thought it would be a freebie, but now people will re-evaluate him.

The key is "if they are unsure;" what aspect of greyICE's iso suggests that he's unsure?

[Seraphim]

VOTE: Hoopla

My votes keep getting ignored.

[wgeurts]

VLA 3rd to the 7th

[Seraphim]

Really? Who in your peanut gallary? Mala? Iec? ActionDan? Why?

This is the first information you've shared from your peanut gallary. Do tell.

Mala specifically. AD just thinks it's you being you but doesn't have a strong read one way or another, Iec doesn't have an opinion it seems to me.

[Metal Sonic]

Sonic's post of the day 3

following on from the previous post: if abr or greyice are scum, they can create enough noise and use the scum voting bloc to win the game -- to the point, where i'm effectively willing to gamble on their alignment being town and hope we can channel our energy together as a unit.

If they are that effective as scum, tell me Hoopla, how probable do you think it is that they put in some scum tokens for this game?

Oh god don't TELL them optimal play.

you're underestimating the collective knowledge of the scumteam. four people in this team and then a crew of teammates with eyes on the game. scum already know how to play optimally.

Correct. Every player's power level in Team Mafia can be scaled up to a maximum of a factor of 4, because 4 teammates. In essence, 16 scum vs 32 town. Assume optimal play from... teams with optimal players.

Let's focus on TODAY. We're not going to try and plan for something like this when there's plenty of time to discuss everything. Even then, there's no way in hell I'd follow along with this plan. No chance in hell.

Word it up. Hoopla's vengeful plan is absolutely fucking stupid, as I have already expressed earlier. Let me repeat why:

In mafia, there are 2 basic skills of a town member. 1. The skill to look town. 2. The skill to hunt scum accurately. A good player will have both of these skills. A "village idiot", probably only has skill 2. An "obvtown" player, probably only has skill 1. And a plain idiot will suck at both of these.

Let us make the simplistic black-and-white logic that any player here is either a good player or an idiot. Of course, mafia is grey, but just for ease of discussion.

Only "idiots" will get lynched, because they fail to look town. These players who have been lynched have a higher-than-average chance of having terrible reads. If we are going to play the game based solely on these players' words... we will not have a good end.

in essence: Players who get lynched suck. Players who suck, their reads probably also suck. Hoopla is suggesting that we suck these players. No thanks.

Hypothetical scenario, hypothetical bad scenario.

I'm not entertaining any lynch set up, plan, or letting any mislynchee dictate to me who to vote. Hoopla can advise whatever she wants when I'm not there, but this is my game. Did you know that this setup was my first choice pick? There's no outguessing the mod, setup speculation, NK WIFOM. This is pure scumhunting, an area where I have the upper hand. I can't be killed or silenced. The scum aren't even coming after me yet, they will essentially town confirm me before long. Then their hope will be to endgame me. That's marvellous. The chances of that happening are low like the Canadian Dollar. Welcome to Albert B. Rampage's class in Scumhunting, you will find your syllabus on the left hand side of your desk. Sharpen your pencils, class.

And I'll be the guest speaker. Welcome to class, Sir Rampage, it's a pleasure to work with you.

This is your warning bell, townies.

And this is your lack of vote.

Frankly, it's jaw-dropping how little the number of votes on Seraphim are, and it has been more than 12 hours.

Good. I want more people on the Eddie train. Seven of them would be very, very nice.

I explain my exact reasoning, and you accuse me of "salesmanship" without responding to a single fucking thing I'm saying?

Burn.

I, however, do not. Eddie is one of my stronger town-reads at the moment, alongside yourself, and I find that it would turn out better if we could all agree on a Seraphim, Sotty, or wgeurts lynch. Hoopla is also a suspicious character.

Yo Nacho get back and help us lynch scumfuck McGee please

Yo Nacho get back and help us lynch scumfuck McGee please

Someone string this up

If Eddie flips scum ICE is town.

No guesses? Okay, I'll reveal the answer.

HELLO EVERYBODY. DO YOU SEE WHAT THIS SCUMBAG DID.

"If Eddie is scum, Ice is town"

= "If Eddie is town, Ice is scum"

-------------------------------------------> If both are town, what happens? Let me tell you what happens. 6:4. Doomsday.

But nope, wgeurts didn't say that verbatim. He'll probably say that I'm lying again. Don't worry wgeurts, I'll slap your shredder in my next post. I can deal with people like you.

Pedantic bastard.

Class, please take your seats, it's time to begin. Please turn your books to Chapter I.

That made me chuckle this morning by the way. I enjoy class.

Sorry for being contrary guys!

Apology accepted!

Seraphim is a great vote.

But I'd appreciate it if you could actually buy my products instead of saying "It's great" then sidling away!

I'm fine with Seraphim votes, those are awesome.

Same to you, valued customer!

My team currently thinks that MS, G Ice, and zzzx are all town. I'm not completely sold, but I tend to agree.

Who exactly aren't you sold on?

But gun to my head, and I have to be deadly accurate here, I'm pointing my fingers at Hoopla, sotty and wgeurts.

I think this is a good list. Throw in a Seraphim.

I'm perfectly fine with a Wgeurts, Seraphim, or Hoopla vote in part with my current vote on GreyIce. Those are my big 4 right now.

Swap GreyIce with Sotty and we can all reach a happy decision!

Part of me wants to class Metal as town. He's earnest, his tone feels great.

Thanks,

I still don't really know why he is voting me, his points were kinda shitty

But I'd like to think that I am pretty crystal clear about my voting rationales for this game.

Currently, I'm having wgeurts and Sotty as scumreads. At the moment, I feel that my vote on Sotty would be helpful to the efforts of GreyICE, and will assist him in his scumhunting endeavor.

<longpost>

So, a thousand or so words in and I haven't actually seen decent analysis or scumhunting from your slot. Okay, I have no idea how Sotty plays. I have never played with her before, no meta, and I have never heard of this player until I have joined this game.

But. A lack of scumhunting. Not trying to find out players' alignments. That's something to look out for, eh?

What, nobody answered my Seraphim question either?

My attempts at having an interactive class just ain't very successful eh? Every time I ask a question, nobody answers

I feel much more confident about

MS-town

though.

Why?

His posting isn't just bullshit.

I can see shit actually happening in his posts, thought-processes, etc.

The wagon on me is bullshit

Seraphim (2) - Metal Sonic, Sotty7

Let me explain this in words, briefly. Seraphim calls me strong town, because I ain't bullshit. Seraphim calls the (2-man) wagon on him bullshit. I am the only major one on the (2 man) wagon.

Someone is taking a whole lot of heat from just a 2 man wagon. Don't need to get so snappy, that's less than half needed for a lynch!

Also if any of the fucks on my wagon want to come and actually engage me and talk with me and point out some reasons why I'm scum, I would be so down.

The "fuck" that you just labelled as "town" whose "posting isn't just bullshit" would like to have a word with you.

Your wagon was inspired because you had only previously made a grand total of 3 shit posts:

Spoiler: These posts are shit

I'm here.

Vote: Metal Sonic

If I can make this happen, it will save me me so many headaches.

I will post more substantially tomorrow with some questions and substance but I thought I'd post some reads copy-pasted from my notes:

TOWN
ZZZX (obv)
Empire (or Zor, now?)
ABR (obv)
wgeurts (ABR interaction looks good)

NEUTRAL
Nacho (town/null reading here)
Metal Sonic (still gives me a headache)
GreyICE
sotty (I need to sit on this thing with GreyICE)
Hoopla (hasn't posted)

SCUM
Eddie (don't like posting)
SilverWolf (agree w/ ABR)

Unvote
Vote: SilverWolf

Unvote
Vote: Kagami

My vote should be here, it didn't registered for whatever reason.

Your first post is obviously shit, because it is a check-in and an RVS vote. But that's okay.

Your second post was a bit less shit, because you provided your reads, so that we can see where you stand on the players in the game. Unfortunately, it is still shit, because firstly, there was no trajectory on any of your reads, which means that it came out of nowhere. Secondly, there is a lack of accountability, as there was no previous indication on how you were arriving at your reads, we are unable to see your thought processes behind the reads. Thirdly, it is shit, because your reasoning is scarce, less than 9 words for each read, we are unable to gain any new insights from your post. Finally, it is shit, because anybody could come up with that readslist by making a "Town", "Null", and "Scum" section, and randomly fill in the appropriate categories with the names in the playerlist -- it is falsifiable.

Your third post is also obviously shit, because it was just to fix a mod error in your voting.

In short, all of your posts were shit before #348. Shit + Shit + Shit = 3 times the shit.

And you wonder why there is a wagon on you. I'm disappointed that there are ONLY STILL two people.

Because sotty is going to flip town,

The use of "is going to" suggests high certainty or a high modality. This indicates that Kagami is extremely confident that sotty will flip town. Unfortunately for us, we cannot see her reasoning for such confidence.

This is her grand total of 2 posts that had any mention of sotty -- none of them implied Sotty was town, much less her reasoning.

Spoiler: Why is sotty town?

Hoopla was blatantly aware that the best town strategy was to form a block because otherwise it would be nearly impossible to get solid scum lynches.

That was her analysis, and she started out playing it as town.

If you think sotty is scum, hoopla is town at 114.

I'm ok with a sotty lynch if we do the vengeful thing starting with day 1.

Immediately Seraphim follows with:

Why do you think sotty will flip town?

Finally a post that is not shit.

In large part because greyICE wants to lynch him.

Why do you think he's scum, and why do you think grey is town?

And then Kagami posts a shit post.

I mean, it's a shit response to a shit playerslot, so that's actually okay.

But what the heck, is this reasoning for Sotty town? "In large part because greyICE wants to lynch him."

What, did you think that GreyICE is a shit player or something? Not going to call out any names here, but seriously?

I read that, serephim. It's not compelling. I agree that sotty's play isn't amazing, but I've seen far worse from town being tunneled into the ground.

GI's posting is bizarrely inconsistent, which is ironic given he says the same of sotty. The best point he makes is the token thing.

He complains that sotty is willing to town block with players who haven't even posted against, pointing to a list that is probably just people sotty likes/has played with before. Later hoopla shows up later saying she'll sheep GI and ABR and just gamble that they're town. Hoopla gets a solid town for that because hoopla understands the need to town-block.

He should have had hoopla as town at 114, given his suspicion of sotty. Instead, there are sprinkles of "hoopla might be scum" in the token conversation and hoopla's opening is "deliberately uninteresting." He decides hoopla is town at 272 for whatever reason. I asked him about it, and apparently GI doesn't do pre-flip associations. Meanwhile, Eddie is revving a chainsaw in 258.

sotty is apparently pathetic and the worst liar ever. And is a legendary scum player in the next post.

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that. 277 is another ridiculous thing I don't think town-GI would say. "One of my townreads is scum" reads as "I'll have to 180 on one of my townreads once my scumreads are all dead."

And yes, a lot of this oddly revolves around a greyice-hoopla interaction. I think they're scum together. The early hoopla-scum sprinkles might indicate town-hoopla, but it looks like it was just distancing that grey decided not to bother with since he inexplicably has a townread from everyone.

So on to that townread. Why is greyICE town, seraphim?

Okay, so this is a good post. There is analysis, reasoning, and an attempt to determine GreyICE's alignment, which is fine.

What is not fine is that Kagami has not explained how Sotty is town. When someone asks "Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?", it is not appropriate to answer "John did not steal the cookie from the cookie jar".

Similarly, it is not valid to provide a "GreyICE-scum" case in response to the question of "Why is Sotty town?".

I'm just not sold that sotty is scum anymore and I don't think she's a good lynch today.

Don't do this. You are in a world of trouble if you deviate from Sotty now.

There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that.

Ooh, this is juicy.

That's one of my trademark phrases, Kagami. I use that all the time, because one of the best scum tells in the whole wide world is when someone starts bitching that you're wagoning them for the "wrong reasons". "Why me, fry me" is one of the strictest rules in Mafia, and the best. And anyone who says otherwise is a shitter or scum.

You were Silverwolf? I am starting to LOVE the people showing up to this party with chainsaws.

You're serious? This makes me sad.

Well then, pay attention and you will learn something. I'll start GreyICE's school of how to fucking play mafia, except mine won't be nice and gentle like ABR's.

One of the cardinal rules of mafia is the cardinal rules of any situation where you have a guilty party. Barring utter psychopaths, guilty people know they are "supposed" to get caught. And there's very little way scum can honestly defend themselves from charges of being scum. Of course they were acting scummy, they were scum.When they start grabbing someone else and yelling "well this person was doing it too!" or "you should be going after them if you think that, not me!",

especially when they couple that with "And X wasn't really scummy at all"

then you can very safely hang them.

If you think this is wrong, you haven't been paying attention.

Once again, I repeat. This is perfectly valid and sound mafia theory. I agree with it myself.

What GreyICE lacks is showing how this argument links back to the point of Sotty being scum. Currently, GreyICE's argument is lacking examples and evidence to show that Sotty is guilty of performing this action. In order for him to make a coherent argument, it must be supported with evidence from Sotty's ISO.

So, GreyICE needs to work on drawing the link before we can lynch Sotty.

Seraphim. My friend. I'm going to give you one chance to realize how major your mistake was just now so you can correct it. I just showed you how scummy you look if Sotty flips scum. Even if she doesn't, your behavior in the last two hours are more contrived than the last season of How I met your Mother. I

will

lynch you later for this, you realize that, surely? You understand how this makes you look and how I will make sure that you flip because of this mistake, right?

Your next post is a vote for Sotty or I guarantee you I will see you to the ground,

personally

.

I like this.

I like Albert B. Rampage.

Spoiler: Mafia 101

My scumhunting lessons may be more gentle than yours, but when I say something, I mean it. That's the fundamental difference between us. Look at you.

I think GreyICE is really stretching my scum game and is choosing to ignore my actual preferences to make his vote fit.

I apologize that I caught you for the wrong reasons. It was quite terrible of me. In my defense, you hadn't posted yet. Since you started posting, you've given me so many better reasons for voting you.

You're totally fucking scum. You seriously want me to vote Hoopla rather than you over a reason you think is "bullshit"? You talk about remembering me not "going after the weaker of the two options" and the only game we played together was that hideous abortion where me and Reck ended up yelling at each other for most of day 1 and then the site crashed?

Sotty, you lying sack of scum, you are PATHETIC at this.

My opening vote was to get a read on you. And it fucking worked. You came in here and you launched this pathetic whine where you claimed my vote was illegitimate and tried to get me to lynch Hoopla.

A hundred posts later? Same fucking tune. Same. Fucking. Tune.

Why? You're not trying to sense my alignment. You're looking for weakness. I? I was trying to sense your alignment. And now I know. Now I know every. Little. Detail.

You are scum, and you will be lynched today. This is the end of the line, Sotty, the death tunnel, the white void. Fucking prepare yourself, because if you think MGS was me getting you killed, you ain't seen NOTHING yet.

These quotes right here? Showboating. For the audience. Big man, big threatening words. Nothing to back it up. As soon as a little risk comes your way, hesitation, confusion, "I will sheep you anywhere else ABR, don't make the baddies vote me if I'm wrong about my case ABR".

Man the fuck up.

Word it up.

ZZZX, Metal Sonic, and Zar/Empire are all town, we're 100% there, right?

Yes. Add ABR.

MS, ZZZX, Zar, chat with your teams. I want you on board here. MS, I know you are, ZZZX same, Zar, just chat with Regfan. He's the best fucking player on this site, bar none.

Already am.

Although I might be ignorant and know not who Zar and Regfan are, I probably should ask my teammates about that.

I think that's correct, yes, but if that's really what you're getting out my posts, then you're missing something pretty fundamental.

And I feel unsatisfied about Kagami's answer.

Let me explain why.

Throughout the game, Kagami has been strongly encouraging that 1. Sotty is town, 2. GreyICE is scum, 3. Kagami wants to lynch Sotty in order to lynch GreyICE.

All this is predicated on a "vengeful" paradigm, which I have already expressed my strong disagreement with. It would come as a surprise that this "vengeful" idea originated from Hoopla, apparently Kagami's scumread. One would expect to be more suspicious of an idea put forth by a "scumread", because of the inherent scum motivations behind their every post. Kagami's eagerness to proceed with Hoopla's plan while simultaneously calling her scum suggests recklessness or a lack of conviction in her Hoopla scumread.

Furthermore, Kagami is supporting a binaristic view of Sotty-Hoopla. I can understand if she has this view on GreyICE-Sotty, since one read is based on the other. However, it comes as a logic jump when multiple inductions are applied:
1. Sotty is town because GreyICE is scum.
2. Hoopla is buddies with GreyICE.
3. Hoopla is scum.
4. Hoopla and Sotty are mutually exclusive.

That is a total of 4 logic jump assumptions, and none of them have been justified clearly by Kagami, in my opinion. For example, why can't Hoopla and Sotty both be town, and are being played by GreyICE? Why can't Sotty and Hoopla both be scum, and are playing GreyICE? Why can't all 3 be town, and we would have lost the game if we actually followed through with the lynch of these 3 players?

There have been no clear reasons provided by Kagami to justify the Hoopla-Sotty binary, without making excessive assumptions or logic gaps.

So, I will ask again.

Why do you have a binary of Sotty-town/Hoopla-scum? Please explain your logic clearly.


_______

I am up to date.

Due to time constraints, I will respond to wgeurts "shreddies" package later.

Perhaps, wgeurts will use his catchphrase again:

Spoiler: The only argument he makes

[wgeurts]

Misrep, I literaly said later that Eddie flipping town wouldn't make ICE scum. You are scum, thanks for pointing that out again.

[wgeurts]

Also, you're lying and misrepping. Trying to frame me, you know that dropping the read now will make you look scummier so you persist to attempt to frame me.
Hence the almost conf-bias feeling you get reading the posts on me.
Lying is a scum town, never pro-town, and misrepping is also scum.