Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Titus]

Untrod Tripod? Is this a late, late April Fools joke?

Just pick which one you want. We don't have time for drama.

[hitogoroshi]

VC 34 (Minor Day 1, VC 34)

Boon:

This Minor Night, in addition to using a Minor Night action, target player may learn the Sign of any other player. This does not interact with any abilities in any way.

(5)

vezokpiraka:

Gammagooey, Espeonage, Shadoweh, ChannelDelibird, Titus [L-5]
(4)

Tammy:

GuyInFreezer, DeasVail, Untrod Tripod, Bulbazak
(4)

T S O:

T S O, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6, Marquis
(2)

Marquis:

Aronis, TellTaleHeart

(Marquis)

(1)

Shadoweh:

ActionDan

(3)

No Boon Vote:

Empire, mastin2, Tammy

(Titus)

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to Boon. Deadline is Sunday, April 5th at 9 PM CST.

Minor Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-05 21:00:00)

Less than two days until deadline.

GuyInFreezer is V/LA until April 6th.

[fferyllt]

You've mentioned this twice now but I still don't really know how I've been ignoring you! Yes, I read your posts, but it's not like I really have much to say about them!? I mean I'm curious why you don't want to boon me but I just kind of assumed it's for the same reason everyone else "implied", unless you were waiting for me to try and figure out a different reason why!

PEDIT see!

Woe is me!

I feel like the level of engagement you've had with me is off, but it's hard for me to gauge that when players don't have to engage me to sort me. So, the reasons to talk with me are different. And I feel like you're just kinda waiting for me to be gone and out of the game due to the lack of engagement. After saying that I *wanted* to scumread you - which implied that I'm not sure it's a good reason to scumread you, you later wound up in my townpile. that was a team-read and I personally still have reservations, and I've had time to see how you'd react to the read change (no reaction as far as I recall) and see if and how you raised your level of engagement with me (you didn't).

So, you've become a person of concern.

[T S O]

If I had an insta-Vig, I'd shoot Untrod Tripod for a multitude of reasons.

[Untrod Tripod]

[Marquis]

Mobile on the road now so just a short response, but I [ipstill [gi] don't know what you expected me to say! :/ I was glad for the townread recognization but you're confirmed town so it's not like I had anything else to think about there!

I suppose in a sense I could have been just "waiting" for you to leave since you had a townread on me earlier but I'd much rather not have you leave without a townread on me now because that would really suck! But again, I don't know what more you expect of me because I frel like post-your is the most open I've been with my thoughts out of all my games ever apart from the exclamation points which I don't want to stop committing to until I actually slip and I don't understand how you don't recognize me as obvtown. I think the only game we've had together for a while was Joss Whedon and this thought kind of cut out halfway through my mind making it but I guess the whole point of it is I don't know why you don't want to boon me and now don't townread me and don't really know how to fix that. gtg

[Titus]

If I had an insta-Vig, I'd shoot Untrod Tripod for a multitude of reasons.

Don't make me reconsider my townread on you.

First you are pretending passionate people don't do what they feel is right despite the team saying otherwise.
Now you're wanting to vig UT for a multitude of reasons you are not even mentioning.

This is looking like you are just attacking anyone who does not boon you or is a boon alternative.

[fferyllt]

Mobile on the road now so just a short response, but I [ipstill [gi] don't know what you expected me to say! :/ I was glad for the townread recognization but you're confirmed town so it's not like I had anything else to think about there!

I suppose in a sense I could have been just "waiting" for you to leave since you had a townread on me earlier but I'd much rather not have you leave without a townread on me now because that would really suck! But again, I don't know what more you expect of me because I frel like post-your is the most open I've been with my thoughts out of all my games ever apart from the exclamation points which I don't want to stop committing to until I actually slip and I don't understand how you don't recognize me as obvtown. I think the only game we've had together for a while was Joss Whedon and this thought kind of cut out halfway through my mind making it but I guess the whole point of it is I don't know why you don't want to boon me and now don't townread me and don't really know how to fix that. gtg

I don't give out step by step instructions on how to get a ffery-townread. There are plenty enough players who have reversed engineered the processes as it is!

You're one of the players I want to touch bases with my team about this weekend because I'd like some trusted opinions, especially if I'm wrong.

[Titus]

@FFery, While I respect a process, a wise person once said to me that mafia cannot be broken down systemically. I disagree partially, as votes can have that done to narrow down but not totally solve a game. Reading behavior alone I don't feel can. It assumes that all town share the same normative behavior as town. You said people have reversed it. Who has? (Do not say so out loud). Are you townreading them or their team?

[Titus]

Sorry that post is a little pedantic but I was trying to be as clear as possible.

[fferyllt]

@FFery, While I respect a process, a wise person once said to me that mafia cannot be broken down systemically. I disagree partially, as votes can have that done to narrow down but not totally solve a game. Reading behavior alone I don't feel can. It assumes that all town share the same normative behavior as town. You said people have reversed it. Who has? (Do not say so out loud). Are you townreading them or their team?

The game as a whole can't be broken down systematically with a few rules of thumb. That's not even remotely what I'm talking about. individual players' blind spots can be mapped and exploited. Even one player being able to do that when playing with me is plenty-enough.

When I figure out that someone can do that, then I adapt. but there are a few players who re-engineer as fast as I adapt, or who maybe know me well enough by now that they can predict how I'll adapt the next time out. I feel pretty sure that Nacho can, though the last time I encountered scum-Nacho I was at an extreme, real-life-based disadvantage and I feel in retrospect that my guard should have been up much higher than it was. Anyway, that's an arms race on both sides, and it's awesome to be playing in a game where I don't have to devote large chunks of my time and data analysis in figuring him out and deciding whether I trust his reads to be coming from town.

As far as players in this game or playing from the bleachers, rest assured that my reads take into account what I think they know about how I read them.

[Titus]

@Ffery, Ok. I think I misunderstoid you. 1257 implied a universal process to me.

I am out for the next 12-13 hours at best. Please let your teams know as well.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, your questions to me don't have answers beyond what I've already said, sorry.

Okay, I can kinda get that for the Aronis read, but not on the TTH post. I want to know what in that post you specifically found scummy, because you brought it out for a reason.

If I had an insta-Vig, I'd shoot Untrod Tripod for a multitude of reasons.

Don't make me reconsider my townread on you.

First you are pretending passionate people don't do what they feel is right despite the team saying otherwise.
Now you're wanting to vig UT for a multitude of reasons you are not even mentioning.

This is looking like you are just attacking anyone who does not boon you or is a boon alternative.

I'm actually not seeing this at all. TSO seems very nonchalant in regards to wanting the boon. Marquis on the other hand...

@Ffery: You never answered me and told me what criteria you were using to determine good boon targets. I figure that's a good way to understand how you came to the Vezok choice, because I'm not understanding why any of my town reads are town reading him.

[T S O]

First you are pretending passionate people don't do what they feel is right despite the team saying otherwise.

Yes, Titus. That is literally exactly what I'm saying - I have enough respect for my much-vaunted teammates to make the decision as close to a democratical one as need be. Maybe you don't respect your teammates - I have no idea who's even on your team. That's you. That's not.

Now you're wanting to vig UT for a multitude of reasons you are not even mentioning.

Why is this an issue? Maybe I think UT is scum. Maybe I think UT is a shit player. Maybe I dislike UT. Maybe it's a combination. But what is your actual problem with this? Because all you're doing right now is demonstrating the fact you can repeat posts ad verbum.

This is looking like you are just attacking anyone who does not boon you or is a boon alternative.

This is the most fucking ridiculous thing ever - my scumread on UT has been a constant so far, it has never been a townread, nor has it ever changed or mellowed. I also do not understand how I'm attacking Boon alternatives when I am

openly endorsing Cheetory for a Boon.

But continue saying that - I am sure it will go far.

[T S O]

EBWOP: That's you. That's not me.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery: You never answered me and told me what criteria you were using to determine good boon targets. I figure that's a good way to understand how you came to the Vezok choice, because I'm not understanding why any of my town reads are town reading him.

I gave my answer to T S O, but I think you're actually asking a different question: Why are we townreading Vezok? And the partial answer is we're reading him town because of the team he's on. The other partial answer is similar reasoning to CDB's.

[DeasVail]

Okay, I can kinda get that for the Aronis read, but not on the TTH post. I want to know what in that post you specifically found scummy, because you brought it out for a reason.

If I had an answer I probably would have said it already!

[Untrod Tripod]

my scumread on UT has been a constant so far, it has never been a townread, nor has it ever changed or mellowed

which is weird considering that a lot of time has passed since you formed that read!

[Untrod Tripod]

nor was that section even really in response to what she said! it's almost like you have no substative response to it!

[T S O]

It's almost like me saying "I support Cheetory as a Boon" multiple times doesn't immediate demolish that argument! It's almost like you didn't read the post!

[Untrod Tripod]

look we can stand around all day and argue, or we can just all agree that you're dumb and go home

and I for one have a busy drinking schedule tonight

[Untrod Tripod]

although I *too* support Cheetory for a Boon, so maybe I'm just being a dick to you for no reason

hmmmmmmmmmmm

[Empire]

There are some roles that will want to know the sign of people who aren't scummy though.

Eh, I still think Regfan's idea is way better since odds are it won't go into such a role's hands whereas we can guarantee it has some usefulness if we use it as another bane.

To be honest, I just kinda want to get the boon stuff over with because it's really boring to me and I want to get to the meat and potatoes of the game so if we could do that, that would be awesome.

---

I asked Regfan to go ahead and ISO CDB last night since I have a scumread on him but still have some reservations about some of his posts. Regfan's agreed with that scumread and I think it's stronger from his end and frankly a lot of what he had to say really convinced me. Here's what he and I discussed:

1) I've said this before but talking to Regfan again about it, we dislike the stance CES has apparently taken regarding bane'ing vezok due to him being hard to read from earlier today as that's not something we see town-CES believing (Regfan insists that even though vezok can be lurky, he's very transparent). Also, we've not been fans of the attention the team overall is giving to this game. CES, in particular, was really participatory in all of his team's games in the last team mafia (I've been looking for his team's QT link from the old TM but I can't find it right now, if anyone can beat me to it, that'd be great) so the fact that he's not really all that here reads way off to us.

2) The stance that CDB's entire team apparently thinks bane'ing me is a really bad idea in #754 vs. the later scumread on my slot in #761 still makes absolutely no sense to either me or Regfan. #754 in particular reads as though his team believes I'm town and the only way they can all agree that I'm a terrible bane is if they all townread me which makes no sense considering the later stance in #761. Basically, neither of us really buy their inter-team discussion (and I certainly don't believe for a second that CES would only think my replacement is "less skeevy", I think town-CES would have been a lot more unequivocal in that read).

3) Regfan also emphasized that he really disliked #776 as it basically says that CDB is not discussing his strongest scumread with his teammates, especially considering one has extensive meta with me. He also thinks a lot of his posts read like excuses rather than actual reads and analysis (this is what has been bothering me about CDB's play in the most general sense).

4) Regfan absolutely hated #1106 as he says it's like he's commenting on the possibility of a Tammy nightkill and how that can/can't be linked to me without really trying to read me or discuss my slot with his team.

[ChannelDelibird]

God fucking dammit, I knew I shouldn't have checked this from bed. I was just about to go to sleep then I saw this just as I set my alarm and now it's keeping me up. Phoneposting so I'm not going to go into any big response because I need to do that on a machine where I can tab around and type without having to go back and correct myself, etc.

The thing I know I want to ask now is how up-to-date is the meta you guys have on me, Empire? Is The Wire your main reference point here?

I will get into the things you've said as soon as I wake up.

[Empire]

The thing I know I want to ask now is how up-to-date is the meta you guys have on me, Empire? Is The Wire your main reference point here?

Admittedly, my meta on you is not very up-to-date. The only knowledge I have of your recent play is Mina telling me a while ago that you did really well in some recent game as scum.