We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[Titus]

VLA 3 days from this thread.

[deathfisaro]

Why vonflare due to votes?

I remember someone pointing out the speed at which vonflare wagon dismantled. It was D1 or D2 I don't remember but I brushed it off as trivial nonsense initially.
After setup speccing and theorycrafting, non-towns jumping off vonflare to lynch a more townie figure instead is a possibility. I'm still a bit bothered by how a claimed tracker (although it was poorly done) was lynched D1 over a lurker.

[Drixx]

*Snip*
My mental notes make that shit hard.

You really need to put this on a plaque or something and hang it where you can always see it all the time. Perhaps consider a tattoo inside your eyelids.

Great. Every scum should claim investigator then. His claim is inconsistent with known site meta.

Cops don't get a message saying your target is investigation immune. Kinda defeats the purpose of being investigation immune. It's also site meta to not give information regarding being roleblocked. You oughta know this given your experience here.

I was multi-quoting. Left this here so I could mock you for being wrong. In what warped idiotic world does a mod simply not respond to a night action? If a kill attempt fails, you just tell the scum QT/PT "Kill Attempt on PlayerX Failed" and that's all. They don't discern any reason for it. It's just childish and assholish behavior to leave someone without any result if something interferes with a submitted action that yields a result. It's one thing for a doctor to get no response other than a confirmation of submission. It's entirely another thing to leave a role that gets a result with nothing at all.

I'm reminded of a great John Locke (the LOST character, not the philosopher) quote from season 1: "You're not going crazy, Jack. Crazy people don't know they're crazy. They think they're getting saner all the time."

People do not get a PM on this site when roleblocked. Standard practice. They just sit there and continue on.

I had this issue in the very first scum game I played here and every game since. Anyone roleblocked is not PMed by the mod stating you were roleblocked.

You do realize that it's a fallacy to apply what happens in one game or a small subsample to

all

game right? It's so hilarious that you are

mod-confirmed

wrong with this stupidity. "Investigators should just never get a PM if something interferes with their investigation. That makes TOTAL sense!!!" LOL.

I think Titus is just being bad tbh

I feel like I can hear Handel's Messiah going on just now. Someone finally realized.

There's zero proof of werewolves existing. None.

So yes, keeping you alive to chase what is at best a serial killer role is a waste.

Actually me claiming BP to werewolves before we ever saw "Evsicerated" is at least weak evidence for werewolves, not to mention the whole 2nd post thing. LOL.

I love the cognitive dissonance on display here too. "There's zero proof of werewolves existing. None." (Except the guy who claimed BP to Werewolves before there was ever a kill flavor that looked like Werewolf and before the mods

clarified and included werewolf in the setup possibilities

). As if that weren't enough, you then continue to say "So yes, keeping you alive to chase

what is at best a serial killer role

is a waste."

It's so overwhelmingly funny that you don't even realize how much nonsense you're gibbering at this point. First there's no evidence. none. (when you refer to said evidence in other posts) and then you allow for exactly the possibility you claim isn't possible. This is the best entertainment I've had in days.

@House, you have to start working with people. I try to.

No one's asking you to change your mind but you should absolutely try to reason with people.

I know no one believes my success rate and that's why they won't follow me to Drixx. You don't get anywhere if you don't listen.

OMG this is so much truth. House I take back all those bad things I never said about you.

I kinda wanna lynch you Titus. So yeah. That's a thing.

I think that Handel bit is getting to the "Hallelujah" part just about now.

TPTG, I can separate the game from reality very well usually. Only one comment has ever gotten under my skin at a personal level, and that's not it.

I don't get why you're so angry though. If you're town, why aren't you just dismissing me as crazy?

Because your fake-ass looking paranoia and petty sniping either comes from A) extremely illogical ignorant town for the reasons I listed, or B) scum that wants to spin a narrative

Since I've mentioned that you (for some reason) are considered a good player, and that you act as if you use logic, I can only assume that your agenda is scum driven

No halfway decent town would spout the bullshit you've been spouting. And they damn sure don't giggle and dance around sniping at me while believing other claims

Illogical arguments fucking infuriate me, and please believe that when the day comes that were both dead, you damn well best not be town because you'll never hear the end of it from me

I love you so much Kuribo. I'm sorry I responded so badly to your day one stuff. I was just weirded out and it was so unexpected. Can we move to Utah and get married? Please?

{For the record, I'll be kicking back with Kuribo writing erotic fanfiction and mocking Titus}

UNVOTE:

Ok, the next game I mod, I'm making that clear that I don't send out "no result" pms.

Yes. When presented with a sane and logical approach to how to handle the effects of ability blockers, choose to go with the insane and illogical. Why do something rational when you can do it the Titus way?

OMG ... catching up to this game left me in stitches. Best. Thread. Catchup. Ever.

[Drixx]

Why vonflare due to votes?

I remember someone pointing out the speed at which vonflare wagon dismantled. It was D1 or D2 I don't remember but I brushed it off as trivial nonsense initially.
After setup speccing and theorycrafting, non-towns jumping off vonflare to lynch a more townie figure instead is a possibility. I'm still a bit bothered by how a claimed tracker (although it was poorly done) was lynched D1 over a lurker.

Because, sadly, that tracker didn't full claim. The very vanilla claim didn't fit the game. Turns out he was actually a

public

tracker, which was crazy good as his results would have been mod-confirmed without outing him. He should have done everything he could to just blend in and let his role go to town. I hope he takes the right lessons away from how that all went down. What a great role that was. I shiver a bit to think at what the scum must have for roles the counter what we know for sure are town roles.

[deathfisaro]

I actually wish today was D4, then we would have witnessed someone get nuked from orbit at the end of D3, Berlin Undercity's delayed NK flavour.
I wonder what happens if that target eats the day lynch. Is the person lynched, then the corpse nuked?

How do you know that?

I don't know that, but because I'm a Seer and I've seen flip from 2 mafia factions, I strongly believe in my conclusion of the setup. So I'm jumping to my favourite part of closed vanilaless games which is the setup spec <3

The only thing that's slightly annoying is how Vyse conceal flipped and the faction name has "Lair" in it.
But this is kinda countered by my drawback ability Skeptic.
I lose my Seer ability if no werewolf flips before D4. And if a werewolf conceal flips, that's kinda messed up.

If Volcano mafia is made up of werewolves (since Pika semi-full flipped and absolutely no indication of being a werewolf) then there's more, so one werewolf concealed flipping is okay, but that makes claimed similar roles weird.
Drixx is strictly weaker than ActionDan, and I'm strictly weaker than Boonskiies. Since AD & Boon's powers work against both mafia factions.

If nobody gets nuked at the end of today, I'll be quite disappointed, not only do I very likely become VT D4 which is sad already, I also failed at matching flavours with all the evidences presented =P

[deathfisaro]

We've seen flips from both mafia and they're both human. So werewolf has to be SK.

Now matching game.

Berlin Undercity
Tropical Volcano Lair
Werewolf

Nuked from orbit
Incinerated
Eviscerated

(I hate IE9...)

So...you're suggesting that Volcano...killed one of their own?

Yes, Berlin Undercity Mafia Bus Driver allows that.
With this many investigatives, what scums need is some ways to (albeit limited) control night action targetings. Scum bus driver works in both factions, like you can redirect incoming investigations on the teammate of your choice to some random dude of your choice, but you're not gonna target your teammate and some random guy and then decide to shoot said random guy to kill your teammate so I would say more likely Berlin (in my setup world anyway).

What Narninian claimed doesn't allow this (and I don't remember Narninian taking credit for this work) so instead of a weak town kill director, town has an absolute everything redirector (but bus driver is already that, isn't it?)

[deathfisaro]

@Bulba, what if we're making wrong assumptions and that Berlin harkens back to the Holocaust and incinerate is their kill and that Tropical Volcano Mafia is something Austin Powersish and they are nuking or shit from their lair?

I'm not really looking that deep into things, honestly. Although if one of the two mods did go that for, cool beans for them.

ChriVi, no. Don't chase that one. House is stupid, but not on the voting table. Talk with Cerb and see if you can agree on voting Death, or on someone else not-House.

But House isn't usually stupid. He's good when he's town- He's bad in this game. Which means he's not town.

so your theory is scum cop? or he delivered up his own with no immediate need?
I'm not buying scumhouse.

Agreed, I don't think the towncred House (well, keep having to say Ozgin because that was his work) and Lucian gained for killing the scums were worth sacking a mate over.

[deathfisaro]

I'm actually a little bit surprised that Cuttlefish answered that. Maybe if I mod a game it'll be very bastard =P

[Boonskiies]

prodge

[Toon Fighter]

Ok, first things first:

unvote

Sorry TPTG, but I kinda believe Death's claim. After having read the last 26 pages (damn this game moves fast) I am more confused than before on who to lynch.

@TPTG, I expect to be shot before the endgame regardless of our fighting because I can basically rescue a game at the end.

I believe the claims that act like town and make sense. I don't believe the other ones. If you weren't a "mason" you'd be a scumread. Your mason buddy TF hasn't been posting here at all.

@Bulba, what if we're making wrong assumptions and that Berlin harkens back to the Holocaust and incinerate is their kill and that Tropical Volcano Mafia is something Austin Powersish and they are nuking or shit from their lair?

I was VLA, Titus. People have things to do, sometimes. That should not be a game play issue (if you check, I was VLA across all my other games as well)

Actually, after having read through all claims and investigations BS, I think our lynch today should be VOTE: Titus

- Bad play overall, voting masons, attacking everywhere, irrational moves, an overall annoying player to read
- Role is not conftown by any means
- I don't want to lynch claimed investigators today, especially deathfisaro, since I kinda believe his claim, and since we already lynched two town PRs. If anything, I'd me much more willing to lynch Boonskiies, who keeps prodging and trying to live till tomorrow

I also would like to see BBMolla's role activated today.

I townread TPTG, cerberus, House, ChriVi, death (believe the claim, bad play, but should not be the lynch today). Neutral on Drixx, BBMolla, pretty much every other player. Scum read on Titus, Bulbasaur, Boonskiies, Oranje Crush.

[Narninian]

We've seen flips from both mafia and they're both human. So werewolf has to be SK.

Now matching game.

Berlin Undercity
Tropical Volcano Lair
Werewolf

Nuked from orbit
Incinerated
Eviscerated

(I hate IE9...)

So...you're suggesting that Volcano...killed one of their own?

Yes, Berlin Undercity Mafia Bus Driver allows that.
With this many investigatives, what scums need is some ways to (albeit limited) control night action targetings. Scum bus driver works in both factions, like you can redirect incoming investigations on the teammate of your choice to some random dude of your choice, but you're not gonna target your teammate and some random guy and then decide to shoot said random guy to kill your teammate so I would say more likely Berlin (in my setup world anyway).

What Narninian claimed doesn't allow this (and I don't remember Narninian taking credit for this work) so instead of a weak town kill director, town has an absolute everything redirector (but bus driver is already that, isn't it?)

Just to clarify

A) I didn't target either dead person
b) I can't make mafia kill itself

I could see a serial killer in this setup with a 1 shot 'reflexive' kill. There are so many protown roles and 2 scum parties killing, so it'd be reasonable to balance the scales. As as you said opposing mafia could be responsible.

[Titus]

@Drixx, Ignoring your wall of Titus sucks.

@Death, My problem is two fold. First, you seem like a pretty smart guy who has seen PR roles played before. Thus having some method of seeing who you investigated is important and I feel you should have picked that us.

Second, you've been very hostile towards players I think are town and now can coexist with you. Bulba's play is textbooktown for a reflexive jsilkeeper, yet you push him days after your reflexive claim? What?

That being said (I like your behavioral reasons). The vote based reasons suggest to look more at PV or Drixx than vonflare if you're talking D1 wagons.

VLA ended. Needed to cool down.

[Titus]

**days after you claimed to investigate the reflexive.

[Titus]

Your response to my readwall request was much more townie than other people.

[Titus]

If we proceed under the assumption that the masons are town (which I do not think is accurate but I am open to the possibility of being wrong), then I don't want to lynch vonflare or Lucian as they are unlikely to be tropical lair mafia. Also Berlin Mafia pushed a CW to Vyse

VysePresident (5) - copper223, Toon Fighter, ChriVi, Narninian, deathfisaro
vonflare (5) - ActionDan, Pirate Ika, BRantz, Ozgin, Jackel98
LucianRoy (4) - Drixx, BBmolla, Bulbasaur Commonwealth, Oranje Crush

We have
Vyse - Conftown, Mason, 1 way confirmed town, Strong Town Lean, Investigator
Vonflare - Extreme lurker, confscum, suspicious removal guy, House, conftown
Lucian - Drixx, nightskipper, prob town and lean town.

Now...how about them wagons

[Drixx]

If we proceed under the assumption

I think that, as far as this game is concerned, following any of your assumptions would be disastrous; if prior assumptions are indicative of the value of current and future ones.

Maybe try that again but color in the actual confirmed town folks, and make it explicit who you're pointing the finger at?

[Narninian]

There are no confirmed town folks (except for the dead) unless we make some assumptions.

[Titus]

If we proceed under the assumption

I think that, as far as this game is concerned, following any of your assumptions would be disastrous; if prior assumptions are indicative of the value of current and future ones.

Maybe try that again but color in the actual confirmed town folks, and make it explicit who you're pointing the finger at?

You sure are treating the masons as confirmed. I do think my post is quite clear.

[Drixx]

If we proceed under the assumption

I think that, as far as this game is concerned, following any of your assumptions would be disastrous; if prior assumptions are indicative of the value of current and future ones.

Maybe try that again but color in the actual confirmed town folks, and make it explicit who you're pointing the finger at?

You sure are treating the masons as confirmed. I do think my post is quite clear.

You know ... If you would just display some willingness to meet me halfway and play on rational and logical terms, I would be happy to legit share my thoughts and reads with you ... but every time I try to engage you seriously, you walk back into irrational responses and that awful case you think you have for me being scum because you don't seem to understand that you can't rationally read me based upon something that happened in another game with other people and a different setup.

You also refuse to take my word that I wasn't attempting to rolefish or get you to claim. Now that we're more than two weeks reviewed, just ISO me and go look at those posts by me again. I made it very clear what I was thinking, that I believed your claim, that I didn't want anyone to claim, and that I was concerned I was seeing scum vote manipulation at play. The person who knows me the best (both in mafia play and in real life) is in this game and told you exactly how I would have played the situation as scum. It's objective fact that TPTG had already outed you, which is not something a scum me would have missed (which Cerberus pointed out when he told you exactly what I would have done with that info ... you would have just quietly died without any ties to me).

Show me you will apply logic, ditch the stubborn behavior, drop the logical fallacies and actually re-evaluate and consider me an ally, and you can get me back into this game seriously instead of me just using it as stress relief. While you're taking a look at that ISO to see that I'm telling the truth about how that whole thing went down a couple weeks ago, look at the me who was trying to figure things out and shit. Wouldn't you rather have

that

Drixx helping the town?

Think about it. Ball's in your court.

[Narninian]

If we proceed under the assumption

I think that, as far as this game is concerned, following any of your assumptions would be disastrous; if prior assumptions are indicative of the value of current and future ones.

Maybe try that again but color in the actual confirmed town folks, and make it explicit who you're pointing the finger at?

You sure are treating the masons as confirmed. I do think my post is quite clear.

You know ... If you would just display some willingness to meet me halfway and play on rational and logical terms, I would be happy to legit share my thoughts and reads with you ... but every time I try to engage you seriously, you walk back into irrational responses and that awful case you think you have for me being scum because you don't seem to understand that you can't rationally read me based upon something that happened in another game with other people and a different setup.

You also refuse to take my word that I wasn't attempting to rolefish or get you to claim. Now that we're more than two weeks reviewed, just ISO me and go look at those posts by me again. I made it very clear what I was thinking, that I believed your claim, that I didn't want anyone to claim, and that I was concerned I was seeing scum vote manipulation at play. The person who knows me the best (both in mafia play and in real life) is in this game and told you exactly how I would have played the situation as scum. It's objective fact that TPTG had already outed you, which is not something a scum me would have missed (which Cerberus pointed out when he told you exactly what I would have done with that info ... you would have just quietly died without any ties to me).

Show me you will apply logic, ditch the stubborn behavior, drop the logical fallacies and actually re-evaluate and consider me an ally, and you can get me back into this game seriously instead of me just using it as stress relief. While you're taking a look at that ISO to see that I'm telling the truth about how that whole thing went down a couple weeks ago, look at the me who was trying to figure things out and shit. Wouldn't you rather have

that

Drixx helping the town?

Think about it. Ball's in your court.

Why are you making you helping town dependent on how one player is posting?

[Drixx]

If we proceed under the assumption

I think that, as far as this game is concerned, following any of your assumptions would be disastrous; if prior assumptions are indicative of the value of current and future ones.

Maybe try that again but color in the actual confirmed town folks, and make it explicit who you're pointing the finger at?

You sure are treating the masons as confirmed. I do think my post is quite clear.

You know ... If you would just display some willingness to meet me halfway and play on rational and logical terms, I would be happy to legit share my thoughts and reads with you ... but every time I try to engage you seriously, you walk back into irrational responses and that awful case you think you have for me being scum because you don't seem to understand that you can't rationally read me based upon something that happened in another game with other people and a different setup.

You also refuse to take my word that I wasn't attempting to rolefish or get you to claim. Now that we're more than two weeks reviewed, just ISO me and go look at those posts by me again. I made it very clear what I was thinking, that I believed your claim, that I didn't want anyone to claim, and that I was concerned I was seeing scum vote manipulation at play. The person who knows me the best (both in mafia play and in real life) is in this game and told you exactly how I would have played the situation as scum. It's objective fact that TPTG had already outed you, which is not something a scum me would have missed (which Cerberus pointed out when he told you exactly what I would have done with that info ... you would have just quietly died without any ties to me).

Show me you will apply logic, ditch the stubborn behavior, drop the logical fallacies and actually re-evaluate and consider me an ally, and you can get me back into this game seriously instead of me just using it as stress relief. While you're taking a look at that ISO to see that I'm telling the truth about how that whole thing went down a couple weeks ago, look at the me who was trying to figure things out and shit. Wouldn't you rather have

that

Drixx helping the town?

Think about it. Ball's in your court.

Why are you making you helping town dependent on how one player is posting?

I'm trying to turn us both into assets for the town. I don't believe either of us have been very useful to the game since our fight. I would appreciate it if you let Titus think it through and decide together with me for the both of us to move on from the silliness and get back to playing better.

And unfortunately, how Titus behaves has a direct impact on my engagement with this game. I already tried once to put it to rest, offer an olive branch and move on, but Titus kept on making snarky comments and digging it back up. I am hoping that with so much time having passed, this attempt will bear fruit.

[Titus]

@Drixx, There has to be something for me to reevaluate. You are throwing out logical fallacies and what not.

Town rolefishers admit they were rolefishing. Sometimes its decently town minded to rolefish. Yours I saw none and your denial of you hunting the rolefisher makes me like you even less. Given I knew scum were going to come after me, you have a trifecta of scum evidence. I am always open to discussing me being wrong but I am not open to just assuming I am wrong without evidence.

You want me to reconsider you, reads are how to do it. Especially a readwall that Bulba and I have asked you for. The other alternative is to prove I am a crazy loon by contributing. Engage what I put out. What do you think of VC 1.06? Does it make lynching Vonflare a bad idea? Those are constructive thoughts. When I work with the faulty assumption the masons are town, and I get bit, it makes me less wanting to cooperate.

[Drixx]

I wasn't intentionally rolefishing. As I said, I don't believe that role fishing is ever a town move. Town players should be observant and watch for Town PR breadcrumbs (so they can play smart, avoid bad wagons, use protective roles of their own on them, draw fire themselves if they are VT, etc...), but there's no upside to town players rolefishing at all. I never do it on purpose. That's why I kept repeating that I didn't want claims from what I was asking.

As for your thoughts on the claimed masons ... that could be a gambit. I certainly wouldn't put it past the players involved to try it. I would have expected them to be investigated already though. There are obviously fake claims as we should have more scum left than people who haven't claimed yet. For my money, the BB claim needs to be tested before endgame. If that claim was an early gambit it could win scum the game late while we now have enough information to make decent use of it if it's true. It seems like an exceptionally townie ability also, which would have the added benefit of giving the scum an ever growing list of hard choices on their kills.

[Titus]

Spoiler: 6th post complaining about me rather than posting a readwall

@Drixx, There is no purpose but to get a double voter claim. You asked people to confirm they were not the DV. You figure out who the DV is by eliminating those who aren't. Death's ask on Boon is technically a rolefish but I can see that coming ftom town.

BB's ability is alignment independent. I drew the same role as scum.

[Drixx]

Titus ... do you want links to the games off site where I saw scum roles which could manipulate votes, including giving extra votes to townies, which actually lost a game for town once when scum held it and used it at just the right time? You are biased because you knew all along what the answer was. In hindsight, it seems obvious what the answer was. When it was going on, the answer was a mystery to me, and my experience gave me reason to feel that what I was seeing could be harmful to town,

especially since I believed your claim

.

If you take away the fact that it was never a mystery to you and ask yourself whether it's plausible for me to have acted the way I did coming from my background if you accept the premise that it was a mystery to me, I think you'll find that I seem a whole lot less scummy in that exchange. Our experience and our knowledge often colors our perceptions.

Also, stop with the stupid youtube embeds. This is a nearly 200 page thread, and a proper reads lisit isn't something I just make up without updating assumptions and doing some re-reading ... especially not in a game that I've been trolling for the last two weeks. If you want a useful game analysis from me, you're not going to get it by constantly trolling me, because it's not something I feel comfortable just throwing up in 5 minutes when I haven't really been seriously plugged into the game for quite a long time.