UnCouTh mAfia - [UnCouTh eNding]

[Titus]

@salures, thank you. That's more helpful.

[pirate mollie]

I agree with ut. muffina has often said that accuracy of reads is only 50% of good town play.

[Bookitty]

I'm trying here, but my VCA does ferret out conftowns and I believe that and I'm not going to have them lynched. I just don't want it to be said as obnoxious but sheeped.

I'm a believer now, Titus. I think what you need to do to be believed in general is:

1. If you think you have conftown, just say that. Don't push one suspicious person over another. If you're wrong on which one of two is the guilty party, then that undercuts your credibility and makes people suspicious of you. Stick only to the facts you know first; then you can express your opinions. Label your opinions as opinions, though

2. Point to games in which it worked, especially if you start applying Step 1 above. It will make you look like a genius

3. Don't overstate your case. Anything that is known to catch scum can be manipulated. At best you should claim a 90 percent chance that you're right on town or scum imo; you never know when you're going to get played.

I'll believe in you now that I know your playstyle better, but that's another thing. I didn't find you arrogant. I just had trouble understanding where you were coming from at first. Now that I think I get you better, I think it would be easier to trust in you in the future. <3

[Titus]

Thank you Boo.

[Untrod Tripod]

there's a certain amount of "I'm going to listen to Titus from now on!" that will happen the more people see you accurately read a game

I can tell you for sure that in my future games with you I'm going to be sheeping your reads to some extent

[Titus]

I'd still avoid my early game to some extent. I'm better with real data than "emotional" reads.

[T-Bone]

You just present things in the way you type as if you're a mafia Goddess, and if you come down from that tone it'll change things a lot for you. You made it really easy for me/UT to be combative with you because of the way you present yourself in-thread. There is a tone in the way you post things that is cold and intimidating and makes it easy to mistrust you, and easy to fight you.

[Titus]

That's because scum use emotion to manipulate. *sigh* Logic can't be manipulated without the facts... so yeah I'm a little colder but I'm even working on being cheerier.

[T-Bone]

Emotion is how we play this game and you can manipulate it as town too.

[pirate mollie]

titus, my love, you do realise that there is a difference between the "facts" as you understand them and the evidence that are actually able to produce? your vcas are evidence not fact since they are subjective no matter how good they might be.

eta: you can manipulate vca too

[T-Bone]

Just remember everyone is manipulating everything so when you try to present something as 100% factual truth all you are telling everyone is "hey don't look at this while I quietly manipulate it".

[fferyllt]

Titus, I don't find you intimidating at all. I just find it incomprehensible that you talk in absolutes about a social game involving human beings.

[kuribo]

Titus just hasn't played against a scum that's skilled with manipulating VCAs yet

Like in Gay Mafia where the scum team voted the entire game as a single block because who the hell would actually do that?


Ah gay mafia, one regret against many

[notscience]

I don't think I was even scummy, I think I had like 1/2 posts people didn't like but none to bring on your attitude, UT.

I would have stayed in it had I not dropped down to 1 game due to real life shit, so sorry you had to replace in and complain.

[Titus]

@PM, I didn't see much distinction there. Yes, I get people have to filter through my alignment. Yet, if somethings true, it is true. If Egg had been scum, I would have been autoscum with him. If the Egg lynch went through and he flipped scum, I would have understood lynching me and gone back to the drawing board.

It is possible VCA can be manipulatable but not to a huge extent. Also, VCAs being manipulatable to hide from me makes little logical sense since I wasn't there.

[notscience]

Well I was kinda but I wasn't like "fuck you notscience" level scummy.

[Titus]

Titus just hasn't played against a scum that's skilled with manipulating VCAs yet

Like in Gay Mafia where the scum team voted the entire game as a single block because who the hell would actually do that?


Ah gay mafia, one regret against many

Damn, woulda loved that game for a test.

[Titus]

Titus, I don't find you intimidating at all. I just find it incomprehensible that you talk in absolutes about a social game involving human beings.

*shrug* I understand that. I rarely do that. It's only with what I perceive to be solid evidence that I do that. So I figured that it would more logical and understood when I speak in absolutes, hey there's something here.

The way to reach me is to say Presume X is true, then what happens.

Then I have two discussions, one where you try to prove X is true, the other with the logical conclusion.

[saulres]

Titus just hasn't played against a scum that's skilled with manipulating VCAs yet

Like in Gay Mafia where the scum team voted the entire game as a single block because who the hell would actually do that?


Ah gay mafia, one regret against many

Damn, woulda loved that game for a test.

Test against it now. Your VCA argument is that it's objective, so theoretically if it's 100% accurate, it should be applicable to any past game.

[Untrod Tripod]

Well I was kinda but I wasn't like "fuck you notscience" level scummy.

shit happens mang, I'm not going to hold it against you

[pirate mollie]

@PM, I didn't see much distinction there. Yes, I get people have to filter through my alignment. Yet, if somethings true, it is true. If Egg had been scum, I would have been autoscum with him. If the Egg lynch went through and he flipped scum, I would have understood lynching me and gone back to the drawing board.

It is possible VCA can be manipulatable but not to a huge extent. Also, VCAs being manipulatable to hide from me makes little logical sense since I wasn't there.

well, vca is an interpretative value system not mod confirmed info (barring bastard games wrt mod confirmed info) and I think that is the difference between evidence and "facts".

I feel like this is what you are missing.

[T-Bone]

Titus, I don't find you intimidating at all. I just find it incomprehensible that you talk in absolutes about a social game involving human beings.

*shrug* I understand that. I rarely do that. It's only with what I perceive to be solid evidence that I do that. So I figured that it would more logical and understood when I speak in absolutes, hey there's something here.

The way to reach me is to say Presume X is true, then what happens.

Then I have two discussions, one where you try to prove X is true, the other with the logical conclusion.

I speak in absolutes and generalizations and it gets me in trouble too

[kuribo]

Titus just hasn't played against a scum that's skilled with manipulating VCAs yet

Like in Gay Mafia where the scum team voted the entire game as a single block because who the hell would actually do that?


Ah gay mafia, one regret against many

Damn, woulda loved that game for a test.

Scum team was me, DGB, katsuki, and deas veil.

Veil got jail kept while making a kill by Fate / Nuwen's hydra, then outted. DGB and I claimed masons together and were counter claimed by the real masons who were vengeful lovers. Then Iecrint realized he had fruit vendored on katsuki and had forgotten kats was a claimed PGO

still, for awhile we were doing good lol

[T-Bone]

My problem with the way you are using VCA (and probably other's problems) is that is assumes some things. It assumes scum will be properly distributed in a VC and it assumes scum coordinate their votes with absolute precision to get this distribution. In my experience, I don't go out of my way to coordinate any sort of day play with my scummates.

[Titus]

Titus just hasn't played against a scum that's skilled with manipulating VCAs yet

Like in Gay Mafia where the scum team voted the entire game as a single block because who the hell would actually do that?


Ah gay mafia, one regret against many

Damn, woulda loved that game for a test.

Test against it now. Your VCA argument is that it's objective, so theoretically if it's 100% accurate, it should be applicable to any past game.

I know the answer, so I can't test against Gay Mafia.

I need the following conditions

Singleball, Day 3-5 (depending on size)
Scum not wagoned together. (Meaning two wagons on scum)

It only generates town reads... not scumreads.

I'm terrible at picking scum when it gets in the pool.