Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Cheetory6]

Why not vote for Shadow then singer?

[Cheetory6]

Cue Titus getting angry at me for a leading question.
*no fucks given*

[Marquis]

Oh, and before you tell me you have a townread on DV:

Nacho thought the interactions between DV and Marquis felt off. But the offness seemed mostly from the Marquis side. Which is a comfort to me because I was on my own in not liking Marquis in Gestalt.

I can kind of see where I was trying too hard for the snark even beyond the !!! but I just really want to be able to both like and townread DV but one of those things makes me super uncomfortable to death as of late!

I just want a super strong townread or two that I can rely on as things inevitably go to shit further down the line and it bothers me that I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head rn other than Tammy and DV who are still scaring the shit out of me, mostly the latter. whether that's an issue of the game so far or on my own personal issues end idk but either way I have a distinct lack of clingable townreads and an excess of incident-driven mild suspicions/scumreads :/

also re: tth, it's not a policy lynch at all. the switch earlier and huge differences in meta expectation from both sides of the team make the wagon ~work~!! oh and the result too mmm

You do not. You're claiming to be

really

conflicted about this read. But somehow, vezok's result is damning for an unstated reason. You also acknowledged yourself and should have a rough idea from how the Spring Dance played the reason we swapped. So you've already lost on all those counts, your argument has no leg to stand on, and the wagon doesn't "~work~" anymore.

really

This is exactly what I think! Choice 1 is better because no matter what the decision is, all will be the same and scum will either think someone will be protected or not be protected and target with either a massive number of kill targets or just one, with no in-between! So unlike Choice 2, if Choice 1 is selected, it actually has a chance of being useful if the latter scenario occurs (which it probably will with the 16:4 ratio)!

Thank you again DeasVail for using lots of words and phrases that accurately represent my current mindset! I only wish others could be just as on point and best friend forever-ly as you are!

great

Well, I'm very glad to hear all of this, especially the last part!

Attention, everyone! I have a deliberately mild townread on DeasVail! It is only (deliberately) mild because I need to stop being so naive about taking townreads on people I like as a person for granted! Please inform me of this set mildness if I ever seem to have too much faith in him!

selective

In this case I guess I can understand how it reads awkward!? I mean I really really do want to townread DV because he's ringing so many town bells; you could call it gut or something else similar that doesn't sound so unreliable, but then this kind of feels the same as how DV was like at the beginning of Quil's Smalltown game! It's like my hand one second just compulsively puts DV at the top of my town list but then the next second my memory tells it to swat it off down to the middle again! IDK really, it's hard to explain!

quoting

All these people townreading Tammy and DV this game makes me kind of nervous for some reason I don't really get! I mean I understand why it's like that for DV for me but I'm townreading Tammy while simultaneously feeling weird about it!

hm

[Bulbazak]

(7)

TellTaleHeart:

Titus, Empire, Tammy, Aronis, Marquis, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6

(ChannelDelibrd)

[L-3]

Okay, this is the TTH wagon at it's height. Titus, Tammy, and Vezok have the best reasons for being on this wagon, but everyone else kinda sheeps. Empire jumps on immediately with a naked vote. I don't think he ever expanded on the reasoning, and Singer is now trying a blind push on the slot, which is suspicious coming from her. Aronis and Marquis both jump on with a naked vote as well. Pressure on Aronis revealed reasoning based on the swap, which is BS reasoning that I see scum taking. Antihero hadn't posted anything, so to say the swap was scum motivated is stretching, as it makes just as much sense that they swapped so that Anti could play in a game size he could better handle. I find the fact that the Anti/TTH swap is shown as suspicious, while the Zar/Empire swap (Zar was actually under a substantial amount of pressure) is not worthy of a serious look. It makes me think the push on TTH for this reason is weak justification from scum to explain their actions. I've also pointed out that Aronis tends to be opportunistic as scum, and this follows in line with that. I'm also not please with Marquis, since his reason for being on the wagon seems to fluctuate. I really don't think that Aronis and Marquis are scum together, though. I find Cheetory's reason to be on the wagon to match up with how he's scumhunting. His vote is most likely town. CDB is interesting, because although he put TTH at L-2, he spent a lot of time trying to avoid the wagon. Overall, I'm thinking he makes up the third scum vote on the wagon, with the fourth completely avoiding the wagon, probably without even a serious mention. The other two are in {Singer, Aronis, Marquis}.

[Cheetory6]

I think CDB's reasoning for his vote made sense in the context of what he was asking TTH.

[TellTaleHeart]

Spoiler:

Oh, and before you tell me you have a townread on DV:

Nacho thought the interactions between DV and Marquis felt off. But the offness seemed mostly from the Marquis side. Which is a comfort to me because I was on my own in not liking Marquis in Gestalt.

I can kind of see where I was trying too hard for the snark even beyond the !!! but I just really want to be able to both like and townread DV but one of those things makes me super uncomfortable to death as of late!

I just want a super strong townread or two that I can rely on as things inevitably go to shit further down the line and it bothers me that I can't think of anything significant off the top of my head rn other than Tammy and DV who are still scaring the shit out of me, mostly the latter. whether that's an issue of the game so far or on my own personal issues end idk but either way I have a distinct lack of clingable townreads and an excess of incident-driven mild suspicions/scumreads :/

also re: tth, it's not a policy lynch at all. the switch earlier and huge differences in meta expectation from both sides of the team make the wagon ~work~!! oh and the result too mmm

You do not. You're claiming to be

really

conflicted about this read. But somehow, vezok's result is damning for an unstated reason. You also acknowledged yourself and should have a rough idea from how the Spring Dance played the reason we swapped. So you've already lost on all those counts, your argument has no leg to stand on, and the wagon doesn't "~work~" anymore.

really

This is exactly what I think! Choice 1 is better because no matter what the decision is, all will be the same and scum will either think someone will be protected or not be protected and target with either a massive number of kill targets or just one, with no in-between! So unlike Choice 2, if Choice 1 is selected, it actually has a chance of being useful if the latter scenario occurs (which it probably will with the 16:4 ratio)!

Thank you again DeasVail for using lots of words and phrases that accurately represent my current mindset! I only wish others could be just as on point and best friend forever-ly as you are!

great

Well, I'm very glad to hear all of this, especially the last part!

Attention, everyone! I have a deliberately mild townread on DeasVail! It is only (deliberately) mild because I need to stop being so naive about taking townreads on people I like as a person for granted! Please inform me of this set mildness if I ever seem to have too much faith in him!

selective

In this case I guess I can understand how it reads awkward!? I mean I really really do want to townread DV because he's ringing so many town bells; you could call it gut or something else similar that doesn't sound so unreliable, but then this kind of feels the same as how DV was like at the beginning of Quil's Smalltown game! It's like my hand one second just compulsively puts DV at the top of my town list but then the next second my memory tells it to swat it off down to the middle again! IDK really, it's hard to explain!

quoting

All these people townreading Tammy and DV this game makes me kind of nervous for some reason I don't really get! I mean I understand why it's like that for DV for me but I'm townreading Tammy while simultaneously feeling weird about it!

hm

None of those quotes are townreads. They're all conflicted and you make sure we know that.
What's your point?

[TellTaleHeart]

ok so 1) my dv read is nowhere close to a "distinct and very clearly stated 'not town' read"; i have dv as town, but kind of warily because of how strong my townread on him was when he was sk last game, but i do expect this kind of play from him as town so i'm pretty much holding him up there because there's no point in doubting that this early. and i'm pretty sure i've repeatedly said this at least like 5 different times today and yesterday.

2) even if i

was

scumreading dv i'm not an idiot. unlike ~certain other players~ i'm able to recognize that just because i have a scumread on a player it doesn't mean the rest of the game does/has to agree with me. even if i was scumreading dv i'm not fucking blind, throughout the whole game he's been pretty much a universal townread. you're calling on some sort of nonexistent contradiction to misrep my opinions the other way around and discredit me and it's complete and utter bs

Even if I granted this (and it's bullshit), how does vezok's result mean anything to you?

[Titus]

@Singer, I did.

Also, I do drunk post, regardless of alignment. ABR wanted to see it and see reactions and I generally am trying to be a little more LOL ok at the start of the game considering we don't have as much to form conclusions on.

@Cheetory, that's not a leading question.

@Bulba, Your case makes mostly logical sense, but I'd expect a vote on CDB. He seems to be the universal scum in your read. I'd follow you onto CDB or Singer as I like the analysis there. I'm not really seeing much on Marquis though. I'm not really seeing the "fluctuating reason", maybe you can expand on that more?

[Marquis]

so i just realized that at least through ctrl+f'ing i talked about my dv read a lot less and a lot less clearly than i thought i had

i've had dv as town since around the time we had our fun little discussion there (591). just because i've expressed a lack of confidence in my townreads on him and tammy (multiple times because, yes, it bothers me that i haven't been able to just take a townread for granted yet) doesn't mean you get to keep saying i'm scumreading them. the fact that you're trying to sell my nerves and unsureness over my reads as a full on scumread on dv and as an indication of me totally being scum for sure when both you AND anti should know when i'm town this is what you get from me and that it's when i'm scum that i don't question my reads - even more bullshit.

[Cheetory6]

@Cheetory, that's not a leading question.

Damn. I suck at words.
*goes back to programming where he belongs :c*

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Actually, I'm getting ready to take a closer look at my bane wagon. I might switch my vote after that.

[Untrod Tripod]

holy shit guys

holy shit we have nothing to go on

can we just lynch someone bad and move on

Really? Nothing.

We had enough to bane and boon.

Why can't we just cooperate? *bats eyes*

FINE. GAWD.

so I don't really know how to read the bane and boon from the beginning of the game? if you have any ideas there I'm all ears

[Marquis]

this is also me admitting my original reasons were probably really dumb aside from the sheeping itself but i still refuse to believe town!anti swaps out of the game while continuing to keep up with it enough to relay a scumread on me based on my scumread and concern over your slot for reasons that he

knows

exist and are mostly true. it's even more bullshit bullshit bullshit.

and i saw the dead qt of spring waltz which you're so fond of bringing up like some sort of paper shield and as town he didn't post there or in endgame at all once he was out of it. it's exponentially more likely that this is scum!anti using you as a buffer for the lack of towntells your whole team knows i and a bunch of other people can catch him up on if he's scum or just allowing you to pretend like he knows what's going on where you feed him selective quotes to get anti-speak lines in return, and as far as i know you're a significantly better scumplayer than him too.

you're presenting this scumread on me as coming from both you and anti, and that's crap. the idea that anti could at all scumread me even on his own for the reasons you say he has is crap. and while i may not have the kind of clout you do, it doesn't change the fact that you're scum and sooner or later i'm going to watch you and anti both burn.

[Titus]

I really want to wagon Espy to see what shakes loose. When the Espy talk takes off, suddenly everyone wants to talk about Marquis, and that makes me uneasy.

UT, the bane on Bulba is interesting. It almost reads like Bulba is a mislynch in reserve. If everyone's scumreading Bulba, why didn't Bulba take off, and thus make my vote on TTH symbolic pressure? Scum reaching to mislynch TTH and forget about Bulba?

@Cheetory, a "leading question" is a question that suggests an answer or otherwise pushes someone towards an answer. For instance, "You seem to be leaning this way. Why are you?" That suggests to the person to defend the position. Versus "I can't tell your thoughts on X, I think you're townreading them. Am I reading you right?" The latter invites discussion, clarification and consensus. The former pushes towards a conclusion.

[Titus]

Merely asking someone why X over Y is not leading if it's clear that they chose X over Y.

[Bulbazak]

(10)

Bulbazak:

DeasVail, Gammagooey, Shadoweh, Cheetory6, Titus, vezokpiraka, GuyInFreezer, Aronis, Tammy, T S O

(Tammy)

[Decided!]

Also, the following people tried to cast bane votes on me after the hammer: CDB, UT

Up to Cheetory is the wagon as it was for the longest time. All four had reasons for being on that wagon, even if I don't agree with them. I have DV as obv. town ticked off at my questioning him, and Shadoweh as conf. town suspecting me for the same reasons. Vezok and TSO being on the wagon also don't surprise me. I'm disappointed in Titus, GIF, and Tammy for joining this wagon, as all three were heavily townreading me. Yes, they wanted a decision to move on to boon, and as such they compromised, but if they were following the same rules as they would in a lynch situation, if you have a strong townread on someone, you don't compromise on them ever. I at least saw the struggle from Tammy. Really disappointed that Titus and GIF caved so quickly, especially since they could have directed the wagon onto Empire or Gamma, both on wagons that they weren't strong townreading. Again, Aronis's vote comes across as bad here. His bane vote was due to OMGUS, but if you look closer, you can see that he was avoiding answering any of the questions or criticism I was sending his way. I also don't like the timing of his vote in connection with its overall place on the wagon. It just seems way too convenient. CDB's vote falls soon after TSO's, and I can see where he might not have seen it. Nothing suspicious there. What is suspicious is that this is a start of a pattern. He was very wishy washy about where he wanted his vote before and only voted for compromise reasons. Before that, he really didn't have much of an opinion on me or anyone else one way or the other. If you go back, you'll also notice that he compromised on the Vezok boon wagon, hiding behind Ffery, if I remember correctly. Now follow up that pattern with his treatment and jump on and off of TTH. He seems to be supportive of the popular wagons, but only at times that such support won't garner him suspicion. UT's vote comes a full two hours after the hammer. Given that people were constantly giving the count in the thread, making it obvious that TSO hammered, there's no way UT couldn't have done the math. This makes his vote for show.

All in all, I think this makes Marquis look a little better, as scum around my wagon are in {Aronis, CDB, UT}. Combined with analysis from the TTH wagon, I think we definitely have scum in {Aronis, CDB}.

Unvote

Vote ChannelDelibird

[Titus]

Marquis, can you get me games where you were mislynched as town? I want to compare them.

VOTE: CDB

[Marquis]

frightened inmate number3

[singersigner]

@Singer, I did.

Also, I do drunk post, regardless of alignment. ABR wanted to see it and see reactions and I generally am trying to be a little more LOL ok at the start of the game considering we don't have as much to form conclusions on.

Are you saying you did respond to this, or you still want to? If the former, the closest I can find to commenting on that are 1675 and 1676.

Also, with regards to your statement that we don't have as much to form conclusions on, are you referring to within the first few pages pages of the game, or at that game state in which ABR requested you drunk posted? Because at that game state, there were plenty of things to comment on, more specifically the concept of the Bane/Boon votes/wagons. You recently told UT he should be using those to form his conclusions, so what reactions were you hoping to gain by getting drunk, broadcasting that you were asked to do so, and then following it up with this explanation?

Preview Edit:
I understand you're a lawyer and totally respect the way you're defining "leading question" within that context, but within the confounds of this game, I disagree with how you're interpreting it. I think you're arguing semantics and projecting what you interpreted as a leading question without trying to infer or discuss the motivation behind it, which is the same mistake you're accusing Gamma of doing.

[Marquis]

though tbf you only almost mislynched me there and killed me when me being vig was the one huge thing that meant you couldn't

[Titus]

@Marquis That one I mislynched you and I am looking for more generally. I'm not looking to mislynch you IMO, so comparing your weaknesses to my push in a radically different game gets me nothing. I'm looking for a pattern in your town flail that scum would capitalize on, since I think you're town.

@Singer, Give me a second.

[Cheetory6]

Why not vote for Shadow then singer?

[Titus]

That one I did miss Singer. Sorry I thought you were referring to the massive list of people you wanted to pressure.

Are you trying to suggest that I was saying "let's pressure more people" as opposed to deducing your motivation for not putting a blanket pressure vote on people producing low activity?

You're also going to have to explain "mean Titus" to me, since I don't recall ever actually playing in any games with you, and as far as I can tell, nothing in the last page should've been provoking enough to warrant any sort of aggressive response.

Yes.

I tend to be overly aggressive and push too loud once I have a suspect. People have told me to tone it down but when I see really suspicious behavior I find it difficult.

[Marquis]

i still want to know why bulba is so intent on shoving the tth wagon into some sort of "scumblockvote on conftown" category

because as for me i'm seeing a really good wagon that died too young with titus-ignoremaybetown tammy-probtown and vezok-iguesscanbetownjustignoringmostly on it with me, and regardless of my own reads i don't see how you could get that from titus tammy vezok and cheetory being there in terms of general game agreement townreads.

[Marquis]

I'm not looking to mislynch you IMO

what