8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[wgeurts]

Now my Zar scum read isn't the strongest but it's base off him being rather "flexible" with his reads. If I'm wrong on one of my scum reads it's probably him.

His reads list in post 717 is rather conveniently structured. He's got a Sotty/Seraphim/Eddie/Kagami lynch-pool; basically a broad group of those that the most people suspect of being scum. Hoopla's also nicely in the middle meaning he can transition to her quite easily if wanted, this was when discussion on hoopla was starting and hadn't yet brought up a wagon or strong scum conviction. He also doesn't vote anyone strengthening my thought that he was setting up to cherry-pick a good wagon after waiting a little more.

969 continues this as he votes sotty when hoopla and kagami are both being wagoned hard at that moment. Why doesn't he vote them as it's obvious sotty isn't getting lynched at that point in time, kagami he fully ignores (one of his scum-reads) and he doesn't say a word on hoopla. Could it be, he's once again positioning himself to join one of these wagons? Using the sotty vote to make it look less blatant?
He also starts to shed a bit more doubt on nacho, around the same time others were starting to shed doubt on nacho. 975 blatantly expresses this suddenly growing suspicion, he's still pushing a stupid wagon and not even commenting on kagami.
Most of his nacho scum read is because nacho town reads seraphim while Zar doesn't making nacho suspicious.

The next day he suddenly agrees with a kagami lynch, he completely ignored it the day before and now he decides it's worth pushing. He also makes sure that he shows suspicion in nacho, the other likely wagon. Sotty is no longer worth wagoning it appears.

[wgeurts]

Zar never did join any of the late game wagons, he road his sotty vote to lynch. I don't like how he did so.

[wgeurts]

More sorted reads

Town

ABR
ZZZX
MetalSonic

Likely Town

GreyICE
Nacho

Possibly Town

Sotty

Possibly Mafia

Seraphim
Zar

Mafia

Kagami
Eddie

[wgeurts]

ABR, I'm willing to work with you if you can convince me X is scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Nacho is scum. I guarantee it.

[wgeurts]

Ok, why?
Titus likes giving reasons, you must have some you can share.

[wgeurts]

If nacho flips town we will lynch kagami right?

[Sotty7]

And there's a little town cred that he resisted hoopla lynch, could be faked but hey.

i find anyone who "resisted" that lynch mostly scummy action wise/
and anyone who just accepted it as fate scummy too.

That pretty much includes everyone right? You're going to have to be more specific.

Not a fan of Nacho's VCA since we only have one confirmed alignment so far and it was the person wagoned. The rest is just his reasoning hiding behind some kind of theroy to give it more weight.

She's also not willing to scumread that many players: yesterday, she had a townread on ZZZX, wgeurts, ABR, Zar, Hoopla. If you add her to that townblock, you get {Kagami, Seraphim, Eddie, Nacho, GreyICE, Metal Sonic}. She said the only thing she had against Kagami was her lurking, but she made a few points and then disappeared. She pushed against Serpahim. She took light potshots against Metal Sonic. She soft-pushed me a couple of times to say I never was intense as I usually was, but never really advanced past that.

Currently scum reading Metal. Zar is slipping down that slide too. Outside of that my strong town reads are ABR, wgeurts and maybe ZZZX. Eddie is more neutral. You... I'm not sure on. I want to believe. I'm thinking that GreyICE v Kagami could be town v town which means I am missing a scum that I need to figure out, but I think that will come once we actually get some good lynches going.

Her thought processes are also basically just lacking in depth: town-Sotty isn't afraid to pursue a variety of different avenues, she has small theories here and there, her reads are fluid as hell because she's constantly thinking about them, and even though I'm willing to allow a little bit dialed back because working in the coal mines is seriously tiring business, but this Sotty feels like a different person completely from normal town game.

I very much disagree that I haven't been pushing different avenues. You just don't like said avenues. There is a difference there.

I do very much like nacho's Seraphirm and Eddie paragraphs though. This is more of what I want to see makes me hesitant to jump on your wagon.

Zar

~ Why are you voting Kagami? I think I missed that. You wrote a whole post talking about Empire's reads and then slapped a vote down with no further explanation.

Seraphim is still actively lurking like a mother. I really don't get why we're willing to just let that slide right now.

[ZZZX]

And there's a little town cred that he resisted hoopla lynch, could be faked but hey.

i find anyone who "resisted" that lynch mostly scummy action wise/
and anyone who just accepted it as fate scummy too.

That pretty much includes everyone right? You're going to have to be more specific.

Not a fan of Nacho's VCA since we only have one confirmed alignment so far and it was the person wagoned. The rest is just his reasoning hiding behind some kind of theroy to give it more weight.

She's also not willing to scumread that many players: yesterday, she had a townread on ZZZX, wgeurts, ABR, Zar, Hoopla. If you add her to that townblock, you get {Kagami, Seraphim, Eddie, Nacho, GreyICE, Metal Sonic}. She said the only thing she had against Kagami was her lurking, but she made a few points and then disappeared. She pushed against Serpahim. She took light potshots against Metal Sonic. She soft-pushed me a couple of times to say I never was intense as I usually was, but never really advanced past that.

Currently scum reading Metal. Zar is slipping down that slide too. Outside of that my strong town reads are ABR, wgeurts and maybe ZZZX. Eddie is more neutral. You... I'm not sure on. I want to believe. I'm thinking that GreyICE v Kagami could be town v town which means I am missing a scum that I need to figure out, but I think that will come once we actually get some good lynches going.

Her thought processes are also basically just lacking in depth: town-Sotty isn't afraid to pursue a variety of different avenues, she has small theories here and there, her reads are fluid as hell because she's constantly thinking about them, and even though I'm willing to allow a little bit dialed back because working in the coal mines is seriously tiring business, but this Sotty feels like a different person completely from normal town game.

I very much disagree that I haven't been pushing different avenues. You just don't like said avenues. There is a difference there.

I do very much like nacho's Seraphirm and Eddie paragraphs though. This is more of what I want to see makes me hesitant to jump on your wagon.

Zar

~ Why are you voting Kagami? I think I missed that. You wrote a whole post talking about Empire's reads and then slapped a vote down with no further explanation.

Seraphim is still actively lurking like a mother. I really don't get why we're willing to just let that slide right now.

protecting hard/hard pushing hoopla doesnt deserve any kind of town cred. might be even somewhat scumish . most town block members voted him for clear reasons and tried to get the true allignment of him. however he ended up just refusing everything and doing most random thing he can.

[Metal Sonic]

vezokpiraka would like to say that zzzx's last few posts were like he was scum caught for the wrong reasons!

[Metal Sonic]

havent been able to write walls cause very busy with programming business

getting zzzx to help me outside of game!

[ZZZX]

vezokpiraka would like to say that zzzx's last few posts were like he was scum caught for the wrong reasons!

What does he mean? o.O

[Albert B. Rampage]

Ok, why?
Titus likes giving reasons, you must have some you can share.

I already mentioned. She thinks that Nacho is playing professor mafia, trying very hard to get towncred rather than scumhunt. Titus has been adamant Nacho is scum for the pas week. She thinks you're town and I should convince you to vote Nacho, but I won't do that. I will let you make up your own mind, and I will do nothing to help you vote anyone else that isn't Nacho.

[GreyICE]

So basically... we're not getting a scum lynch today? Lets poll the scum and ask them how they're feeling about this!

Votecount 2.5

Seraphim (1) - Sotty7

Not Voting (3) - EddieFenix, Kagami, Seraphim

Yep, big bowl of popcorn and watching the action in their thread.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm not changing my vote until Nacho is lynched.

[Albert B. Rampage]

And I like the guy. He's one of my favorite players. Yesterday, I learned that he was a young black kid, and that adds to his charm. Unfortunately, he also drew scum here.

[Zar]

His reads list in post 717 is rather conveniently structured. He's got a Sotty/Seraphim/Eddie/Kagami lynch-pool; basically a broad group of those that the most people suspect of being scum. Hoopla's also nicely in the middle meaning he can transition to her quite easily if wanted, this was when discussion on hoopla was starting and hadn't yet brought up a wagon or strong scum conviction. He also doesn't vote anyone strengthening my thought that he was setting up to cherry-pick a good wagon after waiting a little more.

Most of the reasoning behind my scumread of Eddie had to do with the way he jumped over GI to defend Sotty, who I am scumreading. I’m still not over that I just came out of a game with Eddie where he actually claimed to be a member of the scum faction being town (more awkwardly, a town member of the scum faction), so in part I’m still wary whether his play here was just bad or scum. What you seem to interpret as flexible is just me trying to read behind the motivations people have to do things; I normally run a million scenarios in my head when something catches my attention and I tend to second-guess myself a lot.

Most of his nacho scum read is because nacho town reads seraphim while Zar doesn't making nacho suspicious.

No. My nacho doesn't come from mostly from the town read of Seraphim. It has to do more with the two-fold interaction between Seraphim and Nacho (from his side, the reason to town-read him feels lazy) and the way Nacho has been soft-handling my slot; I would have expected him to reach out to engage Empire more (regarding that read in specific) without being called out and I feel like the read he’s given me is conveniently murky.

The next day he suddenly agrees with a Kagami lynch, he completely ignored it the day before and now he decides it's worth pushing. He also makes sure that he shows suspicion in nacho, the other likely wagon. Sotty is no longer worth wagoning it appears.

I still think Sotty is worth voting? I'm not townreading her (you calling me out about Kagami makes me feel warm and fuzzy about your slot, OTOH Sotty parroting you in this right after feels opportunistic).

Zar never did join any of the late game wagons, he road his sotty vote to lynch. I don't like how he did so.

I wasn't particularly feeling the Hoopla wagon because the wagon on her felt like a convenient place to vote as scum, it also rose too quickly to be town driven (which Mina strongly agreed upon), and at the time… The Kagami scumread was in part inherited by way of Empire’s thoughts the SilverWolf slot, but I was not *that* confident Kagami's moon logic regarding GreyICE was likely to come from scum either. My current stance on Kagami is a consensus team read.

[Metal Sonic]

So basically... we're not getting a scum lynch today? Lets poll the scum and ask them how they're feeling about this!

Votecount 2.5

Seraphim (1) - Sotty7

Not Voting (3) - EddieFenix, Kagami, Seraphim

Yep, big bowl of popcorn and watching the action in their thread.

You're funny.

If nacho is scum we would need most of the town to lynch him, scum won't bus. This is exactly what's going on.


It is also fun to observe that you belong to the group of {not voting nacho} people!

[EddieFenix]

Scum:
Spoiler: Eddie
His early game play looks like he's just trying to appear pro-active, the posts however contain very little content and there is definitely no visible though process of read being formed. Most of his reads are fully unexplained, something that in my opinion is anti-town.
Then there's also how his scum reads were so convenient; Seraphim, me, Hoopla and ICE are all easy to push reads. Why would this this be scummy? Well it basically means that if a wagon appears to get enough traction to actually become a lynch on one of them he can jump on it using the reads as a statement, the fact he's barely explained them also makes it easy to get on a wagon. As he can't contradict himself he can just suddenly find reasons to explain his read whenever he sees fit.
Or he just never explains them and hops on a wagon, like, say hoopla.

@Wgrets
Hoopla I was willing to lynch based on NO content what so ever and scum hunting at all. I never even considered Hoopla as a town read, at all. Also, if you're calling Ice an "EASY" push, you're fucking insane.

EddieFenix

EddieFenix... on first pass, seems a hell of a lot like Kagami 2.0, with much weaker logic and a hell of a lot more sass.

Things I like:
-General confidence and shittalking

(Tis what I do)

-Bulba Capcom Crossover Theory (Where did this go? Why didn't you ever push me more?) (Need to talk to Bulba so he explains that one in depth when he's not fully fucked in the mouth with bullshit)
-Bulba and him being in sync posts

What I don't like is, again, the sitting on GreyICE all day and not really pursuing any alternatives which could possibly be scum.

(When I feel like I have scum in my sights, and you can find a couple hydra games with Bulba that I've done this, I. Don't. Let. Up. UNLESS, there's another one of my scum reads that I feel to move towards.)

And his case on GreyICE is not so great, it's actually really really horrible. All he does is say that GreyICE's Sotty case is horrible salesmanship, and then absolutely nothing at all until the Hoopla/GreyICE team theory and #602, which is where the bullshit comes to a head.

Grey's first point is that Eddie didn't actually interact with his townreads in any meaningful manner, which is suspicious because usually people interact with other people before they're worshipping them as town as shit.

Eddie's rebuttal is that it's fucking astonishing GreyICE believes that Eddie's team isn't in his ear, which actually isn't a rebuttal at all and instead is a really cool "oh team mafia is my excuse!!!" bit like Seraphim's #966 was.

(Yet further down from here you question Mollie's read...? Bulba was SHAKY town reading you. I need to talk to him and see if he'll give me a different shake on this. I'm also gonna request Mollie looks at it.)

Eddie's attack on Grey is the exact same as Sotty's was waaaay back on Page 1 (namely, that he should have voted Hoopla before Sotty), which is an old accusation that was already addressed in 119.

(Need more on this please)

Then he has an accusation that Grey called Sotty's scumgame "legendary" in response to a reference to a game where Sotty was town, so yeah that makes no fucking sense.

Then he accuses of Grey misrepping that he and Sotty have played multiple games together, even though I'm pretty sure Sotty didn't link any other games.

(You take one game played and then then word your posts by saying that said game was the ONLY game that you've ever played together, when the player in question says gameS plural?? Pardon me if I find that a bit... Not right in all honesty...)

And then calls him scum because he didn't rip apart ZZZX's PBPA for reasons that I don't really understand at all.

(How do you not? ZZZX took GI's posts from early game, pointed out that all but 1 of them were useless/pointless, and yet GI didn't slam him it? Ok...)

And that's it.
That's that entire case from that big #602 post, which is probably the worst case that I've read since I started reading this game. This makes sense from scum who is pushing a main scumread based on absolutely nothing until he actually tries to sit down and bullshit a case, but it doesn't make sense from town who is active and discussing his scumread with partners who are in his ear. It's also pretty great that this is the only piece of actual motivation or reasoning he even attempts to give: the rest of his reads is just straight rhetoric (see: Kagami read).

(Yet, MS can come in and pick apart my argument and understand it while expanding on it...? Alright.)

It's also a pretty strong tell that all mollie had to say is "Nacho's town" in our game: I've never really known her to read me without interacting with me and not being interested in interacting with me in game: maybe she can say that she doesn't want to step on Eddie's toes, but even mollie whose feeling out boundaries doesn't leave me cold and alone with that non-interaction.

(I don't fucking know, but I'm going to make sure I lock horns with her and quesiton as to WHY she's saying this at this point...)

I'm posting these now so I can take a break without being afraid of losing posts. I'm sorry for going overboard in Kagami read, just got excited I had a laptop again and had a bunch of overambitious ideas I had to curb so people actually read my shit.

Bold and in red.

Nacho: singer wanted me to ask you who do you think compromised from the GI wagon and why you think they did so on Hoopla instead of Kagami?

Eddie/Kagami both came over from the GI wagon on Hoopla instead of Kagami to save Kagami. They both came over at pretty much the same time, and they both used ABR asking them over to the wagon as an excuse to join it.

Wrong. Hoopla was FUCKING useless by all rights/counts, and GI was NOT getting traction for lynch and wasn't going to get lynched that day, no matter how bad I wanted and and still do. Best to utilize my vote in 1 of my 4 reads who I thought was scum. Was I wrong in the end on Hoopla being scum? Yes. I admit that. However, we can still bounce back.

Most of the reasoning behind my scumread of Eddie had to do with the way he jumped over GI to defend Sotty, who I am scumreading. I’m still not over that I just came out of a game with Eddie where he actually claimed to be a member of the scum faction being town (more awkwardly, a town member of the scum faction), so in part I’m still wary whether his play here was just bad or scum.

Town still won that game, I went over so many damn posts explaining what the hell my claim was till someone finally understood it. I know I fucked up there, here I can't exactly fuck up because vanilla townie doesn't get more basic than that.

@Sotty, scum reading Metal.... Are you high???

So basically... we're not getting a scum lynch today? Lets poll the scum and ask them how they're feeling about this!

Votecount 2.5

Seraphim (1) - Sotty7

Not Voting (3) - EddieFenix, Kagami, Seraphim

Yep, big bowl of popcorn and watching the action in their thread.

You're funny.

If nacho is scum we would need most of the town to lynch him, scum won't bus. This is exactly what's going on.


It is also fun to observe that you belong to the group of {not voting nacho} people!

Considering voting Nacho in all honesty.

[Metal Sonic]

Hey Eddie do you want to slam more of wgeurts posts so I can focus more time on investigating nacho recent walls tia

[ZZZX]

OK I believe we should instate a system.
Whoever doesn't follow the town block is scum and must be lynched.

Because this is getting ridiculous with half of the players doing nothing.

[Metal Sonic]

I agree with the general idea of the plan.

Unanimous consensus must be reached before we can proceed. So if ABR agrees we can set up the policy

[Albert B. Rampage]

I simply want people to follow our votes right now. It's amazing how little attention Nachomamma is getting.

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with the general idea of the plan.

Unanimous consensus must be reached before we can proceed. So if ABR agrees we can set up the policy

You two are a terrible priviledged minority.

[quadz08]

Votecount 2.6

Kagami (4) - GreyICE, Nachomamma8, Zar, wgeurts
Nachomamma8 (3) - Albert B. Rampage, ZZZX, Metal Sonic
Seraphim (1) - Sotty7

Not Voting (3) - EddieFenix, Kagami, Seraphim

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

GreyICE is V/LA through 4/11.

Deadline is 4/18 at 6 PM Eastern, which is in (expired on 2015-04-18 18:00:00).[/color][/b