13p Normal [TM2015]

[Trojan Horse]

I know we're not supposed to outguess the mod, but if bodyguard is such a bad role, do you really think it would've been used in Team Mafia? I doubt it.

The rest of your post is fine, (and I cannot speak to the popularity of the bodyguard role; I have no idea)

But this line looks like the purpose of this is to discredit jason's claim based on the fact that pie's opinion is that bodyguards are bad and therefore mods wouldn't include it.

My primary reasons why I don't believe jason's claim (besides his general scuminess) are that the claim is not confirmable, and the claim is not likely to be counterclaimed, hence it's a safe claim. As for mods not including it; that was another reason, but a less important one.

Actually, Tammy has just chimed in and pointed out previous normals she played in that had bodyguards. So I guess that part of my argument doesn't hold water. Fair enough. (Like I said, my ignorance of site meta is a disadvantage here.)

Tammy also thinks that Jason is town. Meh.

While I'm looking over this last page or two, one question: Thor, what happens if you hide behind scum? I know what the answer is for a "standard" hider; I just want to make sure.

[Fenchurch]

I'm torn. CES thinks Thor is still the best lynch, and I can understand why, the claim itself seems scummy to me, and I now feel more keenly the problem with never lynching claims. But...

Patrick thinks it's worth looking for an alternate lynch e.g. sthar or Mala. I'd probably have preferred Mala but I don't like lynching when she's V/LA, so:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: sthar

Thor, just to double-check, are you saying that if you and Jason both go into N1, you'll hide behind him, then if you die we'll know Jason is scum? If so I am okay with this plan. If at least one of you is town then we stand to gain information from that. Worst case scenarios are either both are scum (but I feel this could be analysed based on play and interactions) or both town (scum could gain two kills, but we benefit from not wasting mislynches on them).

He also points out that it's no longer on the Normal whitelist

Why does this part matter?

He says that most Normal games use only the whitelisted roles, that Nexus is part of the Normal Review Group, and he thinks that Nexus would be more likely to put together a 'typical' Normal game. It's not an iron-clad thing to me, but it's another factor in one of the claims seeming better than the other.

[SleepyKrew]

He says that most Normal games use only the whitelisted roles, that Nexus is part of the Normal Review Group, and he thinks that Nexus would be more likely to put together a 'typical' Normal game.

It was still whitelisted when this setup was designed though. Well, I guess the NRG could've made that decision a while before it was announced.

[Trojan Horse]

Bodyguard is a harder fakeclaim to maintain as there are likely to be points in the game where he'd be expected to die. Whereas CES thinks hider is a 'fashionable fake claim' for scum, in part because it's not hard to justify your continued survival as one.

Strange. I would've thought a hider claim would be harder to maintain, because as long as the claimed-hider-scum is alive, he has to act as a cop of sorts.

[Egg]

Skimmed a little. Saw Thor's claim. Still strongly prefer a Jason lynch to Thor. Should have some time to catch up tomorrow.

Hider is semi confirmable over time though. Bodyguard kind of is to an extent, but only if Jason either dies or fails to protect an obvious target. But pre-claim, Jason's play definitely was more lynch worthy than Thor's. *shrug*. I don't feel great about a new wagon popping up and getting yet another power role claim and I still think Jason is scum anyway.

[Fenchurch]

It was still whitelisted when this setup was designed though. Well, I guess the NRG could've made that decision a while before it was announced.

Yes to the second bit, and he says Nexus would know it had fallen out of favour. I still am not ain't its not possible, though.

Strange. I would've thought a hider claim would be harder to maintain, because as long as the claimed-hider-scum is alive, he has to act as a cop of sorts.

Is making up results that damaging to a scum game? I acknowledged that it has some downsides, but as scum he can make up results that suit him and swing the game. To me the main issue with a Hider claim is that it doesn't have the same short life-expectancy of a claimed Cop or Bodyguard.

Hider is semi confirmable over time though. Bodyguard kind of is to an extent, but only if Jason either dies or fails to protect an obvious target. But pre-claim, Jason's play definitely was more lynch worthy than Thor's. *shrug*. I don't feel great about a new wagon popping up and getting yet another power role claim and I still think Jason is scum anyway.

I agree with all these things, but I nevertheless think that both claims if town have the potential to confirm themselves and/or give us information even after a single night, and would prefer to allow for this opportunity first.

Who would be your next choice for lynch?

[Egg]

Boon

[SleepyKrew]

VOTE: Trojan
Words later.

[jasonT1981]

I think it might be beneficial to ask the mod if we could have a slight deadline extension. Anyone else think this is a good idea?

[SleepyKrew]

I don't see why he'd grant it, but knock yourself out.

[SleepyKrew]

SK - while not responding directly to you on this, I have addressed it a few times already.

Can you show me where

[Malakittens]

I'm torn. CES thinks Thor is still the best lynch, and I can understand why, the claim itself seems scummy to me, and I now feel more keenly the problem with never lynching claims. But...

Patrick thinks it's worth looking for an alternate lynch e.g. sthar or Mala. I'd probably have preferred Mala but I don't like lynching when she's V/LA, so:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: sthar

Thor, just to double-check, are you saying that if you and Jason both go into N1, you'll hide behind him, then if you die we'll know Jason is scum? If so I am okay with this plan. If at least one of you is town then we stand to gain information from that. Worst case scenarios are either both are scum (but I feel this could be analysed based on play and interactions) or both town (scum could gain two kills, but we benefit from not wasting mislynches on them).

He also points out that it's no longer on the Normal whitelist

Why does this part matter?

He says that most Normal games use only the whitelisted roles, that Nexus is part of the Normal Review Group, and he thinks that Nexus would be more likely to put together a 'typical' Normal game. It's not an iron-clad thing to me, but it's another factor in one of the claims seeming better than the other.

I'm not VLA anymore so if you want to push my lynch; I'd look forward to a case that doesn't relate to wicked and actually had some substance of this game so I can try to refute the case on me.

[jasonT1981]

SK - while not responding directly to you on this, I have addressed it a few times already.

Can you show me where

Take a look through my posts... if you were reading you would see.

I'm off to bed - so I will reply properly in the morning if you haven't seen it by then.

@Mod - can we get a deadline extension, please?

[Trojan Horse]

VOTE: Trojan
Words later.

Not too much later, I hope. Monday is my long work day, and Tuesday is the deadline. (I really doubt we're going to get an extension.)

[DeltaWave]

Bodyguard is a harder fakeclaim to maintain as there are likely to be points in the game where he'd be expected to die. Whereas CES thinks hider is a 'fashionable fake claim' for scum, in part because it's not hard to justify your continued survival as one.

Strange. I would've thought a hider claim would be harder to maintain, because as long as the claimed-hider-scum is alive, he has to act as a cop of sorts.

That would be easy for scum to pull off since they know who is town and who is scum. Hider is actually a great fake claim. (But I'm undecided as to whether Thor is lying or not.)

[Egg]

And how am I supposed to know that your read is wavering? Am I a mind reader? 

You could read my posts. I gave all of my reads and my guess at a scum team didn't include you. I gave a list of players I wasn't sure about and want to look closer at and you were on it. But yeah if you can read minds, that probably would work better than just reading. It would show that my reads are genuine, so I won't be wearing any tin foil hats. If you can read everyone else's minds, this game could be over pretty quickly if you are town.

This is a vote for a low-hanging fruit wagon.

Nah. Boon had two votes (I think) at the time. If I was mindlessly wagoning, I'd have voted Jason around Page 3 and parked there all day. Voting you and later Boon doesn't really support your theory.

If Jason flips town, I don't like Trojan's reaction to the claim. I don't mean the fact that he doesn't believe the claim. That's fine and I'm actually with him on that. But something about his push feels fake. Like he's trying to hard and not at all open to maybe being wrong.

The fact that after a protective claim, there has been 0 unvotes HEAVILY implies this wagon is scum driven and want to see it through. Town would, at least in some way be doubting their reads. In fact, it has made three people even more determined to see it through. (Thor, Horse and SK

Not entirely true. Some people are MORE likely to back off of a power role claim as scum. It looks better. They can play the role of the careful townie. They can jump on those who don't back off. And they can try to out more claims.

Fenchurch, you don't have a single scum read?!?

Want to make a note here as I believe you have this backwards- surely if I was going to claim something, as scum, it would make more sense to claim something that WOULD be countered to out a more powerful role?

No. If you're scum, that claim is meant to stop your lynch. But even if we go with what you are saying, a doc claim would effectively be a counterclaim so even if you were going for a counterclaim, that's not a terrible choice.

So. If Thor is hiding behind Jason, that immediately sorts the bodyguard claim IF Thor is town.
-Town Thor and scum Jason means they both die
-Town Thor and town Jason means Thor tells us Jason is town. We can decide later.
OR Jason protects successfully and dies. Still sorted
-Scum Thor means all of this is useless.

I personally think Thor is town. If he's not, he'll have to either bus or claim an innocent on a buddy at some point which helps town anyway. But basically, I trust him to sort Jason for us and we don't have to risk lynching a power role that way.

Unvote, Vote Boon

We need a flashwagon. Everyone not voting needs to change this immediately. If people don't like Boon for today, I'll compromise but this is where I want us to lynch.

[Nexus]

SK - while not responding directly to you on this, I have addressed it a few times already.

Can you show me where

Take a look through my posts... if you were reading you would see.

I'm off to bed - so I will reply properly in the morning if you haven't seen it by then.

@Mod - can we get a deadline extension, please?

No. There is no need for a deadline extension.

[SleepyKrew]

@Mod
Can we get countdowns to deadline in VCs? tia

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.14:

jasonT1981 (5)-

Thor665, Trojan Horse,

Thor665(4)-

pieguyn, sthar8,

Save the Dragons (1)-

DeltaWave

Trojan Horse (1)-

Boonskiies, SleepyKrew

Fenchurch (1)-

Malakittens

sthar8 (1)-

Fenchurch

Boonskiies (1)-

Egg

Not Voting (1)-

Micc, jasonT1981, Save The Dragons,

The deadline is at 6pm on Tuesday 14th April 2015. (expired on 2015-04-14 13:00:00). With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Thor665 is v/la until 15th April
Fenchurch is semi-v/la until 18th April.

[Egg]

Unvote, Vote Trojan

[DeltaWave]

UNVOTE: std
VOTE: boon

Why is this not happening egg?

[pieguyn]

it is true that bodyguard is a much harder fakeclaim to maintain as scum than hider

hider is actually really easy to get away with as scum - and actually doesn't give town any info at all. it sets up a lot of WIFOM re: whether you clear a partner or not and can just as easily be used to fake a guilty sometime down the road.

I continue to believe Thor is likely scum and the best lynch right now.

[pieguyn]

although now that I say that, I'm OK with Thor hiding behind jason tonight given both of them being scum here would be completely ridiculous.

vote: sthar

I don't feel optimistic about this, but eh. the only thing I have against it is that I don't think he's scum with Thor -.-

[pieguyn]

so

quick search through all mini games Nexus modded shows he's never used a hider before (unless I'm just blatantly missing it). if he put one here, it's the first time he's done it. I don't know how unreasonable this is given he's also used stuff like super-saint, global-roleblocking IC, and siblings, though.

[pieguyn]

I'm actually really not happy with Egg on reread. I'm seeing a lot of safe stances, leading questions based around past posts (which I don't like bc stuff like that usually winds up being irrelevant by the time you catch up) and it feels more like he's just trying to go with the flow of the game as opposed to producing relevant content.

the majority of the game, he pushes both Boon and jason as scum and outright claims they might be bussing. I don't buy this at all. it feels more like he's trying to take advantage of the massive shitstorm that was going on the whole time by trying to push one of them as scum.

Boon, my team wants to know some of your reads. They feel you are playing to your scum meta and they don't like that you defended yourself with self meta.
...
Boon, I kind of agree with my team here. You seem to overdo the "I'm a VI" thing as scum and just kind of roll with it as town. Here, I feel like you are overdoing it.

Boon, Cheet and Tier said your stuff about telling everyone you hammer your strongest town read and stuff is an attempt to look like VI. Not sure why you think I said they know more than I do about your meta? I'm relaying what they said and I asked you what they wanted me to ask you.

here you're claiming you agree with the meta read on Boon. then here

Based on Page 10, I think at least one of Boon/Jason is scum. I don't like how Boon came in all "lol I'm so bad" and Jason seems to have made up his mind far too early that Boon is obvscum. I could see it being a bus. But at the very least, one of these guys is scum.

you call jason scum for calling Boon obvious scum "too early", and this is the first reason you had for jason being scum. the problem I have with this is:

1. jason was pushing Boon ever since early game (160). what makes "page 10" "far too early" for this when jason was pushing him for a good portion of the game up until this point?
2. why the hell is jason making up his mind that Boon is obvious scum indicative of him being scum when you share his scum read on Boon? your angle here essentially amounts to calling jason scum entirely for the strength of his read, which is an actual playstyle-related reason.

I get the feeling Boon is intentionally avoiding voting Delta at the bottom of Page 14. Top of the next page doesn't convince me otherwise.

this is referring to 346 ~ 354. why exactly do you have a problem with Boon not voting Delta here? there's nothing scummy about it and I feel like this is just you stretching for an angle to comment on.

I personally think Thor is town. If he's not, he'll have to either bus or claim an innocent on a buddy at some point which helps town anyway. But basically, I trust him to sort Jason for us and we don't have to risk lynching a power role that way.

what makes you think Thor is town, given everything you've posted up to this point indicates you're suspicious of him?

I also don't believe you really think him claiming an inno on a buddy at whatever point helps town (it doesn't, it just opens the door for a shitton of WIFOM) and I don't believe you believe that last sentence given you just said here

I don't feel great about a new wagon popping up and getting yet another power role claim and I still think Jason is scum anyway.

you don't want a new wagon popping up after seeing Thor's claim - it makes me think this post was just a bullshit throwaway reason for throwing suspicion at jason's claim.

the last point in particular has me really paranoid here. I'm seeing a lot of weak questions directed to Thor (it's pretty apparent if you skim through it), but he never follows through with any of them and instead calls him town near the end of the day, despite not stating any reason at all for town reading read him before. I realize it's shit to point out potential associatives before flips, but regardless, this is more a point towards Egg scum either way.

---

The real suggestion is keeping him alive up until massclaim time/another defensive role, yeah?

yes

and part of the reason you're scum is because town-you would realize how fucking basic this is instead of ignoring it

You're ignoring the more pertinent information I discussed with you to debate meaningless gak.

this post also comes off disingenuous as fuck. he's essentially attempting to discredit my argument just because "lol you ignored the rest of my wall" - especially when what he's saying isn't even true, the rest was just all specifics re: jason and it's theoretically sound to not lynch jason

regardless

of what your read on him is after bodyguard claim.