Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Gammagooey]

Also the people im referring to I guess are cdb and ut, I just dont remember seeing anything from them about esp aside from 'yeah sure lynching him is fine'

[Titus]

Titus, I think that you'll find the accussation that I have a larger than I should do amount of posts that are flat defense is kinda offset by both the facts that I am the only wagon, and that I have actually been posting in regards to other things.

If you had your town play, I would not be bothered as much.

[Espeonage]

I don't have a town play.

[Untrod Tripod]

Also the people im referring to I guess are cdb and ut, I just dont remember seeing anything from them about esp aside from 'yeah sure lynching him is fine'

I think he's annoying and it's page fucking 94 I want the game to get on there's too much informationless posting and BS

that's good enough for me

I'm tired of reading his posts

[fferyllt]

@ff I just dont think the token argument is worth much of anything compared to his actual play.

Which would be a pretty cool refutal if that were the sum total of my argument.

Your comment seemed pretty out of the blue coming in the midst of a discussion between espe and me, given I was the only one who had stepped up to the plate to answer DV's question so far. It's like you're refuting an argument that's not being advanced atm.

[fferyllt]

I completely fail to see why people actually think esp is going to flip scum aside from "oh mannn that VT claim and comments about detecting was bad play and could have been a scum gambit" while ignoring the rest of his actual play.

Also the people im referring to I guess are cdb and ut, I just dont remember seeing anything from them about esp aside from 'yeah sure lynching him is fine'

I don't remember them saying stuff about the VT claim and comments about detecting, and it looks like you're actually complaining about them not making arguments for his lynch.

[fferyllt]

yea, iso/ctl-f isn't turning up any obvious about the VT or espe's comments about detecting.

[Gammagooey]

i'm extrapolating maybe unfairly for other players

but i really don't see why several people are on this wagon

Also the people im referring to I guess are cdb and ut, I just dont remember seeing anything from them about esp aside from 'yeah sure lynching him is fine'

I think he's annoying and it's page fucking 94 I want the game to get on there's too much informationless posting and BS

that's good enough for me

I'm tired of reading his posts

this is the laziest fucking garbage.
what's your opinion on singer's play and let's say cheetory and GuyInFreezer's too

[fferyllt]

You don't see why they're on the wagon so you make up reasons?

[Gammagooey]

i'm trying to get in the mindset of the people voting him for *MYSTERIES* and make them not go with their immediate gut instinct of 'well this could be coming from scum' just because it's a possibility when there are a thousand thousand other possibilities of scummy behavior but this one in particular sticks out to them.

[Titus]

Gamma, it's day fucking one. No one is going to have an iron clad case. It's not a mystery when we tell you why we are voting for Espy. You may not comprehend why the votes based on logic but the reasons are not a mystry

Espy, I do not believe you.

[Untrod Tripod]

this is the laziest fucking garbage.
what's your opinion on singer's play and let's say cheetory and GuyInFreezer's too

gamma plz

[Gammagooey]

I am not talking about you and your 400 posts of splattered words about everything that has happened in the entire game

this is me trying to get the people that are voting esp for ?????, which includes UT and mastin and if my memory is correct CDB, to re-evaluate what the hell they're doing and why.

this is the laziest fucking garbage.
what's your opinion on singer's play and let's say cheetory and GuyInFreezer's too

gamma plz

no.

it's absolute garbage. I know this game is a shitshow to read through and evaluate, but TRY to read through the other players and actually hunt for scum instead of lazily hopping on esp's wagon when I don't see any reason why his ACTUAL PLAY IN THIS GAME, not token bullshit and not floaty gambit possibilities, is more likely coming from a scum mindset than a town one.

[Cheetory6]

So Gamma, let me get this straight.
You're getting on people's cases for voting Espe for what amounts to them feeling like what he's doing could be scummy.
Isn't that ridiculous given that your reason for townreading him is feeling like what he did was townie at one point?
Tell me what the difference is between an Espe push and an ActionDan push then and why you're not championing his cause as well.

Let me pitch why I think Espe is scum right now:
i) I'm expecting some tryhard bullshit from scum this game. Trying really hard to get towntelled for behavior seems like something that scum would do in Team Mafia, especially in this game. Do you agree or disagree?
ii) Espeonage has been sitting on an empty Marquis vote without pushing it or elaborating on it beyond just defending TTH's case there. It feels like empty play and there's no weight behind anything he's done there beyond just sheeping TTH. It reads super hard as active coasting to me.
iii) He slung mud at singersigner as the momentum started to build there without changing his vote which reads to me as setup for joining the wagon there without looking like bandwagoning later. "Look at how I talked about it earlier, I'm not just opportunistically changing votes now!"

I'm sure other people have good reasons too. I suggest looking before blindly defending him with "everyone is pushing him because of his VT claim".

I don't agree with UT that we should be rushing this cycle and the thought that he might be scum overplaying an "I don't give a shit" character isn't unfathomable to me. If you don't like a game this big or this slow, then maybe you should switch instead of just continually complaining about it?

Honestly had no idea it was that long ago. I still don't get how people can read the case and not go, that makes a tonne of sense, I'm going to take at the very least a good hard look at Marq.

Still a work in progress?

No, no townpoints for you. And the bluster doesn't get you any either.

There's two ways you can interpret vezok's results on me. You can either think I'm a town special that wants to use my role on DV or you can think I'm scum gathering intel for a kill / some other nefarious purpose. You have a distinct and very clearly stated "not town" read on DeasVail himself, so the former conclusion should come much more naturally to you. Yet, you don't unvote and you actually go so far as to subtly push me to claim more information. Both these are scum motivated and completely inconsistent with your read on DV.

You are scum, sir.

I don't mind this case. I do mind Espe sitting on it without pushing it though.
ISOing DV and Marquis in a little bit.

[Cheetory6]

I'm going to take at the very least a good hard look at Marq.

Fucking commas. I'm dumb. That isn't what you meant q.q

[Gammagooey]

i) I'm expecting some tryhard bullshit from scum this game. Trying really hard to get towntelled for behavior seems like something that scum would do in Team Mafia, especially in this game. Do you agree or disagree?
ii) Espeonage has been sitting on an empty Marquis vote without pushing it or elaborating on it beyond just defending TTH's case there. It feels like empty play and there's no weight behind anything he's done there beyond just sheeping TTH. It reads super hard as active coasting to me.
iii) He slung mud at singersigner as the momentum started to build there without changing his vote which reads to me as setup for joining the wagon there without looking like bandwagoning later. "Look at how I talked about it earlier, I'm not just opportunistically changing votes now!"

I'm not going to have time to actually read over any of the stuff you're talking about until tomorrow night but these are my immediate thoughts on it

i)'trying to get towntelled for behavior' is the vaguest thing ever. point out individual posts where you think he did that and what exactly he was trying to get towntelled for if you think it's true. Trying to act like town in general is way different from the posts I think he's made about his opinions on Tammy that I think at minimum show legitimate confusion about why Tammy's taking everything personally, and I personally think that his thoughts on her and the timing when he tried to get the boon away from tammy is more likely to be indicative of town trying to stop what he sees as a legitimate threat to the game than scum posturing on getting a boon away from tammy when I think it was very unlikely that Tammy getting the boon would meaningfully affect scum.

ii) I think this and iii are more likely to be looking for guilt and finding something approximating it than something that is particularly likely to come from a scum mindset. Why do you think esp is more likely to be coasting the way he is as scum than town? Do you think he believes he can get away with it? Do you think he just doesn't have a better alternative? Why exactly?
iii) I personally see this as not more likely to be scum doing it for the reasons you said as it could be town just commenting on something they agree with. Why do you think the scum possibility of planning to vote singer later and setting it up now is more likely than town reacting and commenting on someone else's read?

probably going to be gone for the most part until after work tomorrow, I'm just out of time for now and doing stuff tonight. I do intend to put on some glitch mob and hash out some opinions on espeonage if other people show up tomorrow though.

[Titus]

Deadlines

Lynch 1 Warning: April 16th, 8:11 pm PST - (expired on 2015-04-16 20:11:00)

Lynch 1 Deadline: April 20th 10:11 AM PST- (expired on 2015-04-20 10:11:00)

Major Day 1 Deadline: April 25, 6:00 PM PST - (expired on 2015-04-25 20:00:00)

Daily reminder: In 2 and a half days, it's time to start consolidating.

[Cheetory6]

@Gamma, let me think about it. I keep writing up thoughts to your points and they get hardcore muddled midway through so I think I need to just read for a bit and let things sit.

[mastin2]

You're not going to strong-arm me into a townread. Sorry.

I don't need to.
What I do need is to strongarm you into dropping the scumread and ceasing ANY and all interactions that the scumread may cause. (That is, anything TTH has said to make you think a player's town/scum, and anything a player has said about TTH that has made you think they are town/scum, off of TTH being scum.)

And do me a favor, relay a four-word message to Nacho.
Just four.

Mastin. Gambit.
Target: TTTH.

See what he says after you relay that to him.

[mastin2]

I changed my mind. I don't want to lynch mastin.

No duh.
I'm a walking deadwoman. Lynching me is basically impossible. (Well, unless people go all Tales on me. )

VOTE: Bulbazak

I am never letting this go through, either.

I don't care if Bulbazak is scum, he's so town that he's town.

Mastin - If you're going to push for a TTH town read so hard that everyone who suspects her is dumb, I'll need something better than you can't respect anyone who would scum read her. I see really no in thread reason to call her town at all.

Because the whole aura of this is just wrong.

Like, maybe in a multiscum game TTH could be scum.

But in an explicitly single-faction game, with not even a serial killer?

HECK no. Everything about the wagon was just...

wrong

.
The targeting of DV is, contrary to what is being said, an extremely TOWN choice.
The wagon sucks.
And TTH is claiming a PROVABLE role given time to boot.
Something which, quite frankly, you'd have to be an absolute, utter MORON to think scum would ever fake. That's basically scum condemning themselves to have a set expiration date when their conftownness turns out to not be so conftown.

I don't need to read a single thing from their play.
Everything about TTH tells the story for me.

[mastin2]

There are problems with Bulbazack and with Mastin, but I'm going to go do something else.

Hey, Bulbazak.
Hey, TTH.
Let's invite Titus, too.

Want to make a "bloody insane townbloc" made up of people who are, apparently, well...yaknow?

[mastin2]

(If that wasn't clear, those three are basically my strongest townreads, that I also have synergy with. Tammy, for instance, is a townread that the synergy isn't there, and until Nacho gets his ass in here and relays his thoughts, ffery's not synergistic with me at all right now.)

[mastin2]

@mastin: if you are town and yoi defended scum so hard they couldn't be lynch you will feel my wrath.

And I'd willingly take it.

That won't happen, though. What WILL happen is TTH is town, and if anyone biased their other reads with her as scum reevaluates, they get a much clearer view of the game.

Never underestimate the power of a townie-who-is-thrown-in. It is, after all, how I did stuff like nail 3/4 scum in a Fire & Ice game, and nail

the entirety of the scumteam in my first post

of Underground Mafia. I did it back then, I still have it in me to do it now.

[mastin2]

What changed between these two posts wrt mastin and why are you scumreading CDB so heavily but GiF isn't even in your lynchpool if you see a similar issue with both of them?

(Because she's scum and GIF might be her partner.)

[mastin2]

it feels like the priority is on getting the point across, not in convincing someone she's right.

Btw, the basic cause for this is pretty obvious: I don't need to convince people I'm right; reputation does that for me. When I say, "I'm MASTIN", the players who play with me frequently and call me friend take note of what I'm saying. What I need to do, with their attention, then, is to convey the point of my posting, to get the message across.

It's arrogant-as-hell, yes, and I'd be the first to admit I'm likely not perfect, but again. I FEEL like I'm in the right, ESPECIALLY given the TTH-is-definitely-not-scum factor. So while I may not have all the answers. I may not have things nailed 100% down. Following me's better than following the majority of other players.

Which is one reason I'm trying to get a townbloc getting and just invited Bulb, TTH, and Titus to it: they're the people I'm currently trusting to help refine my reads (you mighta noticed that Bulb's posting on Aronis made me reconsider my townread there), in lieu of my team not keeping up with this game (can't really blame them). To be in the townbloc, you don't even need to have your thoughts match up as well as theirs do mine--All you need is some basic assumptions, those being, the members I have invited into the townbloc already are all town. (You also need to not be a scumread of mine. )