Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[singersigner]

Because you were being pretty cheeky about the whole meta thing and I don't really trust a cheeky Gamma. That, and you're calling me scum so I needed to see how wrong you're willing to be.

[Gammagooey]

Also, better question

Is that the same answer you would have given right after making this post?

Gamma that looks an awful lot like selective meta to fit your agenda. Your most recent example is three years ago, and the only scum game (meta mafia) was a grand total of 35 posts.

I know you have more recent, up-to-date, and accurate meta, so it's making me even more uncomfortable that you even negate it with "Fuuuck meta."

[Gammagooey]

That, and you're calling me scum so I needed to see how wrong you're willing to be.

the first part i didn't bother quoting is shrugs, but I don't see how ^that's related to not answering me earlier.

[singersigner]

No it's not the same answer I would've given. It's the answer I give after you asked me to make a decision.

Again, it was to prove your theory was wrong and if you continue to commit to it and not concede to your fallibility and inaccuracy, I will change my mind.

I'm not sure what your game is, but if you admittedly are not reading up on the game as much as you should, I think you should take a step back and reevaluate your real argument because it's not convincing as it is.

Preview Edit:
I didn't realize you needed a black/white answer at that point, Gamma. I was answering/responding to the best of my information/gut to figure out where your head was really at.

[Gammagooey]

I think I made it pretty clearly I wanted an answer of either yes i think you're scum or no i don't but whatever

At the time that you made 2102, what made the meta post outweigh your earlier town read on me? Did you go back and re-evaluate your earlier town read on me and decide it wasn't up to snuff comparatively, was the meta post horrifically bad to you, what exactly?

[singersigner]

I was just really surprised your experience from so long ago blinded any recent experience of me, or that you even remembered it for that matter. It felt like only something scum would try to use to their advantage because they picked up on one game that could vaguely represent something similar years later. Especially blind to the fact that you have Ffery/Nacho screaming the opposite but don't agree. If it were anyone who didn't know me better I wouldn't have found it so scummy.

It's not really my scum prerogative to antagonize the people who will fight to make me eat rope. I really don't think I could be any more town except to be in Ffery's position, but that's just me!

[singersigner]

GAMMA WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT YOUR LOGICK TRAIN SUCKS.

[Gammagooey]

it was a lot less of a logic train and more of a tiny meta pushcart imo but shrug


I think it's weird that you didn't see it as potentially coming from town too and that you spent so much effort focusing on it when it was one post that I think is kind of clear I didn't put a ton of effort into going through and researching the games or spelling out differences between them. Can you give some quick thoughts on why you were townreading me before that?

Also

@Gamma...you definitely have more recent town meta on me, which was more the point, and I honestly haven't been scum (save my most recent newbie game) since the 2012 Scummies Invitational, which was also almost two years ago. I think your statement that you hate meta but are using it as a soft support/case/whathaveyou on me is really inconsistent and self-serving.

If you had any bit of recent meta on me, I wouldn't be arguing with you. The difference in those games are circumstantially different, particularly the scum game, which is the only one I really attacked anyway.

Why did you think the scum game was the only one that you really attacked when you said earlier that me having more recent town meta on you was more the point?

[hitogoroshi]

VC 58 (Major Day 1, VC 20)

(5)

singersigner:

Aronis, Gammagooey, Bulbazak, mastin2, Titus [L-5]
(4)

Espeonage:

ChannelDelibird, vezorpiraka, Cheetory6, Untrod Tripod
(2)

TellTaleHeart:

Oversoul, Marquis

(singersigner)

(2)

Marquis:

TellTaleHeart, Espeonage
(2)

ActionDan:

DeasVail, singersigner
(1)

ChannelDelibird:

Shadoweh

(3)

Not Voting:

ActionDan, T S O, GuyInFreezer

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, April 25th, at 9PM CST.

Major Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-25 20:00:00)

CDB is V/LA until April 17th. T S O is V/LA until April 17th. Oversoul is V/LA until April 18th.

Aronis has been prodded.

[singersigner]

it was a lot less of a logic train and more of a tiny meta pushcart imo but shrug


I think it's weird that you didn't see it as potentially coming from town too and that you spent so much effort focusing on it when it was one post that I think is kind of clear I didn't put a ton of effort into going through and researching the games or spelling out differences between them. Can you give some quick thoughts on why you were townreading me before that?

Also

@Gamma...you definitely have more recent town meta on me, which was more the point, and I honestly haven't been scum (save my most recent newbie game) since the 2012 Scummies Invitational, which was also almost two years ago. I think your statement that you hate meta but are using it as a soft support/case/whathaveyou on me is really inconsistent and self-serving.

If you had any bit of recent meta on me, I wouldn't be arguing with you. The difference in those games are circumstantially different, particularly the scum game, which is the only one I really attacked anyway.

Why did you think the scum game was the only one that you really attacked when you said earlier that me having more recent town meta on you was more the point?

You caught me! You were calling me scum so I denounced the scum meta in my head while proving you should realize how town I am in the thread. Oops!

Re: town read...I like people who can articulate my thoughts better than I can, so the town read came from agreeing with your Bulb read.

I still just don't really know what the point of using my previous history with you was if you didn't mean for it to make a difference in the way people feel about me. What exactly do you disagree with about my play, again? Phone posting is haaard.

[Aronis]

:sigh:

[Aronis]

I might look at this tomorrrow. I've just been busy and haven't had time to read 20 pages.

[Gammagooey]

@singer

I really thought you were town for your push on Bulb but this is a really shallow push, even for you who falls on ~reasons~ half the time.

Plus given that it seems like you're saying you were scumreading me until basically this conversation between us (and correct that if it's wrong), I'd think that you'd reconsider your earlier townread, since given the above it was pretty strong.

Particularly after I told you the specific reasons why I linked those games in particular (the one scum game I've ever been in with you, a large theme I remembered being in with you, and another large theme Nacho was in with you).

your explanation of your townread on me is pretty : /
what in particular did you agree with, and what about it made it a strong read instead of something I could maybe potentially fake as scum?

Said it earlier but it was mostly to give some background on my read to ff and nacho, was hoping they'd look at it and think something like 'oh that read makes sense from those games', though if they also decided to change their read on you based off of it I certainly wouldn't have been sad.

Recap of why I find you scummy is coming tomorrow since it's 2am now.

-----

To Titus and other people but seriously mostly Titus:

going to sleep soon

Please try to not drown out the conversation between singer and I with tons of posts, I think it's important for other people to go over it and evaluate singer. I'll recap my opinions on singer's alignment tomorrow night since this was mostly just poking at her and trying to get useful information to come out.

[singersigner]

I wasn't scumreading you until you brought up outed meta. I know, I know, it's not your whole case! But when someone's wrong, you're going to point out where, and everything else seemed conceptual, which is really hard to argue when you respectfully disagree!

Post 1749 shows where I initially respected the direction you were taking with Bulb, but I never commented on it fully during my catchup. I'll do that on a computer tomorrow.

What about Nacho's opinion of me? Could you point out what you disagree with from him? What if they provided games to support why? How much credence would you give to them because of it, knowing 100% they're pro-town motivation.

Out of curiosity, what questions were you planning on asking if I had responded that I thought you were scum?

Also, Aronis' timing is

[Gammagooey]

Assuming your first sentence is a response to

Plus given that it seems like you're saying you were scumreading me until basically this conversation between us (and correct that if it's wrong), I'd think that you'd reconsider your earlier townread, since given the above it was pretty strong.

Particularly after I told you the specific reasons why I linked those games in particular (the one scum game I've ever been in with you, a large theme I remembered being in with you, and another large theme Nacho was in with you).

I'm not questioning what exactly made you scumread me, I think you've made it clear it was the meta post- I'm questioning why you didn't reconsider your scum read on me earlier, immediately or soon after I told you why I chose those games in particular.

I asked nacho for the specific part of empire's replace out that he thought was town, so once it gets posted I can talk about that.

questions if you said I was scum were mostly going to revolve around why you thought my meta post was particularly likely to come from scum over town and going into that, and what about it made it better than your read on me for bulba stuff earlier.

last comment on singer and I's conversation

I think it's fairly clear that I was trying to engage singer and not just call her scum by lateish into talking to her. I don't like that she continually brought up how town I should think she is despite keeping the questions fairly neutral and I think showing that I'm trying to get more information about what she's been thinking and why throughout the game.
It feels like she was trying to escape or distract from what would actually give insight into her alignment by adding in statements saying she's town/obvtown, especially given that it doesn't seem like she's putting effort into trying to actually convince me that any of them are true (aside from META META META which is probably true that she's playing fairly different from her old scum and town games regardless of her alignment), just sticking them in and hoping someone will agree with it or townread her for it.

[Gammagooey]

wait actually that wording is maybe still dumb

better version

I'm not questioning what exactly made you scumread me, I think you've made it clear it was the meta post- I'm questioning why you didn't reconsider your scum read on me ***earlier than just this conversation***, such as immediately or soon after I told you why I chose those games in particular.

[Shadoweh]

I'm proxying my vote to Nacho.

The hell I'm already doing that so you can keep your vote

First of all, Ffery is the one in the game, geez. This situation happened before, does Nacho treat this like 4-hydra mafia I wonder?
Secondly, why not both? The bigger ffery's townblock-by-force, the more weight her opinion holds. If she throws out a good case for it I'm in the mood to follow on it.

[vezokpiraka]

have you played with vezok much?

A few times. L4D was where I learned how good his reads could be, mainly based off of what Mastin said in post. I think I played at least two more times with Vezok after that, and I correctly town read him each time. His reads were also pretty good and tended to align with mine, or at least not severely clash with them. Here, I'm having a hard time getting that same feeling, and I don't know if it's just me or if there's really something missing.

In L4D you correctly identified me as town even though my reads where all over the place.
In Marvel Alliance you town read me and we synced up pretty well.
Organic chemistry had me as confirmed town so that doesn't count.
And you were scum in playing card mafia so there was no way we could sync reads.


I agree that you townread me correctly in L4D and MA.
Our reads only synced up in MA.

I really don't understand why you're trying to push this vezok-scum scenario by using meta.

[mastin2]

@Mastin - Nacho says he trusts you. But he totally, totally disagrees with your Singer read. We do not want to spend our one day on this game's earth watching our strong townreads get lynched. I think you can understand that even if we're not seeing eye to eye on who we think is town.
Let's lynch someone we both think is scum.

Okay. I'm willing to try. But that's gonna be hard, since my next-strongest scumread is DV.

Behind that I suppose is Esp, but that's not very strong at all.
By the time you get up to Dan, the fourth, it's more null than scum.

So I'm willing to not lynch singer, but...do understand my read on her isn't changing.

Also, justsayin, she's totally Viktor Jarvik.

fucking busting my ass arguing against your wagon.

See, where you see bad town, I see simply scum. That's why my read on her isn't changing.

But,

Unvote: singer

.
I do owe you this much.

[mastin2]

I will have to have a townread before trust is an option.

The deal with me not voting singer's off if you frankly DON'T have a townread on Bulb.
I trust TTH.
I trust Bulb.
I trust Titus.

And by extent, I trust both Shadow and GIF to be town.

Three in my townbloc.
Two in my maybe-townbloc-if-reads-are-compatible.
That's where I start not including you.

[mastin2]

I'm seriously considering just going ahead and full claiming since holding back really isn't really accomplishing anything and I don't really have time to respond to everything people are throwing at me, which boils down to "she isn't posting enough."

While TTH really is probably scum and her telling me my lynch pool sucks with no explanation is much appreciated

Because it contains Bulbazak, two lurkers, and a universal question mark. Three out of four of those are targets of convenience

And the fourth is a godawful read!

You also can't forget that YOU are in his suspects just outside the lynch pool, too.

Also, Anti said Quickness called and it wants Feu et Vol back. I thought that was funny since you mentioned that game.

(Incidentally, it's making no such calls about demanding its singersigner back.)

[fferyllt]

I will have to have a townread before trust is an option.

The deal with me not voting singer's off if you frankly DON'T have a townread on Bulb.
I trust TTH.
I trust Bulb.
I trust Titus.

And by extent, I trust both Shadow and GIF to be town.

Three in my townbloc.
Two in my maybe-townbloc-if-reads-are-compatible.
That's where I start not including you.

:/

My offer had an implicit agreement not to push your strong townreads and look more closely at players we maybe both can agree look like scum.

Further, I'm making an effort at reevaluation of the players we strongly disagree on.

I'm going to assume that you just aren't caught up, rather than not seeing my trajectory since I posted Nacho's response.

[mastin2]

@Mastin: I don't know if you have or not, but can you walk me through your DeasVail scum read?

Aside from TTH's rock-solid reasons?

This is Tales-DV. A DV who is doing his damnedest to look like his town self and has successfully done so in the eyes of most major players, but who is still visibly manipulating things to me. His thoughts simply do not look organic. At all. They're meant to look good. They aren't ACTUALLY good.

[mastin2]

@Mastin: I don't know if you have or not, but can you walk me through your DeasVail scum read?

Aside from TTH's rock-solid reasons?

This is Tales-DV. A DV who is doing his damnedest to look like his town self and has successfully done so in the eyes of most major players, but who is still visibly manipulating things to me. His thoughts simply do not look organic. At all. They're meant to look good. They aren't ACTUALLY good.

I thought of it.
The word.
THE word.

It works for describing both DV's play and singer's play.

Their play is cheeky.
That's the word that describes what I see. I don't see real enthusiasm. I see cheekiness.

[DeasVail]

Ffery, if you want to try and sync up more then I'm very happy to discuss things. I've just gotten busier lately and Ceph is not following the game as closely as he was. This is absolutely not his fault, as I have been urging my team to not feel like they need to read along. I've been having enough trouble keeping up with the game myself! To be completely honest though, I have felt a bit frustrated, partly because of my own reads diverging from yours (and those of others) in some ways, and partly also because often I've asked you questions that aren't answered. Whether this is due to them simply not being seen or a strategic withholding of thoughts, I'm not sure, and there are probably ways in which I have been uncooperative, but I would appreciate more engagement during the time that you/your team are here.

Just two things because I was having a shitattack in our PT

What was the point of booning Vezok?
Why is UT getting away with so much scummy shit?

For me it's because all evidence points the fact that he doesn't care what people think of him.

I'd actually really like to needle Mastin's pride a bit. The more sure she is that she's right about me being scum, the scummier I think she is for boasting about how good she is. Don't take it personally, though. Scum don't really have a choice but to be confident with a town that's imploding because then something might not go their way.

I think she's town with an above-average-for-me amount of confidence for what it's worth.

I don't need to give logic on TTH being town.
She is.
I'm saying she is.

How does the confidence in TTH being town compare to the confidence in me being scum. More confident, less confident, about the same?

Maybe it's confbias but singer there really wante control there and Singer looks pissed because she's not in control here.

@Singer, If you intended to work with anyone you'd be reaching out, complaining less, and moving your vote off your vanity wagon.

I don't actually remember what your read of me is, but if you think I'm town, then you might want to reconsider your read on Singer because I'm probably one of the most passive people you could meet and

I'm

getting frustrated by how out-of-control of the game I feel right now. I also see nothing wrong with being on a vanity wagon if all the other wagons suck, and reaching out and not-complaining are hard things to do that I probably wouldn't be bothering with if this was a non-team mafia game. It's why being a vig is so appealing. You have control and little need to reach out and it's great! If you think I'm scum too then just assume I'm white-knighting a townie or something.

Oversoul/Marquis/TSO/Vezok/DV

With me!

I appreciate this post, and while I'm less closed to lynching TTH than I was before I was last caught up on the game, I still would prefer not to lynch her. I see that you've joined me on ActionDan now though which I think is really cool.

@GIF: Short version: The way she treated Empire's replace in does not come from scum. She examined it from a point of trying to figure out the game, which comes from town.

Ok, the thing is that I probably wouldn't be so concerned about her if it weren't for the way she treated Empire's replace-in. Her stances on the slot have all felt kind of wrong to me, with her wanting to lynch Zar, getting very hands-off when it came to Empire and not seeming to want him lynched, and then when singer replaced in BAM! suddenly the slot is lynchable again! It seems to me a lot like scum changing their read based on how lynchable the person representing it is (singer and zar being a lot more lynchable than Empire imo) rather than a natural progression of read from town. I know you're saying you have reason beyond this to consider her town, but I wouldn't be opposed to you convincing me I'm wrong here.

I really liked his early game, and whenever he posts, I still get the same sort of warm fuzzies. I just have a hard time seeing that sort of thought process coming from scum. His activity is atrocious, but it always is, and that's not a reason to scumread him.

This is weird coming from you considering your criticism of me for something similar.

More details on this and updates:
I said it was a terrible lynch pool because it fits the profile for who scum would put in their lynchpool. There's two definite lurkers in there that's a pretty safe bet to push on: ActionDan and Aronis. They've both already demonstrated that they probably won't make much of an effort to defend themselves and no one can really justify a town read on either of them, barring role related information. GiF arguably fits into the "lurker" category too, but only in the sense that he's fairly low profile, not really making waves so far (not necessarily for lack of trying), and he's a question mark on a few other people's lists. ffery comes to mind as one of those people. This is also a pretty safe push. I refer to these as "safe pushes" simply because reasons for voting them aren't really there. Even with scum lurkers, those reasons usually exist and can be articulated, but DV hasn't really made an attempt to convincingly do so. Bulbazak, of course, has to make an appearance since DV was pushing him earlier. Even though the vote on ActionDan hasn't ever progressed past the "vanity" stage, the vote stays there even though a vote on Bulbazak (which is much more substantiated and much less neglected) would have the same impact on the overall vote count. So why is the vote on ActionDan?

tl;dr: On the surface, this lynch pool looks like a plausible team but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny and the vote placement doesn't match real estate allocation in the DV's posts.

My lynch pool isn't what I think the team is, and I've found that my scumhunting has much improved since I've stopped pretending to have more reasons than I actually do for people who I think are scum.

In any case, assuming all of the PRs also have to figure out signs before actioning

This isn't the best assumption to make fwiw.

-

This is a note to myself that I haven't finished reading the last page.

I wish I could say more about why I'm voting for ActionDan, but what it comes down to is that he's one of those people that I'd vig as a town vig, or shoot as an SK if I were aiming for mafia. This isn't to say that I'm right, but for every other player I've thought of a decent reason why I don't want to lynch them (still not sure if I have for Aronis or not), and this is exactly what I did in the games where I could shoot people, with no pressure to actually try and say why my read is the way it is. I feel uncomfortable saying this because I have what I see as justified low confidence in my abilities, and less confidence in my ability to scumread than townread, but I would really be quite happy if people joined me on ActionDan, especially since I really don't like the current leading wagons.