Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Oversoul]

Gamma/ffery or whoever asked, I am starting from my own reads
I have finals today through next week which is why I am being very absent

I do think Singer is town and wonder why so many people think otherwise given Empire and Singer's posts.

Still haven't read Espeonage but feel less inclined to go there over my initial gut scum reads

[Gammagooey]

Oh @singer one more thing

What about my questioning of you and forcing you to say I'm either town or scum do you think I'd be unlikely to fake or do as scum?

also, have some vaguely thematic pictures and wubz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkvOLB7Yzhs

[fferyllt]

Ffery, if you want to try and sync up more then I'm very happy to discuss things. I've just gotten busier lately and Ceph is not following the game as closely as he was. This is absolutely not his fault, as I have been urging my team to not feel like they need to read along. I've been having enough trouble keeping up with the game myself! To be completely honest though, I have felt a bit frustrated, partly because of my own reads diverging from yours (and those of others) in some ways, and partly also because often I've asked you questions that aren't answered. Whether this is due to them simply not being seen or a strategic withholding of thoughts, I'm not sure, and there are probably ways in which I have been uncooperative, but I would appreciate more engagement during the time that you/your team are here.

I'm getting asked the same or very similar questions by several players. I don't always respond to every single one. Stuff that I haven't answered is pending my research and input from my team. I was actually pretty close to posting a reads list yesterday, but am going back through parts of it per a commitment to understand what drives the differences in Mastin's and my reads. Which isn't easy due to the huge differences in how we approach the game. We almost never have similar reads lists on day 1. As the game progresses and there's more data, we sometimes wind up close to the same page. The reasons for the initial differences (our approaches) aren't trivial.

[hitogoroshi]

VC 59 (Major Day 1, VC 21)

(4)

singersigner:

Aronis, Gammagooey, Bulbazak, Titus

(mastin2)

[L-6]
(4)

Espeonage:

ChannelDelibird, vezorpiraka, Cheetory6, Untrod Tripod [L-6]
(2)

TellTaleHeart:

Oversoul, Marquis
(2)

Marquis:

TellTaleHeart, Espeonage
(2)

ActionDan:

DeasVail, singersigner
(1)

ChannelDelibird:

Shadoweh

(3)

Not Voting:

ActionDan, T S O, GuyInFreezer, mastin2

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, April 25th, at 9PM CST.

Major Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-25 20:00:00)

CDB is V/LA until April 17th. T S O is V/LA until April 17th. Oversoul is V/LA until April 18th.

[fferyllt]

have you played with vezok much?

A few times. L4D was where I learned how good his reads could be, mainly based off of what Mastin said in post. I think I played at least two more times with Vezok after that, and I correctly town read him each time. His reads were also pretty good and tended to align with mine, or at least not severely clash with them. Here, I'm having a hard time getting that same feeling, and I don't know if it's just me or if there's really something missing.

@Bulba: Get off your high horse on singer.

Huh?

Think about ArcAngel, greyice and serra.

What about them?

The reason I asked this question was because although I've played a few games with vezok I have never really understood what drives his reads and stances. his play always looks chaotic to me and his read switches often feel weird to me. I've seen him switch stance on a player apparently solely because the player scumreads someone he's townreading - and he has decided is all but conftown. And those switches often don't last - I think he uses those sorts of switcbes in his stance as a sort of strong-arm tool (that mostly gets ignored, but w/e).

Anyway, I don't read him by how much I agree with him or how much sense I think he's making. It's more about his interactions with/for his townreads.

[ActionDan]

I come with analysis!

Specifically on Espeonage.

nah I'm not and I can even proves it like right now.

1. If I was scum I'm fairly sure I would have noticed the game had started.
2. I actually spent token(s) on making myself town because I want to win TM.
3. The only time I don't choose scum when given a choice is when I really want to win or need to do it to eradicate choice meta. Both of those need me to be town.
I'm baning with OMGUS as soon as I find out who it was.

None of this proves anything. Even taking it at face value, how would "eradicating choice meta" be a priority in a game Espe "really wants to win"? For that matter, why would really wanting to win be something that varies significantly across games. We all play to win regardless anyway, so in that endeavor, choosing town would be the right thing to do anyway. I realize this is mostly tongue in cheek but it factors in to responses/posts later in the game and I feel compelled to gut it.

TSO, I asked you to read my posts because I felt you were misunderstanding me and I was repeating myself.

You think I lie for no reason???

The booze is for me tonight to try to make sense of this.

@DV, He asks questions, follows through on the answers and articulates his positions well. This is town Bulba.

That sounds like null bulba. Pls don't declare things that aren't true.

hella yeah this game is gonna be easy.

Ok well I don't get an easy bane vote then.

But you're lies about bulba stand.

The point is that he can(TM).

And you gonna tell me that someone with established tonal tells that drew scum in TM isn't going to fabricate posts carefully? That's just not respecting Team Mafia.

Anyone can fabricate anything if they put their mind to it. But, Titus listed traits that I would presuppose would be more likely to be associated with Bulba town as opposed to her other experience of him as a scum lurker. Thus it becomes more probable that he's town (at least to her [it is far wiser to examine the content of someone's arguments/posts in any case whether carefully constructed or disjointed however]).

It's not conftown but I feel really good about Bulba.

Ok see, that is much better, well done.

For example, in a game where I have read half a page, you're the closest thing to a scum read.

I didn't call you scum, you need reading comprehension.

The point I was trying to make is that you can spout a read but that doesn't mean it's right.

I'm going to give this the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't an outright slip, but there's no point that's being made here. people can spout reads with or without the added bonus of reasons - which titus gave - to add and progress the gamestate (which means people being able to read them or adding to the volume of posts to discuss or what have you), you just happen to disagree with it. Also later on you question Tammy about having a problem with Mastin "voicing a town read" on TTH and believe me the strength of that read is stronger than here so this lesson is rather hypocritical.

Tammy what part of voicing a townread is ever bad for town?

---

Hey Titus. Quick question.

Why is buddying of any importance when there has been no flip yet?

Hey Titus. Quick question.

Why is buddying of any importance when there has been no flip yet?

Because we like people who like us. So scum can buddy by being likable.

@DV, What am I ingoring?

Town can also buddy so shit gets done. Come back after a flip.

pedit: LOL

This dialogue with Titus is quickly becoming needless pestering. It stops here but it's absolutely bereft of purpose. This exchange feels more like a fabrication of developing a scumread than a conversation.

Ok so at the end of page 23, I feel that Tammy is getting a bit agitated where she doesn't need to be. I mainly think her arguments are barking up the wrong tree and the excepts (I have yet to follow up on reading then in context) seem to be more of deflection over anything, which seems weird and Zar appears to be arguing the tree rather than the forest which is usually a sign of scum so I'm leaning towards voting.

@Red Wine Talk: That is the most fun game I have even played in and I was one of the first people dead. Anyone looking to learn how to do scum theater needs to read that game. I doubt there will be another example of how to both flail, and clear yourself from that.

If it makes you feel better I am cautiously nullscum on Tammy. She is playing how I have seen her play as non hydra scum but I don't want to push it off such a small sample size as I have.

I will say that I am not ok with Tammy boon for the moment.

And now I want to ignore TamPire.

I already covered the your slot. Mostly deflection and I Tammy's wall felt very similar to the way she went about attacking me in Red Wine which means that she is probably either right or scum with you.

I will not clarify the Tammy pings.

If I'm getting this right suspicion is accruing due to a perceived similarity between tammy's scum theater in one game and play/walls in this one. And in that event, and considering the statement that tammy is either scum or "right", why would Espe choose to ignore the Empire part of "TamPire". That should be the person he should be looking into the hardest. Instead we're going to see an obsession with Tammy.

Hey Tammy, you know how you were during like the mid part of Unbalanced 2.

This is me telling you, you need to breathe.

Also btw, your explanation of why you attacked me in Red Wine is equatable to why I think you're attacking here as was picked up by Empire.

Ok got some pedits.

Why are you trying to calm me down if you think I'm scum? Wouldn't I be faking my agitation in that case?

I have no idea what you mean by "as picked up by empire".

Dude, I don't know if you are scum. If you are town then there is no way I want to sever ties with you. This is going to be a long game, and we're going to need to be working together at some point over the course of this.

On that note, it's one of the reasons I was being iffy about my nullscum read on Tammy. I don't actually think I can read Tammy except in cases where she is being very town in her own way which isn't happening here.

It should be noted that by his own admission he can't definitely read Tammy on meta and tone alone except to conclude he can't townread her. Which is fine, that kind of distinction via meta and tone is something I do and most people do regularly.

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

See Tammy, the thing is that mollie has played with scum you very recently, I have a rapport with mollie as of recent and I don't have a good rapport with the confirmed town.

Now with that out of the way.

I'm getting more and more happy in my read that you're scum. Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh. Your tone here doesn't read to me like the frustrated got irl stuff tone as far as I can tell, which is about the only explanation I have for the amount of scumminess I am feeling from your posts. And even if that is the reasoning for your tone it still doesn't mean you're town, it takes it to null, at most. I don't have the most experience with you but I'm going off what I do have. And your responses to people here for the most part aren't looking town.

I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Vote: Tammy

gots a preedit come up

Logically, everything about this post is alarming. That same meta that was used before in Espe's Tammy read is employed here. Nothing has been added besides conviction; there is no attempt to get past tonality to figure out why tammy's responses to people don't look town for example (which remains vague as is anyway). I'd have expected even tidbits from a weighty vote like this one to include content. That said I find this post of his the towniest of them all. For some reason. But I'm going to ignore that. I almost feel like I made a Mastin-like assessment.

You self voting is a really bad sign though.

Current List of people ok with being Booned: Marquis

:does not compute:

I also don't understand why there was resistance to explaining why wagoning TTH wasn't a prospect beyond tammy's participation in that wagon

Why did you spend your first ten posts chiding Titus instead of scumhunting?

Because I hadn't read. If I'm behind in games I will usually get in an argument with someone. It's the best way to get people chatting, good for getting fast reads. See Capcom for me trying to do the same kind of thing. Other examples are [REDACTED]

I think Bulba might be town.

I've never been able to read him but just from a couple of posts and the things people are saying I'm going to go town.

So you can't read him, but you're throwing a townread at him because ???????

Reasons. Yes I have a terrible time trying to read bulba. But I'm noticing some things that haven't come up in his play before and those make me lean town.

I don't actually think I can read Tammy except in cases where she is being very town in her own way which isn't happening here.

How did you start confidently scumreading her later this cycle then?

Thinking

I'm getting more and more happy in my read that you're scum. Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh. Your tone here doesn't read to me like the frustrated got irl stuff tone as far as I can tell, which is about the only explanation I have for the amount of scumminess I am feeling from your posts. And even if that is the reasoning for your tone it still doesn't mean you're town, it takes it to null, at most. I don't have the most experience with you but I'm going off what I do have. And your responses to people here for the most part aren't looking town.

Can you pull specific examples of that you're finding scummy about her responses/tone?

It's most of it. She usually respects and embraces reachouts in my experience. She even scumread mollie after she didn't react to a reachout from her. There's a disjoint and that usually means scum.

Responses in bold.

But I'm noticing some things that haven't come up in his play before and those make me lean town.

Can you talk about these? Or is it just gut?

There are actual reasons. But if I say stuff he'll modulate play and I'm not solid on the read. I'd rather keep it close to chest for the moment.

If Espe "really wants to win" why not disclose these reasons that he thinks makes Bulba town. The claim that the reasons are reasons for bulba town are undermined by the fact that he hasn't seen this play before... so how would he know if it's town or not? As for the other bolded stuff I found of interest: The dialogue with Titus didn't go anywhere. There wasn't a quick read. Titus is apparently a townread now but certainly not because of what happened on page 23. I still find it hard to believe that in liu of inspecting the content of Tammy's posts, the response to a reachout (which was almost patronizing) would have skewed him to move to vote.

If people want to the main reason as to why I cant let Tammy scumread go is because she is incredibly interested in pointing out how wrong the person who has the absolute least influential voice in the game is. Pick your battles and play the game.

This is not true at all. I haven't read most of them, but tammy's walls are organized enough that it's obvious she's talking about more than one person, even in different capacities, to warrant this denouncement.

Ok what are people's opinions on TTh's case on Marq? Considering how solid it looked to me, I'm surprised that we're the only two votes on him.

As someone who actually read through that (being like, the one thing I did so far this game), I'm going to go ahead and state that TTh's Marquis case is nowhere close to ironclad. It's a good point but it has plenty of flaws if taken alone. If this "looks solid" to Espe it's clear to me it's a tacit admission he didn't read anything beyond TTh's post... nor quite obviously, my caveats directly following which might have helped him avoid this question.

All other posts made by Espe I either find alignment neutral or repetitive with the ones presented here.

My conclusion is that he's scummy. The most egregious thing being focusing on Tammy, regardless of reading solely into her meta/tone or whatever, and dropping attempting to read Empire during this period. It was a simple thing to answer his request to review his reads even (detailed and long as they were).

VOTE: Espe

I'll do CDB later today so sit tight

[GuyInFreezer]

@Titus: ika doesn't expect you to figure out his plan at all, or at least not now, and your message to him didn't make much sense to him. Also, if his prediction is correct, then at least one on each wagon and 2 off.
@Bulba: Can you link me your singer-case again? I don't see how singer has a scum-mindset.

[TellTaleHeart]

Hello mastin.
Anti's wondering why you're not sheeping the vote he's endorsing if you're townreading this slot so hard.

[GuyInFreezer]

@Titus: Also by your own admission day 1 is a charisma based day so ika says him having his read on you wane and your reaction to it looks bad.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh also before i forget again.

If you ever thought that I would perform a slayer's gambit for whatever reason that thought alone is an insult to me.

[Titus]

@GiF, I am sorry if I insulted you. Given the influence ika has had on this game, I thought you were taking his adivce. I meant no offense by it.

The message to ika is meant to be convoluted to some extent. I was identifying I was using similar crumbing methods to a game on DLP where I played town siding survivor. If he follows the clues, I left him information thatmight be helpful. Given the amount of games I play, putting that in that manner is the best wayI can get a message to just ika without breaking a code mechanic.

I am frustrated that I am trying to work with you both but you not telling me what's going on. I feel like I am trying to play without a playbook and getting chastized for it.

That being said, if you are unwilling to communicate with me your plan, I will just say fuck you and go it with my other townreads. I will still protect you but it will be my way. Is that clear?

[Titus]

Hello mastin.
Anti's wondering why you're not sheeping the vote he's endorsing if you're townreading this slot so hard.

I think Mastina's made it abundantly clear that conftown doesn't mean confright in her reactions with Ffery.

[fferyllt]

gif is there a way you can communicate the plan to me? there may not be much value in trying to but maybe?

[GuyInFreezer]

ika says titus is being too obscure for him to figure out. Also he says if we told you we would have to kill you
Also ika wants you to tell him why you think titus is town.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh also for fun and stuff

@Titus: why is titus town?

[Titus]

@Singer

You used a lot of words to essentially say what has already been said about TTH and Shadoweh. The reasons suck then and they suck now. TTH checking DV is NOT alignment indicative. Nor was the sub out. TTH isn't the type to post a lot, but when he does, it generally is good. He's here now, and posting. I don't agree with his reads but he seems genuine about them.

The Shadoweh case depends on you being town and TTH being scum. I believe neither to be true.


I would like to see you takr a townread and defend them. Stick your neck out, risk getting burned if you are town.


Also, BBT said he didn't care for meta. Not surprised. He did link me to a past game. BBT and I both share a disdain for meta, so yeah.

[fferyllt]

ika says titus is being too obscure for him to figure out. Also he says if we told you we would have to kill you
Also ika wants you to tell him why you think titus is town.

My impression of her scum play is pigheaded crappy pushes laced with eagerness to drop them as soon as town (leaders) starts to pick a direction. There's also a lack of curiosity. her town play lacks that willingness to change direction.

her play here doesn't look like her town play and I think it's because she is letting a committee guide her, and I think that would be a risky decision for her to make as scum.

Also, Nacho's townreading her.

I have occasional flickers of worry, mostly because I don't feel like I want to scream at the screen often enough for a game I'm playing with her.

[Titus]

Oh also for fun and stuff

@Titus: why is titus town?

Why am I town? I hate making towncases on myself but its important to ika so yeah...

Rather than riding on my backside, active lurking and forcing dichotomies between players to take advantage of them, I am trying to get my townreads to work together and defend each other like a coalition. I am still pushing my scumreads as I do this but listening and responding to arguments intelligently.

As for the crumb then, have ika pick a game for a crumb style. I will try to follow that.

@FFery I do have to agree with ika/GiF on telling you Ffery. Risk of interception (given no private history) is far too high and would gain little.

[fferyllt]

GiF and I have some private history, though not a lot. Which is why I won't get pissy about being told to mind my own damn business.

[GuyInFreezer]

I am trying to get my townreads to work together and defend each other like a coalition.

Isn't this what you did in Open 569?

[GuyInFreezer]

GiF and I have some private history, though not a lot. Which is why I won't get pissy about being told to mind my own damn business.

+ you prob figured out what I'm up to anyway.

[Titus]

I am basically trying to be stubborn on townreads only. It seems to be working so far...only Marwuis has a wagon on him.

Remind me the name of Open 569?

[Titus]

Found it. Open 569 I was in abject pain from a car accident I was in. I didn't bus because my meta was to never bus but no I was throwing shade on all the major townreads there. I just cracked when I thought Sakura was pushing me for not replying fast enough.

[mastin2]

Hello mastin.
Anti's wondering why you're not sheeping the vote he's endorsing if you're townreading this slot so hard.

Mainly because Marquis is a much weaker read and I'm not sure who I want to lynch.

...Okay, I know who I WANT to lynch (singer, DV), but I'm not sure who I want to AGREE to lynching. (Who I bargain with, essentially.)

To be perfectly honest, it's looking like today's heading towards an Esp lynch (not the happiest about that), secondary choices being Dan, Aronis, and

maybe

Marquis. I'll support any of those. I'll try to unify the town in their stronger reads, work together in bringing stuff together where it most matters. But none of them will make me happy. Not Marquis, not Aronis, not Dan, maybe not even Esp.

[GuyInFreezer]

mastin

is pie following your game