Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[fferyllt]

@Gamma

paraphrasing from Nacho:

Singer is being uncomfortable, but not in her towniness. She's uncomfortable in the attack, in having to tell so many of you that you're being wrong, and in finding a firm piece of ground in all that to place her foot. It's reasonable and sensible for her to feel that way and react that way.

Nacho really really doesn't understand why you're failing so hard at reading her, because it feels like it's the sort of read that you should be able to make and then hold on to and not have to look back.

[fferyllt]

Skipping from page 24 to 28 to say the following: ffery, you're town, I'm town, Cabd would like to collaborate with you for the brief time you're here.

What happened to this, TSO? the brief time is ticking down.

[Cheetory6]

I skimmed a little bit at the very end of singer's ISO but I have a lot of notes on Zar/Empire/Singer.
Singer. I just want to say.
Your posts are HARD to follow :c [<3]

General summary: Earlygame Zar was a little scummy, but his exit felt pretty town to me. Empire read as town to me. Some things stand out as being sketch to me with singer, but I also see some things that look kind of town to me so I kind of feel like she's probably town and I don't really think I can get behind a lynch on her today.

Questions:
i) @regfan, are you still townreading DV as strongly as you were before?

ii)

Someone specifically asked me about TTH, so that's where my attention landed. You're more than welcome to point me in a different direction, but until then, don't act like I made up what to comment on out of no where.

Why did you defend you talking about TTH like this when you were voting for her? Why not just say that you were scumreading her if that was the case instead of just saying that someone pointed you in that direction?

iii)

Pages 36-37 seem to have a lot of GiF and CDB deferring to their team about reads, but then GiF said he's playing this game independently (implying little help from his team), and CDB is falling back on CES a lot and not forming his own stances. I'd like to see more of a catch-up from CDB than a few responses to recent posts before making my own judgement.

I'd still be willing to lynch Shadoweh or mastin, but I'm also willing to lynch CDB, Espeonage, TTH, or Aronis (in that order) for a general apathy and not really reading them as pro-town at this point.

Not too long before this you said you were reading Espeonage as genuine because of him claiming his action. What made you change your mind as of this quote?

iv) wrt TTH what about 1486 strikes you as so convincingly not coming from a townPOV?

v)

Meta's ever changing so if you're suggesting I've all of a sudden reverted back to the way I played scum four years ago without acknowledging that I've played scum (and town!) differently since then, it's a pretty scum motivated push to support a mislynch, yes.

I thought you said you'd only played one scumgame since like 2012 other than the newbie game. Am I crazy or?

[Cheetory6]

@Gamma

: what do you think of the game that ffery posted with singer's recent scum-meta? Can you comment on that please?

[T S O]

Skipping from page 24 to 28 to say the following: ffery, you're town, I'm town, Cabd would like to collaborate with you for the brief time you're here.

What happened to this, TSO? the brief time is ticking down.

Well, I was V/LA for close to 2 weeks, and Cabd hasn't managed to catch up, from what I can see.

It is what it is - my apologies, ffery.

[fferyllt]

CONFTOWN

fferyllt (voteless, but can post).
Marquis.

PROBTOWN, IGNORING POTENTIAL UNCANNY VALLEY OF PARANOIA

Oversoul. (Tammy.)
Deasvail.

KINDAMAYBEPROBTOWN

Cheetory6.
Aronis.
ChannelDelibird.
Vezokpiraka.

PLEASEBETOWN

Bulbazak.
GuyinFreezer.

WAS KINDAMAYBEPROBTOWN, now idk idk IDK MAYBE

T S O.

IGNORE UNLESS UNAVOIDABLE

Titus.

NOPE

Actiondan.
Espeonage.
Gammagooey.
Mastin2.
Shadoweh.

UHHHH

singersigner. (Empire.) (Zar.)

SOMETIMES I PRETEND I'M GOOD WITH META I PROBABLY DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE ANY CLUE ABOUT

Untrod Tripod.

PROBSCUM - THERE'S SOME SORT OF "CONFIRMABLE" CLAIM HERE SO JUST IGNORE IF YOU CAN I GUESS

TellTaleHeart. (Antihero.)

Could you talk a little bit about your aronis read?

[Marquis]

Early on I was thinking his play at the very least reminded me of his mislynch baity play in Quil's Smalltown where I wanted to lynch him basically the whole game (I got to, and he flipped town). I don't really remember much of anything he's said lately, or I didn't even read it at all, but while I know that's not exactly the best reason to townread him it surprised me how steady the feeling remained when thinking back on the minor day.

[fferyllt]

I hated his espeonage wall.

more on that in a bit

[Marquis]

There's a lot to hate about town!Aronis. Again, I'm still surprised how much that feeling sticks even now.

[T S O]

There's also a lot to hate about scum!Aronis, from my memories of him.

[T S O]

Actually, that's unfair - it's Flames I'm thinking of, not him.

[Cheetory6]

Aronis made a wall on Espeonage?
Even more importantly, Aronis made a wall?
I don't see one in his ISO? o.o

[Cheetory6]

I'm almost 90% sure you mean ActionDan.

[fferyllt]

I'm almost 90% sure you mean ActionDan.

I did.

I have to paraphrase some shit first. bear with me.

[fferyllt]

I come with analysis!

Specifically on Espeonage.

nah I'm not and I can even proves it like right now.

1. If I was scum I'm fairly sure I would have noticed the game had started.
2. I actually spent token(s) on making myself town because I want to win TM.
3. The only time I don't choose scum when given a choice is when I really want to win or need to do it to eradicate choice meta. Both of those need me to be town.
I'm baning with OMGUS as soon as I find out who it was.

None of this proves anything. Even taking it at face value, how would "eradicating choice meta" be a priority in a game Espe "really wants to win"? For that matter, why would really wanting to win be something that varies significantly across games. We all play to win regardless anyway, so in that endeavor, choosing town would be the right thing to do anyway. I realize this is mostly tongue in cheek but it factors in to responses/posts later in the game and I feel compelled to gut it.

espe said "eradicating choice meta OR when he really wants to win. Also, players players play harder in some game because of what is intrinsically or extrinsically at stake. There's an added layer of not letting your team down in these games that has seen several players raising the bar over their average level of caring about games.

TSO, I asked you to read my posts because I felt you were misunderstanding me and I was repeating myself.

You think I lie for no reason???

The booze is for me tonight to try to make sense of this.

@DV, He asks questions, follows through on the answers and articulates his positions well. This is town Bulba.

That sounds like null bulba. Pls don't declare things that aren't true.

hella yeah this game is gonna be easy.

Ok well I don't get an easy bane vote then.

But you're lies about bulba stand.

The point is that he can(TM).

And you gonna tell me that someone with established tonal tells that drew scum in TM isn't going to fabricate posts carefully? That's just not respecting Team Mafia.

Anyone can fabricate anything if they put their mind to it. But, Titus listed traits that I would presuppose would be more likely to be associated with Bulba town as opposed to her other experience of him as a scum lurker. Thus it becomes more probable that he's town (at least to her [it is far wiser to examine the content of someone's arguments/posts in any case whether carefully constructed or disjointed however]).

It's not conftown but I feel really good about Bulba.

Ok see, that is much better, well done.

For example, in a game where I have read half a page, you're the closest thing to a scum read.

I didn't call you scum, you need reading comprehension.

The point I was trying to make is that you can spout a read but that doesn't mean it's right.

I'm going to give this the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't an outright slip, but there's no point that's being made here. people can spout reads with or without the added bonus of reasons - which titus gave - to add and progress the gamestate (which means people being able to read them or adding to the volume of posts to discuss or what have you), you just happen to disagree with it. Also later on you question Tammy about having a problem with Mastin "voicing a town read" on TTH and believe me the strength of that read is stronger than here so this lesson is rather hypocritical.

You agreed with espe's point that titus' reasons for townreading bulba were weak, but you turned it into an "espe is likelier scum" point.

The lesson was bad. So?

Tammy what part of voicing a townread is ever bad for town?

---

Hey Titus. Quick question.

Why is buddying of any importance when there has been no flip yet?

Hey Titus. Quick question.

Why is buddying of any importance when there has been no flip yet?

Because we like people who like us. So scum can buddy by being likable.

@DV, What am I ingoring?

Town can also buddy so shit gets done. Come back after a flip.

pedit: LOL

This dialogue with Titus is quickly becoming needless pestering. It stops here but it's absolutely bereft of purpose. This exchange feels more like a fabrication of developing a scumread than a conversation.

Ok so at the end of page 23, I feel that Tammy is getting a bit agitated where she doesn't need to be. I mainly think her arguments are barking up the wrong tree and the excepts (I have yet to follow up on reading then in context) seem to be more of deflection over anything, which seems weird and Zar appears to be arguing the tree rather than the forest which is usually a sign of scum so I'm leaning towards voting.

@Red Wine Talk: That is the most fun game I have even played in and I was one of the first people dead. Anyone looking to learn how to do scum theater needs to read that game. I doubt there will be another example of how to both flail, and clear yourself from that.

If it makes you feel better I am cautiously nullscum on Tammy. She is playing how I have seen her play as non hydra scum but I don't want to push it off such a small sample size as I have.

I will say that I am not ok with Tammy boon for the moment.

And now I want to ignore TamPire.

I already covered the your slot. Mostly deflection and I Tammy's wall felt very similar to the way she went about attacking me in Red Wine which means that she is probably either right or scum with you.

I will not clarify the Tammy pings.

If I'm getting this right suspicion is accruing due to a perceived similarity between tammy's scum theater in one game and play/walls in this one. And in that event, and considering the statement that tammy is either scum or "right", why would Espe choose to ignore the Empire part of "TamPire". That should be the person he should be looking into the hardest. Instead we're going to see an obsession with Tammy.

Hey Tammy, you know how you were during like the mid part of Unbalanced 2.

This is me telling you, you need to breathe.

Also btw, your explanation of why you attacked me in Red Wine is equatable to why I think you're attacking here as was picked up by Empire.

Ok got some pedits.

Why are you trying to calm me down if you think I'm scum? Wouldn't I be faking my agitation in that case?

I have no idea what you mean by "as picked up by empire".

Dude, I don't know if you are scum. If you are town then there is no way I want to sever ties with you. This is going to be a long game, and we're going to need to be working together at some point over the course of this.

On that note, it's one of the reasons I was being iffy about my nullscum read on Tammy. I don't actually think I can read Tammy except in cases where she is being very town in her own way which isn't happening here.

It should be noted that by his own admission he can't definitely read Tammy on meta and tone alone except to conclude he can't townread her. Which is fine, that kind of distinction via meta and tone is something I do and most people do regularly.

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

See Tammy, the thing is that mollie has played with scum you very recently, I have a rapport with mollie as of recent and I don't have a good rapport with the confirmed town.

Now with that out of the way.

I'm getting more and more happy in my read that you're scum. Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh. Your tone here doesn't read to me like the frustrated got irl stuff tone as far as I can tell, which is about the only explanation I have for the amount of scumminess I am feeling from your posts. And even if that is the reasoning for your tone it still doesn't mean you're town, it takes it to null, at most. I don't have the most experience with you but I'm going off what I do have. And your responses to people here for the most part aren't looking town.

I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Vote: Tammy

gots a preedit come up

Logically, everything about this post is alarming. That same meta that was used before in Espe's Tammy read is employed here. Nothing has been added besides conviction; there is no attempt to get past tonality to figure out why tammy's responses to people don't look town for example (which remains vague as is anyway). I'd have expected even tidbits from a weighty vote like this one to include content. That said I find this post of his the towniest of them all. For some reason. But I'm going to ignore that. I almost feel like I made a Mastin-like assessment.

You self voting is a really bad sign though.

Current List of people ok with being Booned: Marquis

:does not compute:

I also don't understand why there was resistance to explaining why wagoning TTH wasn't a prospect beyond tammy's participation in that wagon

Why did you spend your first ten posts chiding Titus instead of scumhunting?

Because I hadn't read. If I'm behind in games I will usually get in an argument with someone. It's the best way to get people chatting, good for getting fast reads. See Capcom for me trying to do the same kind of thing. Other examples are [REDACTED]

I think Bulba might be town.

I've never been able to read him but just from a couple of posts and the things people are saying I'm going to go town.

So you can't read him, but you're throwing a townread at him because ???????

Reasons. Yes I have a terrible time trying to read bulba. But I'm noticing some things that haven't come up in his play before and those make me lean town.

I don't actually think I can read Tammy except in cases where she is being very town in her own way which isn't happening here.

How did you start confidently scumreading her later this cycle then?

Thinking

I'm getting more and more happy in my read that you're scum. Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh. Your tone here doesn't read to me like the frustrated got irl stuff tone as far as I can tell, which is about the only explanation I have for the amount of scumminess I am feeling from your posts. And even if that is the reasoning for your tone it still doesn't mean you're town, it takes it to null, at most. I don't have the most experience with you but I'm going off what I do have. And your responses to people here for the most part aren't looking town.

Can you pull specific examples of that you're finding scummy about her responses/tone?

It's most of it. She usually respects and embraces reachouts in my experience. She even scumread mollie after she didn't react to a reachout from her. There's a disjoint and that usually means scum.

Responses in bold.

But I'm noticing some things that haven't come up in his play before and those make me lean town.

Can you talk about these? Or is it just gut?

There are actual reasons. But if I say stuff he'll modulate play and I'm not solid on the read. I'd rather keep it close to chest for the moment.

If Espe "really wants to win" why not disclose these reasons that he thinks makes Bulba town. The claim that the reasons are reasons for bulba town are undermined by the fact that he hasn't seen this play before... so how would he know if it's town or not? As for the other bolded stuff I found of interest: The dialogue with Titus didn't go anywhere. There wasn't a quick read. Titus is apparently a townread now but certainly not because of what happened on page 23. I still find it hard to believe that in liu of inspecting the content of Tammy's posts, the response to a reachout (which was almost patronizing) would have skewed him to move to vote.

If people want to the main reason as to why I cant let Tammy scumread go is because she is incredibly interested in pointing out how wrong the person who has the absolute least influential voice in the game is. Pick your battles and play the game.

This is not true at all. I haven't read most of them, but tammy's walls are organized enough that it's obvious she's talking about more than one person, even in different capacities, to warrant this denouncement.

Ok what are people's opinions on TTh's case on Marq? Considering how solid it looked to me, I'm surprised that we're the only two votes on him.

As someone who actually read through that (being like, the one thing I did so far this game), I'm going to go ahead and state that TTh's Marquis case is nowhere close to ironclad. It's a good point but it has plenty of flaws if taken alone. If this "looks solid" to Espe it's clear to me it's a tacit admission he didn't read anything beyond TTh's post... nor quite obviously, my caveats directly following which might have helped him avoid this question.

All other posts made by Espe I either find alignment neutral or repetitive with the ones presented here.

My conclusion is that he's scummy. The most egregious thing being focusing on Tammy, regardless of reading solely into her meta/tone or whatever, and dropping attempting to read Empire during this period. It was a simple thing to answer his request to review his reads even (detailed and long as they were).

VOTE: Espe

I'll do CDB later today so sit tight

this feels like you're calling a personality thing scummy. The only thing you could possibly spin this into is an argument that Espe is trying to fill the thread up with a lot of noise. Which is not the case. And if you wanted to make such a case there's another player with nearly twice the number of posts.

[fferyllt]

This looked like a huge effortful post, but there's actually very little meat to it.

I'm going to ask the folks who have pledged their swords, bows, axes, etc to me for the day to move their votes to Action Dan. please and thank you.

Also, Cheetory - you're invited too!

[fferyllt]

Nacho wants you to sheep him for old times sake!

[fferyllt]

And Mastin!

Nacho thinks that regardless of which of us are correct in our big divergencies in this game, there is scum in the middle ground, and he thinks Action Dan is very likely to be one.

[Cheetory6]

Haha sure.
VOTE: ActionDan
I shall support you in your time of need!
I'll take a closer look at AD after I muster up the motivation to work on Espe/Shadow ISOs.
I also may end up pitching an Espe case to you in the very near future if I still like the current theory for the scumteam that I have in my head though.

[Marquis]

VOTE: AD

I'll leave this here then.

[T S O]

Venimus, vidimus, Gestalt vicit!



VOTE: ActionDan

[Marquis]

I really don't care who gets lynched anymore, btw, and that's not just because of my situation. At the risk of using an clichéd phrase, this has gone on long enough.

[Cheetory6]

Ah whatever. I don't have the energy to take serious unbiased notes on Espeonage. I'm too tinted by other things and I feel like I just need to engage with what I have at this point because my notes are getting lazy and confbiased as fuck.
People should tell me what they think of Titus/Espeonage scumteam doing bullshit fighting stuff for distancing.

[hitogoroshi]

VC 64 (Major Day 1, VC 26)

(7)

Espeonage:

ChannelDelibird, vezorpiraka, Untrod Tripod, ActionDan, Aronis, GuyInFreezer, Shadoweh

(Cheetory6)

[L-3]
(5)

ActionDan:

DeasVail, singersigner, Cheetory6, Marquis, T S O
(3)

singersigner:

Gammagooey, Bulbazak, Titus
(1)

TellTaleHeart:

Oversoul

(Marquis)

(1)

Marquis:

TellTaleHeart
(1)

Titus:

Espeonage

(1)

Not Voting:

mastin2

(T S O)

With 19 votes in play, it takes 10 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, April 25th, at 9PM CST.

Major Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-25 20:00:00)

[mastin2]

Fferylt, now that Thor and Llmarble are dead could you have them give their opinions on this game? Specifically, CDB, UT, TellTale, and Mastin?

Odd choices given that Thor probably has only some snarky comment in regards to me that boiled down means "I have nothing" and I don't think I've ever played with Llmarble so I'd be pretty dang surprised if he gave some valuable insight on his first go-around.

I'm back here.

But I wanted to convey that pie dream-suspected Marquis.
No, seriously. That pie got spoilers of Marquis being scum. That was pie's dream.

Good enough for me.

Vote: Marquis

.

/catching up.