8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[wgeurts]

Ooh lets dance

[Metal Sonic]

thank god you're here

I'm unfortunately past my bedtime during a toilet break

And at l-1

[Metal Sonic]

VOTE: wgeurts

I need to put you at l-1 too cause of my position


ZZZX you know this is town me so please defend me and talk to me

[Metal Sonic]

no but wge only stands to benefit if ooba and me are both town

[GreyICE]

Oh and more bullshit!

Kagami (4) - Zar, ZZZX, Nachomamma8, GreyICE

Ooh, that could go through!

Kagami lynch isn't happening today, the wagon that recentely built up feels off.

Nacho wagon is based off only town and kagami wagon is built up horribly. We gain the most info from lynching nacho, I agree with MS. Half wat through the game again with my reread.

Come on, people. Set aside your differences for one day. 6:1 beats the shit out of 6:2

[Metal Sonic]

I hope I haven't made a wrong move because of the time again



I have made many wrong moves in this game and it has consequences to me

[wgeurts]

All right, I got to spend a weekend with LLD, and that was great. And now I'm back. And I have scum. This is a 100% guaranteed lynch-me-if-wrong red flip. And friends? Listen to me.

So, to preface you'll notice I have some favorite scumtells. And one of them is simple (so simple ZZZX should have caught it with his VCA). FOS scum, vote town. FOS Scum, vote town.

Why Wguerts is scum

Lets begin a little tale. It starts here.

Guessing you're not going to explain why.
VOTE: ABR
We're in a nightless and all info is relevant, hiding it is anti-town. I'm going to vote you until you say it was a joke or explain why it's serious.

Fair enough, it is RVS.

A ton of interaction with ABR, and then the case on Silverwolf is made. And it is good.

UNVOTE:
That's a genuine point.

UNVOTE. No revote. Genuine point? Heh. THIS IS NOT MENTIONED AGAIN. In point of fact his next few posts are all genuine bullshitting with people until we get this:

VOTE: MetalSonic
I do believe I also stated to ZZZX scum would pounce on the stuff you've pounced on as a sort of slayers gambit. You've attempted to falsely frame me, as expected from scum.

So "Good point on Silverwolf... vote: Metal Sonic"

Lets examine Sotty now that she's the primary wagon.

EBWOP:
And sotty, I need to look at the sotty/ICE interaction ...

What does he find?

Your "townhunting" theory and townblock are so incredibly bad that one cannot believe you came up with them unbiased.

Nightless games inevitably snowball. See Camden, or my setup I designed with Hito. At the moment we have 4 mislynches to town loss, but after a single scum lynch we get a spare mislynch. 5 mislynches is nice. Two scum die, and we get 6. That's really nice. 3, and we get 7 fucking mislynches, and if we manage that we should all quit the site.

So the scum are going to be looking to vote as a block. I smell protectionist scum who wish to work together.

Reading the Sotty/ICE interactions (Via ISO) and I noticed this. This was never pushed afterwards was it?

ICE, why didn't you question ZZZX further on this?

Hey GreyICE, go vote ZZZX. That's the review.

If it's SvT I'd say ICE would be the town.
Can't tell what it is yet though.
Your thoughts ABR?

Next thoughts on this?

VOTE: Eddie
Ice has a very good point in 317, his reaction afterwards was also awful. He didn't even attempt to explain the inconsistency (like MS, however he just changes topic). Saying "you suck" isn't a valid defence.

Quick to follow me onto Eddie. Doesn't follow on Sotty at all.

ICE and Sotty could actually be TvT, I'm also not seeing Kagami's accusations of ICE just dropping the sotty read either.
Started a look at Seraphim as well, is his voting pattern always so erratic?
Willing to lynch kagami.
VOTE: Kagami

Finally a scum vote!

Imagine most of the scum are in {Kagami/Seraphim/Eddie/Zar}.
I honestly think Sotty and ICE are both town. This would be subject to change if Kagami flips town.

Mmmm. TvT was it. Lets face it, Kagami was playing so epically poorly that it doesn't seem like there's any hope of him surviving. So we get this extremely soft bus. EXTREMELY. We get very little on Kagami, ever. We do get this:

Ok, here's why I'm town reading Sotty.

His first post (112) starts my town read on him. He's already starting to figure out the game, trying to see who's town and who's not.

Then there's the interaction with GreyICE which I believe is TvT. Although his defences are a little shoddy I believe that he's truely convinced that GreyICE is completely pushing him off "lies", much as I did when MetalSonic voted me. He's received the similar tunnel-vision type play I admit I then got after MetalSonic and is trying to show everyone ICE is completely wrong and is early on biased into thinking ICE is scum for all his upcoming posts.

Once he draws away from this in the bottom of 208 and in the bottom half of 316 he shoes a pretty town mindset showing thoughts on players which develop as the posts go along.

There's also the fact that he finds everyone that's voting him is scummy and opportunistic. This is something I do myself as town when I'm getting frustrated when a wagon forms on me. As when you're town you know at some point scum will join it, so you try to show the world that as you are convinced there are scum on your wagon. The problem is, people don't think you're town and therefore it makes arguing "scum are on my wagon" a really weak argument. This type of behaviour is something I'd expect from town, it doesn't really make sense as scum.
His blatant demanding explanation how GreyICE has any good points on him also fits this frustrated town view.

640 is a nice post of his.

And there's a little town cred that he resisted hoopla lynch, could be faked but hey.

Yeah, hence I said it could be faked. But Sotty has real natural reads which you can follow if you look beyond the ICE tosh.
The hoopla thing is minor.

Yah, town can be wrong, but where are these opinions even coming from.

Wguerts has never asked Sotty a single question.

Go back and check. Not even ever. Kagami either. No questions, but reads erupt. He asks lots of people questions too... but not Kagami. Not Sotty.

Now my Zar scum read isn't the strongest but it's base off him being rather "flexible" with his reads. If I'm wrong on one of my scum reads it's probably him.

His reads list in post 717 is rather conveniently structured. He's got a Sotty/Seraphim/Eddie/Kagami lynch-pool; basically a broad group of those that the most people suspect of being scum. Hoopla's also nicely in the middle meaning he can transition to her quite easily if wanted, this was when discussion on hoopla was starting and hadn't yet brought up a wagon or strong scum conviction. He also doesn't vote anyone strengthening my thought that he was setting up to cherry-pick a good wagon after waiting a little more.

969 continues this as he votes sotty when hoopla and kagami are both being wagoned hard at that moment. Why doesn't he vote them as it's obvious sotty isn't getting lynched at that point in time, kagami he fully ignores (one of his scum-reads) and he doesn't say a word on hoopla. Could it be, he's once again positioning himself to join one of these wagons? Using the sotty vote to make it look less blatant?
He also starts to shed a bit more doubt on nacho, around the same time others were starting to shed doubt on nacho. 975 blatantly expresses this suddenly growing suspicion, he's still pushing a stupid wagon and not even commenting on kagami.
Most of his nacho scum read is because nacho town reads seraphim while Zar doesn't making nacho suspicious.

The next day he suddenly agrees with a kagami lynch, he completely ignored it the day before and now he decides it's worth pushing. He also makes sure that he shows suspicion in nacho, the other likely wagon. Sotty is no longer worth wagoning it appears.

Scum with Kagami case. Heh. Wants bank off the bus.

First actual case on Kagami?

Here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6759586

Vote is on Nacho during this, mind you.

Learn the signs, friends.

Vote: Wguerts

All right, I got to spend a weekend with LLD, and that was great. And now I'm back. And I have scum. This is a 100% guaranteed lynch-me-if-wrong red flip. And friends? Listen to me.

So, to preface you'll notice I have some favorite scumtells. And one of them is simple (so simple ZZZX should have caught it with his VCA). FOS scum, vote town. FOS Scum, vote town.

Why Wguerts is scum

Lets begin a little tale. It starts here.

Guessing you're not going to explain why.
VOTE: ABR
We're in a nightless and all info is relevant, hiding it is anti-town. I'm going to vote you until you say it was a joke or explain why it's serious.

Fair enough, it is RVS.

A ton of interaction with ABR, and then the case on Silverwolf is made. And it is good.

UNVOTE:
That's a genuine point.

UNVOTE. No revote. Genuine point? Heh. THIS IS NOT MENTIONED AGAIN. In point of fact his next few posts are all genuine bullshitting with people until we get this:

I said I'd unvote when ABR gave reasoning and I did so.

VOTE: MetalSonic
I do believe I also stated to ZZZX scum would pounce on the stuff you've pounced on as a sort of slayers gambit. You've attempted to falsely frame me, as expected from scum.

So "Good point on Silverwolf... vote: Metal Sonic"

I meant that ABR had a valid reason for voting SilverWolf, read on and you'd see me asking people wether his point was correct. I don't know SW well enough to judge his point for myself.

Lets examine Sotty now that she's the primary wagon.

EBWOP:
And sotty, I need to look at the sotty/ICE interaction ...

What does he find?

Your "townhunting" theory and townblock are so incredibly bad that one cannot believe you came up with them unbiased.

Nightless games inevitably snowball. See Camden, or my setup I designed with Hito. At the moment we have 4 mislynches to town loss, but after a single scum lynch we get a spare mislynch. 5 mislynches is nice. Two scum die, and we get 6. That's really nice. 3, and we get 7 fucking mislynches, and if we manage that we should all quit the site.

So the scum are going to be looking to vote as a block. I smell protectionist scum who wish to work together.

Reading the Sotty/ICE interactions (Via ISO) and I noticed this. This was never pushed afterwards was it?

ICE, why didn't you question ZZZX further on this?

Hey GreyICE, go vote ZZZX. That's the review.

If it's SvT I'd say ICE would be the town.
Can't tell what it is yet though.
Your thoughts ABR?

Next thoughts on this?

What's wrong here?

VOTE: Eddie
Ice has a very good point in 317, his reaction afterwards was also awful. He didn't even attempt to explain the inconsistency (like MS, however he just changes topic). Saying "you suck" isn't a valid defence.

Quick to follow me onto Eddie. Doesn't follow on Sotty at all.

Wasn't convinced sotty was scum, as I said if I had to say it was SvT I'd say ICE would be the town.

ICE and Sotty could actually be TvT, I'm also not seeing Kagami's accusations of ICE just dropping the sotty read either.
Started a look at Seraphim as well, is his voting pattern always so erratic?
Willing to lynch kagami.
VOTE: Kagami

Finally a scum vote!

Imagine most of the scum are in {Kagami/Seraphim/Eddie/Zar}.
I honestly think Sotty and ICE are both town. This would be subject to change if Kagami flips town.

Mmmm. TvT was it. Lets face it, Kagami was playing so epically poorly that it doesn't seem like there's any hope of him surviving. So we get this extremely soft bus. EXTREMELY. We get very little on Kagami, ever. We do get this:

Ok, here's why I'm town reading Sotty.

His first post (112) starts my town read on him. He's already starting to figure out the game, trying to see who's town and who's not.

Then there's the interaction with GreyICE which I believe is TvT. Although his defences are a little shoddy I believe that he's truely convinced that GreyICE is completely pushing him off "lies", much as I did when MetalSonic voted me. He's received the similar tunnel-vision type play I admit I then got after MetalSonic and is trying to show everyone ICE is completely wrong and is early on biased into thinking ICE is scum for all his upcoming posts.

Once he draws away from this in the bottom of 208 and in the bottom half of 316 he shoes a pretty town mindset showing thoughts on players which develop as the posts go along.

There's also the fact that he finds everyone that's voting him is scummy and opportunistic. This is something I do myself as town when I'm getting frustrated when a wagon forms on me. As when you're town you know at some point scum will join it, so you try to show the world that as you are convinced there are scum on your wagon. The problem is, people don't think you're town and therefore it makes arguing "scum are on my wagon" a really weak argument. This type of behaviour is something I'd expect from town, it doesn't really make sense as scum.
His blatant demanding explanation how GreyICE has any good points on him also fits this frustrated town view.

640 is a nice post of his.

And there's a little town cred that he resisted hoopla lynch, could be faked but hey.

Yeah, hence I said it could be faked. But Sotty has real natural reads which you can follow if you look beyond the ICE tosh.
The hoopla thing is minor.

Yah, town can be wrong, but where are these opinions even coming from.

Wguerts has never asked Sotty a single question.

Go back and check. Not even ever. Kagami either. No questions, but reads erupt. He asks lots of people questions too... but not Kagami. Not Sotty.

?
I never really found him hard scum

Now my Zar scum read isn't the strongest but it's base off him being rather "flexible" with his reads. If I'm wrong on one of my scum reads it's probably him.

His reads list in post 717 is rather conveniently structured. He's got a Sotty/Seraphim/Eddie/Kagami lynch-pool; basically a broad group of those that the most people suspect of being scum. Hoopla's also nicely in the middle meaning he can transition to her quite easily if wanted, this was when discussion on hoopla was starting and hadn't yet brought up a wagon or strong scum conviction. He also doesn't vote anyone strengthening my thought that he was setting up to cherry-pick a good wagon after waiting a little more.

969 continues this as he votes sotty when hoopla and kagami are both being wagoned hard at that moment. Why doesn't he vote them as it's obvious sotty isn't getting lynched at that point in time, kagami he fully ignores (one of his scum-reads) and he doesn't say a word on hoopla. Could it be, he's once again positioning himself to join one of these wagons? Using the sotty vote to make it look less blatant?
He also starts to shed a bit more doubt on nacho, around the same time others were starting to shed doubt on nacho. 975 blatantly expresses this suddenly growing suspicion, he's still pushing a stupid wagon and not even commenting on kagami.
Most of his nacho scum read is because nacho town reads seraphim while Zar doesn't making nacho suspicious.

The next day he suddenly agrees with a kagami lynch, he completely ignored it the day before and now he decides it's worth pushing. He also makes sure that he shows suspicion in nacho, the other likely wagon. Sotty is no longer worth wagoning it appears.

Scum with Kagami case. Heh. Wants bank off the bus.

First actual case on Kagami?

Here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6759586

Vote is on Nacho during this, mind you.

Learn the signs, friends.

Vote: Wguerts

What do you want me to explain?
I was wrong on sotty yeah.
Also you coming in and just ignoring all the recent actions and attacking the low-hanging fruit is funny.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: wgeurts

I need to put you at l-1 too cause of my position


ZZZX you know this is town me so please defend me and talk to me

Just get lynched already

[wgeurts]

ICE, nice timing with Alch
And when suspicion's being thrown my way

[ooba]

If nacho flips town we will lynch kagami right?

Ice?

[Alchemist21]

Alch, can you let me interact with titus?
ABR said she wanted him to convince me to vote nacho.
So I expect she's got reasoning.
Can you ask her to give her opinion on me and also what I should be doing if I'm town?

She said no, and you should be talking with your team about what you should be doing as Town.

[wgeurts]

Of cause she said no.
How convenient
The same as ABR said.

[wgeurts]

If nacho flips town we will lynch kagami right?

Ice?

Sure,
First derail the oncoming mislynch.
I can already predict it:
ICE, Alch, ZZZX, MS, Zar

So honestly, it's time we interact with zar to see if your read is correct.
But zar's probably scum, so I'm already screwed.

Venge ICE

[wgeurts]

Debatint Alch/ICE venge right now

[wgeurts]

Now, see alch
If your slot were town, she'd interact with me. She already claimed that I need convincing.
Your play is also not your town game.

[wgeurts]

*Awaits counter wagon to MS*

[GreyICE]

I said I'd unvote when ABR gave reasoning and I did so.

I meant that ABR had a valid reason for voting SilverWolf, read on and you'd see me asking people wether his point was correct. I don't know SW well enough to judge his point for myself.

Did you look into it at all? Nah. Even while chatting about looking at "elements mafia" you never came back with anything. You charged ahead with an MS vote.

VOTE: Eddie
Ice has a very good point in 317, his reaction afterwards was also awful. He didn't even attempt to explain the inconsistency (like MS, however he just changes topic). Saying "you suck" isn't a valid defence.

MS is still a better vote though.

Which is the opposite of what you do here, immediately jumping on someone for a point, even though "MS is better".

?
I never really found [Sotty] hard scum

You never really asked Sotty questions. This is again, not in your pattern of behavior.

Various samples of Wguerts questions:

(ignores rhetorical questions)
Who here knows SilverWolf well enough to back up or refute ABR's statement? (Note: Answer was "ABR was right", ignored here)
ZZZX, why are you still voting ABR?
ZZZX, you seem to know Metal. Would you call his play scum now? If not why?

Yeah, I admitted I needed to relook the sotty/ICE interaction, I'll do so now. I can't find the post you mean by Nacho, I'll look again but could you quote it?

Note: In looking at the interaction, never asked questions to either me or Sotty.

(to Empire) Can you elaborate on this? I don't think I understand what your trying to say.
ICE, why didn't you question ZZZX further on this?
(to Empire) Wait, what's the scumread of ICE on sotty based on?
(to ZZZX) So you think MS is town?
(General) Started a look at Seraphim as well, is his voting pattern always so erratic?
Nacho, I'm willing to discuss Zar and Sotty.
@Metal, are you starting to doubt your nacho read?


Bonus round:

Now or at which point this game?
The problem is, kagami's and odd one. She's playing terriby and I have this nagging feeling she's bad town instead of scum. I expect others also have this, I know Nacho does.

The best lynches for today are Nacho or ICE information wise, Eddie's slot for play.

[GreyICE]

If nacho flips town we will lynch kagami right?

Ice?

Sure,
First derail the oncoming mislynch.
I can already predict it:
ICE, Alch, ZZZX, MS, Zar

So honestly, it's time we interact with zar to see if your read is correct.
But zar's probably scum, so I'm already screwed.

Venge ICE

Fine by me.

[wgeurts]

ICE, you'd caught eddie on a contradiction. I can see that for myself.
SW's play I'm not familar with. So no I never looked at Element Mafia, why? Because I've got a life and I was buisy.

[wgeurts]

ICE why the flying fudge would you be ok with a venge on you?

[Alchemist21]

Now, see alch
If your slot were town, she'd interact with me. She already claimed that I need convincing.
Your play is also not your town game.

Convincing for what? Voting Nacho? He's dead anyway. And who are you to say what Titus would or wouldn't do?

Why don't you bother explaining the difference in my Town and scum game if you think you can. You're already wrong, so I don't think you can, and you're also not the only one who's played with me. We've got MS, ZZZX, and Mollie who've all played with me. (Also Zar if he remembers me from HU2.) Add that to whoever is on their teams with prior experience with me.

Hell, for someone who's played so much with ABR, how could you even say this was his scum game? The difference between his scum and Town play is pretty stark. You're just flailing at whatever you can right now.

[GreyICE]

ICE why the flying fudge would you be ok with a venge on you?

Don't give a fuck who scum tells the town to venge.

[ZZZX]

intent to hammer

[ZZZX]

frankly i am tired of this day

[wgeurts]

Alch, I couldn't read ABR properly. ABR's a stronger player and I've already learned I can't read him well.
You have a weaker scum game.
So I'll go show why it's not your town game.
I'm not going down without a fight.

From titus I would expect her to be reaching out to players she thinks are town, you claim she's following this game and ABR before said that she wanted to convince me that Nacho was scum.
Why isn't she giving reasons now when you brought her into it?
What about BBT, what were his "reasons"?
I don't know titus well, but I know she has a drive to win. And she's very vocal about her reason even if people disagree.

I call your claim BS that they're scum reading me until you give me their reasons.