Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Titus]

1) I admit it because it explains my crumbs to GiF and I know GiF is town. Scum have four players detecting. Getting GiF signs is a good idea. No, I'm NOT explaining beyond that and that is pushing it. So yes, I casually admitted it because I didn't want it to be a big deal. Plus, if we know the signs of the dead players it may help with solving the signs of living ones.
2) ika was townreading me early and is not now. The point is moot though. If you think I'm town, you think GiF is town or that I am really fucking easy to fool. Period.

@Bulba, I admit, I don't exactly orchestrate and think about how Vezok could be handled with a PR as that's not my job. Plus, I don't think any game can turn into the follow the cop anyway.

@Singer, I'll read your post more when I'm not pissed at you but no I don't see how you find someone reaching out to you as scummy especially when known town asked for that.

[singersigner]

I don't see how you could actually be pissed at me right now. You're not even adequately addressing your inconsistencies, so I'm scumreading you, and yet again, you're skirting the responsibility of "playing nice" onto someone else because your appeal to emotion didn't work with me. I'm pretty positive this is scum caught with a wagon she doesn't know how to get rid of, and now you're just channeling your anger onto me.

[hitogoroshi]

VC 86 (Major Day 1, VC 48)

(6)

Titus:

Espeonage, Cheetory6, GuyInFreezer, vezokpiraka, Aronis, singersigner [L-4]
(2)

singersigner:

mastin2, Untrod Tripod
(2)

ChannelDelibird:

Gammagooey, Titus
(2)

Espeonage:

ActionDan, ChannelDelibird
(1)

Aronis:

Shadoweh

(5)

Not Voting:

Formerfish, DeasVail, Bulbazak, TellTaleHeart, Oversoul

(singersigner)

With 18 votes in play, it takes 10 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, April 25th, at 9PM CST.

Major Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-25 20:00:00)

[Shadoweh]

##Vote: ChannelDeliBird

Everyone not voting, we really don't have time to wait, pick a wagon and flesh it out later. Titus is one of my strongest townreads and I refuse to watch this happen.

Singer: Oh, I didn't see that, I just assumed you still weren't answering me. That's a really good post. I'm okay with not lynching you anymore. I have to argue that I cared a lot about who got lynched with the first lynch, see: Me trying hard to derail Dan's wagon (someone I am brofist-townreading right now because of his reactions) onto someone I thought was scummily attacking me for poor reasons (I can understand why you wouldn't have liked that part though). I didn't want TSO lynched either, if I had I would have voted him and let the inevi9table derphammer happen instead of actively trying to stop it. And now there's a six person wagon on the person I think is literally the most active town poster. Do you understand why I'm throwing my hands up at this game?

[Cheetory6]

Fuck this game.
UNVOTE:
If CDB flips town I hope we all get to throw a party at the uselessness of all of the nothing we'll have to analyze D2 because of all the people just blanksheeping ffery.

I'll seriously be so frustrated if Titus is scum and everyone looked at her postcount while ignoring her sheer lack of focus on actually trying to find scum this cycle to throw a lameass townread on her.

Like, I'm townreading a lot of people who are townreading her so whatever, maybe I'm wrong but holy shit guys I'm going to be so disappointed if so many people didn't take me seriously here and I end up being right. -.-
I'll vote CDB tomorrow if I read the case on him and like it. I could also go for Espe wagon, but a lot of people are blanklytownreading him too so probably no point in saying so.

[fferyllt]

I have nothing more to say about today's 2nd lynch.

I'll post our reads when the day is about to end and you guys do whatever with them.

[GuyInFreezer]

UNVOTE:

Saw something that I liked.
Will sleep on it.

I still think CDB is town for that one post though.

[singersigner]

Ok Shadoweh, I'll concede to you not necessarily taking the UT approach to the lynch. I'll read through things again and try to take my confirmation goggles off. My team really wanted your blood but I'm prioritizing Titus because 1. She has support, and 2. I personally find her recent posting to be much worse right now.

Preview Edit:
Ffs guys whyyyy?? We're so close!

[singersigner]

To put it more bluntly, I'm locked into my read/vote at this point. Few people even looked at the first wagon to analyze, and if there's another close-to-deadline scramble, I'm gunna be pissed.

[Cheetory6]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Someone slap me.
I'm too frustrated about this game and I'm being a huge prick about it.
Ffery you shouldn't stop playing because I'm an asshole or because you're worried about influencing the gamestate. I just really strongly dislike that people are getting away with sheeping you without explicitly going into detail about what they like or dislike about the wagons you're pushing.

P-Edit: Singer, I really don't think there's enough support for a Tituslynch today. Locking your vote there when there's two whole days left before endcycle feels dumb.

[Shadoweh]

I'm not sheeping Ffery. He's an experienced player and I was posting to wait for a claim literally on the last page, his 'oopsie' quickhammer doesn't convince my team. One of my original reasons for scumreading him actually was the comment that I was a good player he was afraid of coming after him. It just seems like a weird thing to say to someone you're scumreading.

Cheet, you are going the wrong direction. Votes on, not off. If you have a scumread on Espy, vote him, otherwise you are lowering your own chances of voting someone scum to you.

[Shadoweh]

(also because I'm not a good player and I don't think anyone on his team would say that <.< )

[Cheetory6]

Give me a day.
I could vote for Espe, but it would literally be entirely a vanity vote because it would have no weight behind it. I know it doesn't really matter, but I just feel like I want to be voting for nobody right now while in this mindset q.q

[fferyllt]

I still think CDB is town for that one post though.

what post is this?

[singersigner]

Give me a day.
I could vote for Espe, but it would literally be entirely a vanity vote because it would have no weight behind it. I know it doesn't really matter, but I just feel like I want to be voting for nobody right now while in this mindset q.q

Why do you think there's no support behind a Titus lynch? There were six on her already, which leaves only four. I feel like there are people who haven't even had their say. There's Mastin, Shadoweh, Ffery (in spirit), Bulb, Oversoul, and DV who have outwardly expressed (I think) that they are anti this wagon, but I think UT doesn't care, gamma...maybe doesn't care? CDB...oof, who knows... Formerfish isn't around/caught up so I wouldn't count him, TTH, and AD? None of them seem to feel that strongly either way and this is one of the only wagons I

personally

feel strongly about. You say you'd hate to see scumTitus slip away...well don't let her! This is one of her most quiet days so far and I think it's because she's actually scum and doesn't know how to defend herself other than to appeal to the one person who she's apparently been scum reading the most!

I...can feel it...so close...

[singersigner]

lol my team probably hates me, I'm making all sorts of decisions without asking them how they feel loool

[Cheetory6]

Zzzzzz.
GiF also unvoted and the amount of leaderResistance to the wagon makes me feel like it's probably just not going to happen and I don't like the idea of strongarming the entire game by forcing a Titus vote that people who have more experience with Titus than me are saying is awful.

My gut feels pretty good about scumTitus, but I've seen people be super convinced about Titus being scum and being wrong. I don't feel like the potential benefits of hardpushing this lynch through and hoping that I'm on the mark is worth the huge negative energy it would create if I ended up being wrong and I forced everyone to join me by voteparking. Titus is potentially an asset lategame if she's town and she's been very active and up to date. I think she's a lot more likely to be scum than not, but like.. if I'm wrong I'm going to feel like a huge asshole and I don't really want to deal with the heat on a personal level if I'm wrong at the moment.

I think ffery and mastin [who I'm really hoping is town] are fallible and could be wrong, but they both realistically have more experience with Titus than I do. I don't have teammates backing me up in this game. I'm in the middle of my exams. I'm not in the best mindset for things right now. Please excuse me if I'm starting to feel unsure/hesitant to bare the burden of a potential mislynch on someone like Titus. q.q

[Formerfish]

I am a little drunk and pretty pissed off right now. I needed some direction/a way to get into the game, so I figured I would follow conftown in Ffery in looking at CDB. I got about half way through his iso last night and went to bed with the intention of finishing off today. At some point when I was at work my kid got a hold of the computer cord and ripped it out causing me to lose everything I had written. I can give a vague outline about why I came to my read on him, basically the nonsense ideas he had early on, contradicting himself, and making a lot of posts that seemed like they were trying to add content, but were more vapid than anything else. I know that conftown can be wrong just as much as anyone else, but I do see where she is coming from with her read, and I'm willing to back that up.

Vote CDB

[Titus]

Zzzzzz.
GiF also unvoted and the amount of leaderResistance to the wagon makes me feel like it's probably just not going to happen and I don't like the idea of strongarming the entire game by forcing a Titus vote that people who have more experience with Titus than me are saying is awful.

My gut feels pretty good about scumTitus, but I've seen people be super convinced about Titus being scum and being wrong. I don't feel like the potential benefits of hardpushing this lynch through and hoping that I'm on the mark is worth the huge negative energy it would create if I ended up being wrong and I forced everyone to join me by voteparking. Titus is potentially an asset lategame if she's town and she's been very active and up to date. I think she's a lot more likely to be scum than not, but like.. if I'm wrong I'm going to feel like a huge asshole and I don't really want to deal with the heat on a personal level if I'm wrong at the moment.

I think ffery and mastin [who I'm really hoping is town] are fallible and could be wrong, but they both realistically have more experience with Titus than I do. I don't have teammates backing me up in this game. I'm in the middle of my exams. I'm not in the best mindset for things right now. Please excuse me if I'm starting to feel unsure/hesitant to bare the burden of a potential mislynch on someone like Titus. q.q

I like this. That makes me feel a lot better about trying to improve day 1. I suck at day 1. I make no bones about that. We do have a fair amount of negative energy, but this also gives us some things to work from and some things for me to look into tomorrow. I think at this point we could all use a bit of cooling off and coming in with a fresh perspective. Maybe you'll still see me the same way, maybe you won't. There are things people want me to review as well (like my scumread on Singer). I don't believe you're scumreading her, so if we could talk about her actions tomorrow (minus those that center on me), that might be a good way to start.

[Bulbazak]

Voting someone because another unflipped scumread of yours doesn't want them lynched is pretttty awful titus.

Awful? Yes. Scummy? No. I think a lot of people are trying to push this wagon on awful rather than scummy, and I just have to wonder at the timing of it.

Also Titus is probably scum. Aronis seems like a mislynch like TSO was and both TTH and titus jumped on him while UT is on titus.

Your posts seem to be getting progressively worse, and I'm not sure how to feel about that.

The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

Eh..., possibly, YES, NO, torn on this one

@Oversoul, how am I approaching negative utlity?

The sheer quantity of your posts is enough to drown town driven thought. It creates confusion and a smokescreen that the scum are better able to hide in. I don't mean to be offensive, but the content quality of your posts is not enough to offset the benefits given to scum.

pedit:

People went after TSO because he was an easy lynch. He was not really connected with the game and that made him vulnerable and an easy target. Plus, I think he was in the out-group. No one wants to lynch their friends on the first day. It is a subconcious action that seems to generally hold true, at least across the games I have played/observed. I don't think TSO had many friends in this game.

Aronis is in a similar position. I think Aronis is also in the out-group. I think Aronis is also disconnected from the game and that makes him a vulnerable/easy target. The information gained based on Aronis's interactions is negligible, just like the information gained from TSO's interactions was negligible. They both did not have connections because they were disconnected from the game. I think both TSO and Aronis are students and a lot of people seem to be forgetting that right now is finals season for American education.

Fferylt also endorsed the TSO wagon with a lot of force, so Fferylt supporting this wagon is not exactly the biggest vote of confidence. I actually really disagree with Fferylt on a lot of her reads/positions this game. I also think that she is doing a poor job of leading this town. I fear we are headed into a dark tunnel with no escape as long as Fferylt is at the helm. I think this is a function of the fact that Fferylt is an IC right now, which tends to skew perceptions of not only the IC itself, but also the other people in the game. No one really is trying to critically discuss the game with Fferylt so when shitty ideas like the TSO wagon are proposed no one is around to say "No, that is actually a shitty idea".

I actually find it disconcerting that we do not have much more interaction from Fferylt's teammates about this game given the fact that they are ALL DEAD. I would expect they would want to funnel all of their thoughts into the game through her given her confirmed town status. But that is a topic for another time. I know I have been neglecting my own teammates' games.

Mollie wants to marry this post.

We are NOT going to waste our second lynch on another person like TSO. This means that Aronis is off the table for lynch today.
The only people that we should be discussing for lynch are ActionDan, Espeonage, Singersigner, Titus, and Untrod Tripod.

"We're only lynching between these people because

I'm

scumreading them."
Titus, and now you?

Excuse me, this goes out to everyone in this game: Who the fuck do you people think you are?

That is really not what he said. Are you even reading this game, because everything you've posted lately seems to point to you not doing so.

Well my Bulba read hasn't really changed at all because he hasn't posted that much recently. [and if he did, titus probably drowned it out]

What does that have to do with anything? When was the last time you revisited that read? Was it at any time during the major day?

Sure, some are trying to form a townbloc but they are doing it with the wrong players and for the wrong reasons.

Who are the right players, and what are the right reasons?

well yeah, oversoul is just bullshitting and trying to get in good with titus and ffery for some stupid reason

I have a problem with just about everything in this sentence. It seems like a low blow and meant solely to discredit. Having a hard time seeing the town motivation here.

(10) T S O: Titus, Untrod Tripod, Gammagooey, singersigner, mastin2, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6, ActionDan, GuyInFreezer, ChannelDelibird [Lynch!]

We've gone back and forth about you. Also about CDB. Of the players on the TSO wagon, we can't see most of them as remotely scum.

There are 5 votes on that wagon that I really don't like. I know they're not all scum, but surely you can see the problem with you not seeing any of them being "remotely scum". Heck, simple VCA theory should tell you to reset.

titus votes are terrible.

I want to trust Nacho I really do but sometimes he can be wrong and Titus trued to appeal to by emotion and I'm so sad over it so can you see my point of view?

How is asking you questions appealing to your emotion?

So most of this hinges on me being scum with CDB? And the fact that CDB didn't give straight up reads? Either you're just not trying and failing at being town or you are scum grasping for reasons. I think you're scum.

That is so far from what she said that I'm starting to wonder if you're doing this on purpose.

I pointed out that people were in prod range because like Oversoul already stated, Titus is/was reaching negative utility at this point, and people were falling behind, being absent, etc. I've been very vocal about my disappointment in such. But now that you bring it up again, it's particularly interesting because Titus claimed to need a wagon on TTH to bring her back and engaged in the game, yet no mention when she went missing again. Another example of where I think Titus is just talking out of her ass.

I think the time of day also has a lot to do with it. When she voted TTH for pressure, we only had minor day information and no pressure based on lynch wagons. Now that's not the case, and there's a lot more to go off of. Also, we're near deadline, and she's townreading TTH. Why in the heck would she pressure vote TTH at this point?

With regards to the claiming issue: did you not want two lynches? I prioritized accordingly. I felt as though at the very least, a town PR would make it a priority to claim so close to losing the opportunity of another lynch that without it, it didn't seem like we were missing anything because she was either VT or scum.

I had a problem with your suggestion that we line up both lynches at once. This ignored the obvious utility of lynch 1 in giving information to select lynch 2. Your solution, though, was to limit information, select both lynches at once, and lynch in succession. I'm having a hard time seeing the town motivation in that.

What about the Titus wagon is scummy? You don't have to say because I'm on it; I think that's implied by your read of me. I am but one person, so I'd like to know exactly what/who you have a problem with?

It sprung up quickly based off the idea of "I don't understand Titus, and that annoys me" and ran counter to yours, essentially defusing it. There's nothing about the way that wagon built up that sits right with me.

@Cheetory: I think your premise is flawed, and that you're taking that premise, forming a conclusion, and then working backwards and fitting everything towards that conclusion. First off, do you really think Titus is leader material? Titus can barely get people to pay attention to her at best of times, shouting at them in Team Mafia is not going to do much. In that regard, finding town and focusing on team building is a very sound and pro-town strategy. Scum will be wanting to tear apart, not put together, and regardless of what you might think, finding other town is going to be key to winning the game. And that's not to say that Titus isn't scumhunting. She's been very clear about who she finds scummy and who she thinks is town, and she's questioned several players to understand them better. Sure she's not super pushing her scumreads, but we're close to deadline, and she's focusing on working with other town and securing a lynch that everyone can agree on. I'm not really seeing what's scummy here.

I have no self-control. -.-

Explain to me how it's scum motivated.

Why does townTitus detect? Why does townTitus detect and casually claim? Think about it. If you still don't get it, think about it some more.

Just because you chose to detect during the minor night doesn't mean that you're scum. There's actually several pro-town reasons to do so. Heck, I detected during the night, and I'm not scum. And Titus detecting TSO, who she was scumreading, is not scummy either, no matter how much you try to tell us it is.

Nope. Still don't get it. Traces happen during the minor nights, so I'm not seeing how Esp being traced would put him in any danger.

I'm considered a townread by some people in this game [and before you start screaming and shouting about how I'm not, go away kthx]. If Espeonage gets traced to me on Minor Day 2 then he looks like scum, much in the same manner TTH was put under scrutiny for. If you can't understand that, then I honestly don't understand what more to say to you. Claiming his action now in a harmless "I don't know what I'm doing" manner makes him look like VI instead of scum.

Okay, I think I'm starting to see what the problem is. You're locked in this false conclusion that only scum have a reason to try to figure out other players' signs. Ergo, scum will only detect and town will only trace. That's wrong, and you need to get that out of your system right now. On the bright side, I think this makes you extremely likely to be town, although extremely misguided and seeing the game through the wrong lens.

I actually think Ika townreading her is way stranger. If you were to look at possible buddying, it should be from Ika, not from Titus. I take the fact they've connected and are trying to work together very promising.

ika isn't townreading her?

Look again. Most of those posts have been GiF.

The timing of Esp's suspicions were off. He did so right after Mollie called Tammy scum, essentially piggybacking off of that. His attack was opportunistic. Was anyone else casting suspicion at Tammy during that time for those reasons? No, so Titus is not in the same boat, and her paranoia is a little bit more in line from what I'd expect coming from the type of player Titus is. She's way too fast to draw connections, even when there are none, and it naturally makes her paranoid. I actually take that paranoia as a good sign.

Except this wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about people taking potshots at Tammy for replacing.

You asked me what was different between Titus's suspicion of Tammy and Esp's. I told you. Don't go changing the goal posts on me now.

Fuck this game.
UNVOTE:
If CDB flips town I hope we all get to throw a party at the uselessness of all of the nothing we'll have to analyze D2 because of all the people just blanksheeping ffery.

Until you unvoted, Titus's wagon was leading. You going woe is me concerning the CDB wagon and not getting your way doesn't hold as much weight here.

(6)

Titus:

Espeonage, Cheetory6, GuyInFreezer, vezokpiraka, Aronis, singersigner [L-4]

Just going to reiterate how bad the composition of this wagon is. Someone will definitely want to revisit this d2. I'm thinking there's 2 scum here.

@Ffery: Too tired to do more concerning my Singer read, but suffice to say I didn't like Zar's reaction to Tammy. I felt the switch was heavily scum motivated, unlike the others we've seen (also pay attention that nothing was said about Empire, but the TTH switch, which happened at the same time was heavily criticized.). This is the game that is weighted the most, and is therefore the one that teams want to make sure they win. If Zar was town, there would not be the same amount of urgency, but if he was scum and was failing, he would need a massive bail out. In comes Empire, and while I admit his reads list is good, he never really follows up on it or pushes it hard. In fact, I remember him being on the sidelines when it came down to the bane. Also note that my bane wagon was his counter wagon, and even though he was most agreed on to be baned, my wagon sprung up as the "only choice" rather quickly and with no explanation. Empire's replace out was null. Singer's play here has been lackluster. I see her posts being very wordy but with minimal content. Her reads are extremely basic, and her cases are nothing new or spectacular. Her primary focus was on lynching TTH for "information", even though there were other lynches that could have done the same. Watch as she never drops the read, but keeps adding BS reasoning to it, which again, was nothing new and had already been refuted. Her final reason was to force a claim, aka rolefishing, as she seemed focused more on finding out TTH's role, rather than alignment. Her early fight with Titus was useless, as she really avoided giving a stance on her. It was mainly noise meant to make her look busy. And wouldn't you know, by the time she actually got a read, Titus was being poked more and more. Finally, she plants a vote, but only when a wagon takes off, relieving the pressure from her. Take a good look at her case, Ffery. It's garbage. She's stretching for her points, and you know it. Also note how Singer reacted to Gamma when he asked her to give a read on him. Now, if she was town and thought it was a trap, or something of the sort, I'd expect her to straight up refuse, or say "screw you", but she doesn't. Instead, she dances around the question, refusing to be locked into a read, because if she is, she will be held accountable to that read and progression later. That's not a town thought process, and you freaking know it. Finally, she throws suspicion at Oversoul for Tammy's switch. You should know why that's scummy, Ffery. Your team was in that game, as was mine and Regfan. You know the story there. Regfan knows the story there. And you think for one minute he'd really be suspicious of the slot knowing that if he was town? Heck no! That was fake, Ffery. It was a feeler meant to see if they could tear down Oversoul's obv. town status. I'm actually baffled that more people didn't pile on top of that, but I guess it pays to be oblivious. And that's just what I can think of with a sleep-addled brain. So tell me, Ffery, why the crap are you town reading her?

Vote ChannelDelibird

Balls in your court.

@Mod

: I'm going out of town and will be V/LA until April 27.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi guys, I'm going to read and write what I can during work over the next few hours but here's a message from CES to ffery, paraphrased:

When it comes to pushing someone who looks town but who hasn't posted super-often in a 150-page game with this many players, something must be off with how you scumhunt. CES was hoping that your push on TSO indicated that you actually had something but now you're coming after me, he thinks you're just settling for easier lynches and crossing your fingers, without the conviction to actually lynch scummy people.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, people "sheeping ffery" onto me who've read the back end of her iso should be ashamed of themselves. If you've given up agency so much that

that's

the strength of read that you're sheeping, then I think that's pretty pathetic, and this is coming from someone who would have hammered almost literally anyone had they been in TSO's position when we finally got that far.

[ChannelDelibird]

My main approach to posting over the next couple of hours is probably going to be 'scan the last few pages for mentions of me to which I need to respond before I latch onto anything else' for obvious reasons, so let me know if there's something that urgently needs my attention that I might not see by looking for the word 'CDB'.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, the wagons I could get behind at this point are Shadoweh, CDB, AD, (probably Titus but it kind of makes me sick now), UT, and...meh, I dunno...I feel like I'm townreading everyone. -_-

Have you actually got a reason to suspect me beyond "boo hoo he won Retrospective Rehash"? Given how Empire felt like he was trying to figure me out a bit, and that your slot is one of the ones with whom I have interacted the most directly, it is really frustrating to see you come in and just take this stance.

[ChannelDelibird]

i am so tired of taking this game seriously so i am taking this opportunity to mispell everything i can for the next 24 hours

esp dat seams fiyn

wat aboot cdb tho

i jst warnt to lynnch cdb

fuckin' why? Does the 999 micro come into it?