White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[theelkspeaks]

I think Aneninen was mixing me up with someone else there - in Elements Mafia (where all games are opens or semi-opens with unlimited private communication between anyone who chooses to) setup spec and attempts to break the game are pretty common, as are attempts to coordinate power roles to "solve" the game. I've generally been one of the advocates for actually scumhunting, though occasionally used what spec there was to my advantage, and when I moderated a game there, I tried to push the trend towards less "breakable" games by introducing safeclaims to the meta. The mafia won that game and town complained that safeclaims were unfair afterwards *facepalm*, but ideas for making the game less breakable have persisted, so I'm happy with that.

As for my team now, Aronis read part of this game but is still going. He thinks my BBT town read might be wrong, and also suspects ika, with CES being null and anti/tammy/anka being town reads.

I agree that CES's iso is difficult to read; I'm still trying to sort him.

[Antihero]

oh cool, anen's scum

[Ankamius]

Walk me through it, Anti. I don't like how much he's over blowing my early play, but there's not much else I can get a read on in his ISO.

[Antihero]

look at the reads

May be town: Zach, BBT, Regfan (?), TheElkSpeaks (???)
No idea: Antihero, CheeryDog
May be scum: Oversoul, Ankamius, Ika, Cogito Ergo Sum (?)

shit soup

[Tammy]

Regfan - eh, we're not disagreeing on ika, so I don't think it really matters or I'd point it out.

I'll talk more about bbt in a bit, but I'm not "town" reading him now. I did like that post I said sounded town because it sounded so off the cuff and frustrated. I still like my early read, but with everyone telling me I'm wrong I just kinda put it on the back burner and am trying to be objective about that. But I also know that one of my biggest problems in mafia is doubting myself when other people seem so convicted, which is why I've been trying to make sure I feel good about my town reads and work from there.

I'm trying to decide what I think about his change of read in my slot. I thought that Oversoul looked pretty town yesterday before we switched anyway, but eh confbias, and it's not like Oversoul replaced out and doesn't have a vested interest in my slot anymore so the effort on replacing out reason isn't the strongest reason to change a read on my slot. I can see it though I guess, but I was a bit concerned that it was becasue it was me replacing in. Bbt has never played with me though so I don't know that he would know what a pain in the ass I am to deal with ^_^ though I'm sure some of his team does, and looking back at context both you and zach had already pointed out that me replacing in made this a town slot, so.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.18

Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee, Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog (3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
ika (1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - Aneninen, Tammy

With 11 alive, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 25, 2015, at 4:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-04-25 16:30:00).

Moderator Comments

BlueBloodedToffee is V/LA until April 23.

Please refer to the rules in this thread or the main Team Mafia thread regarding the discussion of other, ongoing games.

[Aneninen]

On my way...

Catching-up, next part

Spoiler:

(1) Cogito Ergo Sum's vote for Aeronaut in 501. I posted in my previous catch-up that anyone voting for Aeronaut while he was on V/LA would be FoS. Also, the comment below:

"Ika, Psyche, get it done."

– At that time, three players were not voting: Ika, Psyche and Ankamius. Why didn't mention CES Ankamius too???

(2) Oversoul, 508 – an unvote for Aeronaut and

"Tammy wants the chance to get caught up with our team's games before anymore of them go into night"

– hmmm... may he have been genuinely unsure about the Aeronaut-wagon? (Unsure, he said in 512 that he had misunderstood Tammy and he revotes.)

(3) Ika's 511 – posting about willing to hammer and he wants to perform Slayer's Gambit. (I think he mentioned this before.) I don't think a Slayer's Gambit works (if it works at all?) if it's announced before performing it. So, it's pigeon poop. He put Aeronaut at L–1 in 515 and unvoted in 519. I wonder, why.

(4) Llamar's 523

"He did also say that you're town AH <3 Still hoping for Aero Ank Cheery team."

(He meant Nacho.) Assuming that scums aren't bussing this read may be important.

(5) Oversoul, 532

"I don't like this at all. I think this is the type of behavior that Anti scum would do."

Referring to 516/517. This is pigeon poop. It's technically 100% that Antihero got ninja-prodded there, check out the time stamps! On the other hand, 533 gave me town vibes. (I can't really explain it but it felt as if I read town-myself. Without the pigeons. Eg. that example with made-up names.) And Oversould pointed out something important in 546. CES had posted in 430 not to hurry and in 501 he'd been urging others to lynch Aeronaut. 584, CES's answer explains nothing about this topic.

(6) BBT, 551

"Agree with Anti, back end of Aero wagon (CES, Oversoul, ika) is pretty scummy."

– so it's not only me who FoS-es the last names on that wagon... (Although, note to self: at this point I'm much less confident about my scumread on Oversoul, see the previous point.)

(7) Ika's urging my predecessor to vote for Aeronaut in 557. 563 is ??? (It seems that even my kitty doesn't understand Ika's nearby posts. He's just paw-ed the keyboard. Thanks, Feliz, you're really helpful now! <3 ) BBT said in 573

"You only started interacting with me when I said I thought you could be scum."

and this seems to be true.)

(8) BBT's 579 is ick. However, his next post is a good point again. (Also 582.) (My intuition says when I'm reading this interaction: what if they're faking...?)

(9) Regfan's 585 and Antihero's 589 – I think I understand Regfan's part but Antihero's answer matches his town-game which I saw once before.

(10) Ankamius, 592–595 – shadowing a possible Ika-wagon. Telling that he was reading Aeronaut. Posted very little content about him later. And jumping on the wagon in 598. CheeryDog pointed out something similar, I guess, in 647.

(11) Cogito Ergo Sum, 602 –

"When I check this game tomorrow morning, I'm counting on there being an Aeronaut scumflip waiting for me. The people pushing for ika are a pair of scumbags and someone who needs to listen to his team mate. It's time to end this day."

– The first part seems to be fake and the next part is a kind of defense on Ika.

(12) Ankamius, 616, Zach, 627 – Zach seems to be right here. (As far as I can understand, he unvoted because of Ankamius's post?)

(13) Aeronaut, 634 – this was his last post. He promised more reads "tomorrow night". 08th Apr.; 10:29 pm (CET). Those reads never arrived.

(14) Zach joined the Aeronaut-wagon in 639. I don't like this, especially after (13). But, as far as I can remember, there haven't been anything else against Zach.

(15) Psyche's 652 could have been the ingame context for Wgeurts's answer. If anyone's still interested in.

(16) TheElkSpeaks, 658 – this part of his post:

"Copper is concerned about the fact that the Aero wagon was done while he was RL away for a few days"

is very true! I pointed out it as well. This part:

"and with it being a counterwagon to ika and Psyche, wondering whether the inherent delay for Aero to return made him a good wagon choice for scum because the time it took for Aero to respond to it would dispel pressure from ika/Psyche."

is not really. There were a lot of talk about Ika but he was never wagoned hard. Although, I can imagine some "pressure dispelling" here. As for my predecessor's wagon, there had been two votes parking on it for ages, Antihero's and ...Elk's. Noone else apart from them. Scums tend to park their votes on a non-moving wagon. Although, neither Antihero nor Elk seems to be too scummy at this point so this may be a coincidence. Elk jumped on the Aero wagon in 665 although he posted that he'd found him scummy eg. in 658.

(17) Ika hammered in 668. The hammering time was 09th Apr. 6:01 pm. Less than one day, so it's possible that someone wanted to haste that wagon so as to prevent Aeronaut posting. He "got the impression" that Ika is town, Regfan is scum. This would FoS Regfan, but he had been on that wagon way before Aeronaut's post. As for the Ika-town read. What if Ika is indeed town and someone wanted Aeronaut not to post, why? (And yes, I know that I'm speculating right now.)

________

End of Day1, I'll continue from here.

Changes in my reads: Elk seems to be a bit more town than before (although his late-wagon-jump makes me think), BBT is a bit less town. Cogito Ergo Sum looks more scummy while Oversoul is much less scummy. Ankamius seems to be the scummiest player (including the fact that Llamar named him as a possible scum.) I still don't know what to think about CheeryDog.

Yet again, my reads may change a lot later because I still haven't read Day2!

[Tammy]

oh cool, anen's scum

There was a part in his last catchup (before the one just made) where he kinda interrupted his catchup to post some thing that was mentioned in his team thread that I thought sounded town.

[Tammy]

It's in Post 1077 at the end of the first spoiler.

[Aneninen]

Some answers.

Yarr. Oversoul's second wall was really solid.
Did Espeonage or T-bone comment on that at all?

Which wall do you mean? 437 or 441? Because, after I've caught up I'll read it if needed.
I don't think my other team mates commented anything about that. I'm saying "I don't think" because there are some posts I can't decide which game they belong to, or if they belong to any particular game at all. I'll give an example if needed.

A) I want this Elk meta of 'breaking the game' ect. from you and B) I want you to explain to me how you're reading his play here as "breaking the game by setup spec", he's doing the opposite of that here, he voted Oversoul BECASUE Oversoul used setup spec and suggested it's usage is a scum-tell.

I've checked it and it was someone else. Sorry, it happened last summer and I remembered only the name that Elk was there. So, this part should be ignored.

I think Aneninen was mixing me up with someone else there - in Elements Mafia (where all games are opens or semi-opens with unlimited private communication between anyone who chooses to) setup spec and attempts to break the game are pretty common, as are attempts to coordinate power roles to "solve" the game. I've generally been one of the advocates for actually scumhunting, though occasionally used what spec there was to my advantage, and when I moderated a game there, I tried to push the trend towards less "breakable" games by introducing safeclaims to the meta. The mafia won that game and town complained that safeclaims were unfair afterwards *facepalm*, but ideas for making the game less breakable have persisted, so I'm happy with that.

Yeah, as I've just mentioned, I mixed you up with Rootranger. Elements Mafia #39 and #40, both of you were in those games.
(I actually found the link of MafiaScum on that page so I signed up here. And stopped playing there because of all those break-able setups.)

look at the reads

May be town: Zach, BBT, Regfan (?), TheElkSpeaks (???)
No idea: Antihero, CheeryDog
May be scum: Oversoul, Ankamius, Ika, Cogito Ergo Sum (?)

shit soup

Half cooked soup, as I mentioned. Those were the reads after the first 20 pages, that'swhy I posted the part which you didn't quote:

"Keep in mind that my reads are essentially vague and may change a lot later!"

.
Before you ask: this goes for my current reads too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I still like my early read, but with everyone telling me I'm wrong I just kinda put it on the back burner and am trying to be objective about that.

Why do you care so much if other people doubt your read?

I want to know why you were scum reading me.

I'm trying to decide what I think about his change of read in my slot. I thought that Oversoul looked pretty town yesterday before we switched anyway, but eh confbias, and it's not like Oversoul replaced out and doesn't have a vested interest in my slot anymore so the effort on replacing out reason isn't the strongest reason to change a read on my slot. I can see it though I guess, but I was a bit concerned that it was becasue it was me replacing in. Bbt has never played with me though so I don't know that he would know what a pain in the ass I am to deal with ^_^ though I'm sure some of his team does, and looking back at context both you and zach had already pointed out that me replacing in made this a town slot, so.

I feel like I should make it clear that reputation means nothing to me.

You can't be that bad; I've dealt with Wake88.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Which wall do you mean? 437 or 441? Because, after I've caught up I'll read it if needed.

441. 437 is quite a bit more meandering and not as good.

What did you think of the ikawagon?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'd like some more posts and/or Cheery Dogvotes.

[Ankamius]

mollie doesn't think she can read CES even on a good day, thinks that CD is a player that is much better than he looks and just needs to be engaged, and thinks BBT is town right now (doesn't think the aggression is scum) although keeping an eye on him to see if his play deteriorates is advised.

[Tammy]

Tammy, you're probably that there is some intensity missing from my play compared to what I used to have. That's part of why I stopped playing. Looking at this game, I know I'm taking all sorts of shortcuts - I'm not questioning my own reads enough; I'm intentionally not considering Regfanscum until he's survived one Night he shouldn't; I haven't looked at BBT's scum meta because everyone calls him town despite my gut niggles; I'm not thinking enough about Ank's claim of being bad at scum (even as I type this, I don't particularly want to do it); I got carried away with the Aeronautread because everything seemed to line up so nicely.

I used to think my play deteriorated because I had such a long town streak at the end of it but I realize now that the essential problem was probably that I started to rate my own reads highly enough that I didn't feel motivated to scrutinize them. Rekindling the spark is not going to be as easy as just playing another White Flag set-up but at least I'm definitely enjoying the company.

I still think I'm right about Cheery Dog though.

I want to town read this so much, but you are a sneaky bastard. :/

[Tammy]

Tammy you here? if so can you come in

Sorry. I was long asleep by this point. I'm here now for a little bit. I had a drink when I got home and will probably pass out soon though.

[Tammy]

I still like my early read, but with everyone telling me I'm wrong I just kinda put it on the back burner and am trying to be objective about that.

Why do you care so much if other people doubt your read?

I don't *care so much* and I'm not sure I actually implied so much so I'm not sure your interpretation.

Mafia is a team game however, and I do take other people's reads into account with mine. As far as I can remember, I am the absolute only person in this game who thinks you're scum. When every single other person is saying I'm wrong, I'm going to take a step back and consider their thoughts.

I want to know why you were scum reading me.

I'm probably going to bed soon, but I was reading through some stuff and want to look at it a little more sober tomorrow, but I've recently read some stuff that I don't particularly like, so I'll explain it later.

But, can you tell me what your cheery dog read is and why? That'd be swell.

[Tammy]

Trying to keep "tells" to yourself is kind of lame but fine. I'd rather you focus on explaining what about BBT's recent posts read town to you because that's not how I've read his interaction with CD / his recent posts with the exception of his response to me so far which I can at least see partly where he's coming from in.

His recent interactions with you are complete bullshit by the way. I don't think he actually believes any of the crap he's spewing.

I need to go to sleep though!

[Tammy]

Although before I fall asleep I will say that I don't think anyone who actually signed up for team mafia and has some modicum of intelligence actually believes that it's scummy to voluntarily offer up reads from your team when working with your team is part of the whole purpose of team mafia. And considering the fact that anyone part of a team would be, if being a proper team mate is looking at other games would see that sop in these games is to actually share your teammates reads, no one could actually hold that position that it's scummy to volunteer those reads. I could see evaluating how those reads are delivered, and maybe looking at how llamarble stoked about the difference between town and scum delivered reads and working out from there to try to determine alignmeny, but the generic "I'm better because I only deliver when asked" when that's actually the scummier avenue is so wtf I don't believe he can actuslly believe that.

Not to mention that if Regfan has enough meta on bbt that he's able to give a meta read on bbt, there is no way that bbt is so unaware of regfans playstyle that he actually believes that Regfan is using his teammates reads as a means of going back on his reads and using them as a crutch.

I just don't think he actually believes that.

[Regfan]

We're under two days till deadline, people need to pick up their activity right now and actually take a stance on CES and CD, anyone not voting one of them is going to lead towards us no lynching which would be fucking idiotic at this stage and hint; the correct vote here is CD.

Tammy, your point re; the fact that he should know that I'm not going stand back and trust someone elses reads entirely over my own given that he's played with me before and knows how stubborn/insistent I can be is a fair point but he's just going to respond to that with "I dont meta" ect. ect. which is beyond stupid. What I did understand/like of his recent interaction with me is that I can see how he might see CES/Me being a scum-team in that my town-read and explanation on CES could be boiled down to gut I suppose and I'm not one that really uses gut often and often don't trust my gut. We need to carve out a time in the next 24 hours to both be online and start nailing down some reads; you know full well where my heads at/what my reads are, which of them do you strongly disagree with and why.

Anti the only read in Anens reads section of the Post 1077 that I find scummy is the town-read on Elk since if he really did mix Elk up as someone else and believe that Elk was someone that "breaks games" as town then Elk voting people attempting to break the game here should have been a huge scum tell for him, not a reason to call him town. I do like elements of his most recent catch up in Post 1106 specifically his mention of two votes being parked on him but him town reading both players that did so. I'm willing to let him finish catching up but he needs to really speed it up.

I don't think Tammys "He stopped to mention something from the team thread" point of Anen is a town-tell though given the sheer amount that CES has pushed him to post teams thoughts in the thread. In fact I'm slightly bugged by his "Wgeurts checked the Aeronaut-wagon and a couple of pages of the game and said something like

"I don't know them personally but Regfan, Llamarable and CES look town, thus Aeronaut can be scum"."

element in Post 1077 given that Psyches answer when I asked him in Post 680 whether they wanted him to join the wagon becasue a) They town-read people on the wagon or b) They thought the players on the wagon were competent and his answer in Post 681 was effectively b while Anen's is a.

Actually yeah, after typing all of that Anen is probably scum here too. Also don't like how his recent posts look like setting up to vote CES over CD here.

As for my team now, Aronis read part of this game but is still going. He thinks my BBT town read might be wrong, and also suspects ika

, with CES being null and anti/tammy/anka being town reads.

I'd like him to explain both reads in depth because I could get maybe reading one of them as scum (BBT out of the two, Ika is incredibly ObvTown, badtown but Obvtown nonetheless) but I don't understand how he could be reading the

both

of them as scum. Also kind of don't like your continued lack of stance on CES, sure you might not find him "easy" to read but you have to have some thoughts on him or be leaning one way due to something.

[Regfan]

Recent Update:

Town (S->W): Zach, Tammy, Ika, [Gap], CES, Elk, Anti
Null/Undecided: BBT
Scum (S->W) CD, [Gap], Anen, Ank

@Tammy, I'll be back in a few hours (3-4) and be online again in about 15 hours, do either of those work for you to be online in?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't think Tammys "He stopped to mention something from the team thread" point of Anen is a town-tell though given the sheer amount that CES has pushed him to post teams thoughts in the thread. In fact I'm slightly bugged by his "Wgeurts checked the Aeronaut-wagon and a couple of pages of the game and said something like "I don't know them personally but Regfan, Llamarable and CES look town, thus Aeronaut can be scum"." element in Post 1077 given that Psyches answer when I asked him in Post 680 whether they wanted him to join the wagon becasue a) They town-read people on the wagon or b) They thought the players on the wagon were competent and his answer in Post 681 was effectively b while Anen's is a.

It definitely reads to me as if Psyche was being loose with the truth, yes.

[Cheery Dog]

This my last post of the day probably, too much Anzac day stuff going on (also a scout camp)

and since I currently don't have anything personal to add, there's nothing here.

[Cheery Dog]

Except that

Kats

keeps bugging me to repost their questions since they didn't get answered.

@

Tammy

, why did you want to know if I'd received stuff for others than just gamma, and why did you think I might have been?

@

CES

, what is your actual case on me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't *care so much* and I'm not sure I actually implied so much so I'm not sure your interpretation.

Mafia is a team game however, and I do take other people's reads into account with mine. As far as I can remember, I am the absolute only person in this game who thinks you're scum. When every single other person is saying I'm wrong, I'm going to take a step back and consider their thoughts.

You care enough to not pursue the read. You can consider other people's thoughts, but if you don't believe them, then you should be pursuing your own read.

But, can you tell me what your cheery dog read is and why? That'd be swell.

I'm gonna say CD is town. Because CES is pushing him. And because I'm now unsure on Reg and he is also pushing him.

His recent interactions with you are complete bullshit by the way. I don't think he actually believes any of the crap he's spewing.

Well, you're wrong.

I 100% believe what I'm saying.

You don't see that I'm evaluating Reg's teams reads? I'm gonna go ahead and assume for arguments sake that you only skimmed what I said about Reg.

So, go read what I actually said.