Mod Error Mafia [TM2015] - Game Over

[TierShift]

Reck denying he was linking them shows he just doesn't remember doing it and points to town

I disagree that forgetting stuff makes you town. That"s preposterous. What did he deny he linked?

[shos]

no.

and woop! gf surprise! later!

[Wisdom]

so youre telling me im the only one who will go and check whether I was linking two players or not before replying "i never linked those two players" when I'm scum?

[Wisdom]

no.

k then not me

[Rhinox]

I liked that NS tried to figure out a way to find out if anyone was lying about their previous roles. He's the only one who tried to make the previous role claiming actually relevant to this game. Even though (and possibly especially because) it didn't really work out it looked like a genuine attempt at doing something pro-town and I like how he was basically just "meh this isn't really working" and moved on.

It just doesn't look like scum would go through the effort of doing and then not have a real plan to do anything with. I don't think the point was to call Cabd town because if I'm remembering correctly he didn't actually call Cabd town. He said if it could be proven that someone lied then that would be an indication that Cabd was town and scum wanted to try to screw with whatever analysis he hoped to do with the information.

I disagree. Scum have nothing to so gamestart, and they have to start making up stuff even worse than town until they actually have something to go on with. This is a really easy discussion topic, which easily looks like you're doing something - because you are - but the something is of questionable relation to this game, if any. What *possible* scenario can cause scum to lie in regards to their previous roles? we're talking experienced mods here, there's almost no way at all ever that anything could ever be useful for this game from the other.
Besides, this was a theme presented to the thread by cabd, and NS just picked on it and went with the flow.

He indeed was the only one who tried to make this relevant to the game - but he failed, right? so basically he was wasting everyone's time?

compare to:

me; seeing the score thingie, and trying to figure out if this is of any use in this game. this has been talked about maybe - 1 page - in total. and I took my shit and kept with the analysis in my team thread. This lead me nowhere too, but hey, I didn't waste town's time for it.

We're probably just going to disagree here then. Nobody has anything to talk about to start the game, but that doesn't matter. This wasn't something NS started. It wasn't even the only thing he was talking about. He tried something and it didn't get results and if the only thing you have to say about that is that it was a waste of time then you are a very shallow player. The thought process behind what he did is much more meaningful that what he said or what results were achieved or not. It's the thought process that feels town to me.

It's very disingenuous to compare what NS did to your thing with score and especially to throw in a "see this is why my score thing is town because I didn't waste anyone's time". First off you were begging to discuss the score thing in thread over and over again and the only reason you didn't, as you put it, waste everyone's time was because people told you it was useless to discuss. Secondly, I can't see a clear thought process behind you wanting to figure out the score. It just reminds me of a step 1 step 2 ... profit! joke. If you're town there are 9 other townies who saw the score and just shrugged, basically. Ceph and I briefly thought about whether the score was tied to votes and we had already figured out it wasn't before you even came in and started on about it. I'm getting sidetracked because we're supposed to be talking about NS here but since you brought it up it is just a terrible, misrepresented comparison.

Relatedly, I do think it is likely there were lies in the previous roles because nobody claimed to be vanilla town, and my previous role knew a vanilla townie existed. Reck's claim was the closest but was not a vanilla claim so... :shrug: Not sure what to do with this information/revelation at the moment.

If we brought this up, so let's dig into it a titbit further. Can anyone make a list of the previous roles claims? short and easy, if anyone has the time and patience. are you SURE that your role said there was a VT?

Yes, my PM said I knew that a vanilla townie existed and was aligned with the town. Ironically, NS already started the list or a partial list (so much for your wasting everyone's time argument >.>).

cabd- mailman
who- 1-shot bp miller?
reck- informed townie
ceph- sui 2shot reflex doc
copp- flavor conditional cop
ts- macho framing bg
rhinox- limited rolecop
t-bone- flavor cop who could tell if someone killed
ns- roleblocker/roleblocker bomb
icerink- tracker
lld- sanity not-guaranteed cop
kats- JOAT (A bunch of investigative roles) who had to declare their target during the day
shos- lurker-doublevoter

There is also NS's own claim. I believe he is truly hated because it's too easily testable even by accident to be something to fake. The condition if true also points to being town because there is no reason to give a "except in lylo" condition to a hated scum. The whole reason for the condition is to prevent scum from being able to immediately end the game in lylo. And then I kinda fall down a rabbit hole of would the mod give the condition to a scum just because? or would scumNS fake the condition to make the claim seem town and/or to prevent getting policy lynched? my head just kinda starts spinning a little bit. Thats why I don't put TOO much emphasis on NS's claim but it does influence my read of NS ever so slightly in the town direction for it. Does this make any sense at all?

That's just wrong.
a Hated claim can be tested only if someone is hammering you. so, if they find out you're lying, you're dead already. that makes nothing. Also, he claimed conditionally, and did NOT claim the condition when he did(yet). so in case this was tested and found to be a lie, he could just say "oh, condition". I don't know if site policy is usually TO lynch hated peeps or not, but either way the condition gives him an exit.

I didn't mean testable in the traditional "hey lets test if NS is lying" because yeah thats obviously dumb. I just meant that there is no advantage I can see in claiming hated as scum if you're not actually hated. There's nothing to be gained from it other than not getting voted to L-1 unless people really want to lynch you. All I was trying to say is that town or scum, there is no reason to believe NS is not hated.

Regarding the condition I disagree with your analysis. It would be my policy to lynch a hated player sometime before lylo so yeah initially when the condition came out I was like whoa is NS just trying to prevent the eventual policy lynch from being necessary? But then I thought why wouldn't he have just claimed the condition straight away? What benefit was there in waiting? I mean if its day 4 and we're deciding its time to policy lynch NS and then he's all like "yeah my condition is I'm not hated in lylo so you don't have to policy lynch me" well that wouldn't fly. That's like claiming miller after you've been investigated. There's no advantage at all IMO to delay claiming the condition as scum. And when I asked NS why he didn't claim his condition straight off and he answered that he didn't know I just thought that was a town answer. What kind of scum can't see that not claiming the condition right away would be seen as bad? And its can't even be that he only realized after the fact that he needed a condition because he hinted at the condition straight off. He clearly didn't think it through, which is either town, or really really poor scum play. And if it is really really poor scum play then it means theres a really really poor scum team if not one of his scumpartners pointed this out to him.

And if we're talking about this. the 'defintion' part of the lylo in his role PM, supposedly. add this rule to your calculation:

6. Endgame: In the event that a Day starts with 1 Town player and 1 Mafia player, the Mafia will immediately win.

so....basically, even if we mislynch a "mylo" according to NS, roles can exist that may prevent a win; or even in a "lylo". who knows.

so I call bullshit.

Hmmm... This is interesting because I was actually already considering this rule but I had remembered the wording of it wrong.

I thought it said that if a day starts with an equal number of town and scum the mafia would immediately win. Worded this way my thinking was this rule wouldn't make sense with scum who was hated but not in lylo because only scum who was always hated would mean a gamestate with an equal number of town and scum wouldn't technically be over. So if scum was always hated then the rule would be needed to prevent the crappy gamestate from occurring but also I assumed it was just the generic "endgame" rule whether a hated scum exists or not.

But... it is interesting because the rule specifically says 1 town and 1 mafia. That is not the generic endgame rule. So, the mafia does not automatically win if there is 2 and 2 or 3 and 3? only specifically 1 and 1? I know magua is very intentional with his word choices so it says that for a reason.

So hyothetically if NS is hated scum and there is 3 town and 3 scum alive, normally this would be game over because town could never achieve majority lynch. But scum could also not majority lynch and if NS were in the game the 3 townies could vote NS but the game would go to 2-2 the next day unless the nk was prevented, which I guess could happen maybe. But why does the "mafia wins a 1v1 endgame always" rule exist then? I guess it could be because without it NS would have a much harder time winning solo if his partners were killed off.

This may be a thing.

But the condition - the above only makes sense if the condition is a lie. NS said his role PM said:

It says that while there are more than twice the scum+1 players alive I am hated.

If it were 3v3 or 2v2 with NS alive by NS's definition he would not be hated because 6 <= 2*3 + 1.

So if the condition is not a lie then 3v3 or 2v2 is still an endgame loss for town unless there is some other mechanic or some other player is hated scum even in lylo.

I kinda wanna organize running everybody except NS to L-1 now and see who dies, but I don't have faith that someone wouldn't fuck it up.

[Rhinox]

The condition if true also points to being town because there is no reason to give a "except in lylo" condition to a hated scum.

Though I'm townreading ns, you're wrong here because the condition part could be a lie, especially given it was fed to him (someone, I think Cephrir, mentioned that the condition could be that and then ns simply confirmed)

I did say "if true" in my post. But in regards to it being fed to him, scum have daytalk so NS wouldn't need it fed to him in thread to claim it. But it could indicate Ceph and NS are both scum but... that would be a bad scum mistake.

[xRECKONERx]

Here, I quoted the development of your read on ceph.

WOuld also probably vote TierShift. Would vote Cephrir as well

Would consider Cabd, Cephrir, Katsu, Rhinox, Tiershift.

Up to here he's null-scum-ish

This is an obvious misrep, he didn't say that at all.

mmmm yessss

feeeed the ceph/cabd dream dunk scumteam fantasies in my mind

oh god i am cumming

And from here on he's a full-on scumread.
So yes, they are dependent, stop bullshitting me.

I see.

I was not saying they were a team and therefore connected. I do feel like I said more about Ceph/Cabd but it must've just been the circlejerk in my team topic. However, the "dream dunk scumteam fantasy" mentioned was implying that it would be a beautiful thing if my two scumreads were scum together, not that I thought they were scum together. "dunk" usually refers to thinks being easy; it would be easy if they were scum together because it would mean my two main reads were correct.

Furthermore, your quote wall forgot a few things.

I really hope Cephrir is scum so I can kynch him

I just got home, was out all day with family. I was mobile posting all day.

Cabd is actually scum, though, because of that policy lynch + HEY YALL LETS TALK ABOUT PRIOR ROLES BECAUSE UHHH MOD META ANYTHING TO STOP ME FROM HAVING TO TALK ABOUT REAL THINGS

And Cephrir's insistence that I'm scum based on (???) and then refusal to explain/elaborate when I pressed him further is bad, too.

Like, you specifically left out these two quotes? These two quotes ALONE show that I had the reads develop independent of one another, so did you just forget? Or are you selectively quoting to fuel your little scumboner for me?

And then we have TierShift claiming I'm doing nothing but appeal to emotion, which makes actually no sense to me whatsoever, because I feel I've remained fairly calm and shit this game and haven't done any AtE.

That's only part of what I said, but yeah, it is true, basically. Maybe you should read your own ISO for all

the reads you fabricated

the things you forgot?

Funny enough, I *did* ISO myself, and I see nothing remotely close to AtE! Unless you consider me saying "Sorry, was away with family" or whatever AtE, in which case, no, that's not at all what that is.

[Cephrir]

Reck denying he was linking them shows he just doesn't remember doing it and points to town

I was with you until the last word of this post!

[Wisdom]

so you're saying scum forget more than town?

[xRECKONERx]

Or... we can look at my 51 and 71 and see that my reads on Ceph/Cabd actually

did develop independently

and that TierShift's selective quoting is bullshit!

[Wisdom]

reck, would you lynch tbone?

[xRECKONERx]

Meh. Probably not. I don't really see why, especially when I have actual scum reads.

[Wisdom]

k. Remind me why you see Ceph as scum.

[Cephrir]

so you're saying scum forget more than town?

That would be my suspicion, though it could certainly also just vary by person and not actually matter. I forget things I've said pretty routinely.

[Wisdom]

anyhow, Reck feels more town to me now

[xRECKONERx]

His response to me saying I hope he's scum so I can lynch him is to immediately start discrediting me and calling me scum.

His "reasons" for targeting me http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 30523(121) were really shallow [see response in (146)]... after this takedown of his post, he says all he really wanted was for me to admit it was early D1.

Supposedly, that was the thrust of his push against me. And then... outta nowhere... later... shitty reasonless vote!

Since then, nothing. He has reiterated a desire to lynch me, but has yet to actually put a solid reason behind his vote (not that I've seen). Now, his voice is just one of many, joining a choir of reasonless parrots.

I'm town, and I'm pretty goddamn confident the swell of people shouting that I'm scum without actually moving on it means 1) it's an easy, agreeable wagon to hide behind because I'm lurking, and 2) scum are just setting their sights on juicier targets first before rolling me up as the free mislynch later.

[xRECKONERx]

i suck @ tags

[Cephrir]

I would really like to hear from grey before we go lynching someone else. I can probably case tbone with relative ease but I don't know how much I'd believe on it at this point.

[TierShift]

so youre telling me im the only one who will go and check whether I was linking two players or not before replying "i never linked those two players" when I'm scum?

I don't go check as either alignment. You're probably not the only one, though?

Here, I quoted the development of your read on ceph.

WOuld also probably vote TierShift. Would vote Cephrir as well

Would consider Cabd, Cephrir, Katsu, Rhinox, Tiershift.

Up to here he's null-scum-ish

This is an obvious misrep, he didn't say that at all.

mmmm yessss

feeeed the ceph/cabd dream dunk scumteam fantasies in my mind

oh god i am cumming

And from here on he's a full-on scumread.
So yes, they are dependent, stop bullshitting me.

I see.

I was not saying they were a team and therefore connected. I do feel like I said more about Ceph/Cabd but it must've just been the circlejerk in my team topic. However, the "dream dunk scumteam fantasy" mentioned was implying that it would be a beautiful thing if my two scumreads were scum together, not that I thought they were scum together. "dunk" usually refers to thinks being easy; it would be easy if they were scum together because it would mean my two main reads were correct.

right, but you did connect them by that quote. Don't deny it.

Furthermore, your quote wall forgot a few things.

I really hope Cephrir is scum so I can kynch him

I just got home, was out all day with family. I was mobile posting all day.

Cabd is actually scum, though, because of that policy lynch + HEY YALL LETS TALK ABOUT PRIOR ROLES BECAUSE UHHH MOD META ANYTHING TO STOP ME FROM HAVING TO TALK ABOUT REAL THINGS

And Cephrir's insistence that I'm scum based on (???) and then refusal to explain/elaborate when I pressed him further is bad, too.

Like, you specifically left out these two quotes? These two quotes ALONE show that I had the reads develop independent of one another, so did you just forget? Or are you selectively quoting to fuel your little scumboner for me?

the first one was joking, you even admitted that. The second one is really early and is not a full-on scumread. The actual scumread came only after you started connecting him to cabd,I don't know what you're on.

so you're saying scum forget more than town?

I do forget more often as scum than as town, I think. As scum you're pushing bullshit. Bullshit is easier forgotten than real feelings.

[Cephrir]

I clearly stopped wanting to actively lynch you earlier today reck

I'm ambivalent now

[TierShift]

anyhow, Reck feels more town to me now

why though

[xRECKONERx]

right, but you did connect them by that quote. Don't deny it.

I never denied that? I said that my scumreads developed independently and were independent.

If that's the case, and I "connected them by that quote", then here: TierShift & Wisdom are players in this game that I have a null-town read on right now! Now you two are connected by a quote, does that mean my read of each of you is dependent on the other as well?

No, of course not.

[Wisdom]

Because he does. I cant help you if youre not seeing it

[Wisdom]

I think its tbone/ceph and probably cabd for third right now

though you guys have managed to make me paranoid on ns

[xRECKONERx]

What's the case re: NS?

I remember reading him as town earlier, I think because of :effort: + genuine sounding posts, but it wasn't anything that stuck with me.

(TBH I'm having a hard time getting a town read on anyone this game, though the Katsuki lynch did piss me off a bit)