White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 3.04

Aneninen (2) - Ankamius, Antihero
Ankamius (2) - Zachrulez, Aneninen
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting (3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Regfan, theelkspeaks

With 9 alive, it will take 5 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 11, 2015, at 12:00 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-05-11 12:00:00).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES, why doesn't my sustained suspicion on ika reflect well on me? Are you saying I should not lynch/push/vote someone I think is scum just because nobody agrees with me? Or is it because he is your buddy and you don't want me pushing that line of thought?

Mostly because I think he's town and your unwavering suspicion in the face of everything.

Also, can you state the difference in my pursuit of ika as opposed to say, your pursuit of CD? I mean, you thought he was scum throughout D1 and D2 yet he flipped town, this doesn't reflect badly on you though, right?

I think it does reflect badly on me but obviously to what degree it does is fairly subjective. Although you also agreed that Cheery Dog didn't look town.

Also, I disagree that a lot has happened. What has happened that should effect my reads on you and ika? Tell me.

What about Ank unvoting me with the deadline nearing or elk and Anen's deadline no-show? I think plenty of things have happened that look more suspicious than me having an explanation that you don't fully buy.

I don't see anything to change my mind, only further reasons for why you're scum.

What are those further reasons?

Is this shit actually serious? Do you know how frustrating it is to truly believe you have found scum and have nobody fucking listen? Like, my biggest town reads are generally not on the same wave length as me and I'm just getting pissed off with it.

Yeah, I'm becoming demotivated to play this fucking game. So what?

I looked like a plausible lynch for most of that time; you could've tried convincing theelkspeaks and Aneninen (they both even ended up on ika come deadline).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also, I keep forgetting: Ankamius, can you give me an overview of your current reads?

[Zachrulez]

I'm not even saying that I think either is scum. Just that if there is scum in CES/Reg, it's one scum and no more.

If I was to bank on one being scum, I'm actually more uneasy about Reg at this point to be honest.

you had your shot. twice.

you blew it.

sheep me.

I'll think about it. I don't think it's a terrible vote.

[Aneninen]

Because of the length of my post.

That is the obvious surface level explanation, yes. But if you think Ank is scum, then you must also think that what you spoilered was *important*. I'm not really feeling a desire to push scum and get them lynched (either in this or in your comments about Yesterday's deadline situation).

How does that make sense at all? I don't want to lynch Ankamius because ...I put my case into a Spoiler? As if I had never used spoilers for long posts in any other games.
I don't get the next part as well.

Spoiler: Just to annoy you and no, it's not a pigeon

I posted a request for the summaries of the major wagons and waited a bit, although I was dead tired. I knew that I had to work on the next day morning and I was unsure about the rest of the Day. (Eg. whether I would have time to check the forum from mobile or not.) Also, after I'd replaced in I hoped that I would be faster with my catch-up. Had I been, this whole situation wouldn't exist at all.

So. Do you think Tammy got killed because the scums want you to get mislynched?

Ika already asked me why I thought Tammy got nightkilled. It depends somewhat on Ank's alignment but certainly the option to paint Regfan as my buddy seems like a pretty solid reason to kill Tammy over Regfan (both in diminishing the impact of Regfan and being able to smear me).[/quote]
Walk me through your thought process how you get to 1405 from 1138.

1440 - I would guess Tammy was killed to make me look bad. I mean, outside of someone being widely town-read, the next best reason for scum to kill someone is to try and set someone else up. That fits me perfectly right? Scum!BBT would kill Tammy for sure.

Another player who says that the Tammy Nightkill happened so as to frame him.

>well, it's not like i was scumreading your slot before or anything. nope.
>"interaction" is the latest meaningless buzzword on MS that i hope dies a fiery death really soon.
>look. look at all the "easy" lynches i got my way on so far, anen.

vote: aneninen

lynch it.

That was not even pigeon poop.
That was...

CROW POOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

(1) "Interaction" as a buzzword? La wow, you're right! Who the f-ck needs interactions at all? Let's post scumreads without talking to the player we have a scumread on!
(2) Especially when we don't even post a case at all. What was your case again? I'm scum because my reads were "shyt soup" while I was in the middle of my catch-up. (By the way, have you even checked any of the games I replaced in?) Oh yeah, and you repeated it a couple of times. Gross.
(3) I thing you must have heard it before that Buzzword is a Buzzword too. (And frankly, I've never ever heard that pointing out that scumreading someone without talking to them is a Buzzword.)
(4) Anti, I bet you remember Muskoka Mystery. You started scumreading me because of my read list. But, even doing so, you were talking to me, even before your scumread.
(5) Frankly, need I point out why I am an easy lynch in this game?
(6) Also, as for building a "case" against me, Ankamius is hard-working as all the robots from Asimov's universe compared to you. You're so lazy that you even left out something that could have strengthened your read without reading my posts at all. (And no, I'm not helping you by telling the answer for this.)

I don't know whether you're playing bad in this game for some reason or you're scum.
Why everyone has a hard townread on him at all?

Where's Elk, by the way?

[Zachrulez]

Ank, what's your read on me now?

Also want to know if Wisdom's had more to say on me.

[theelkspeaks]

VOTE: Ankamius

Look at the mod iso if you don't see why, just glanced through it and holy jeez.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I haven't liked Ank's votes for most of the game but you're going to have to explain what you're seeing, elk.

How does that make sense at all? I don't want to lynch Ankamius because ...I put my case into a Spoiler? As if I had never used spoilers for long posts in any other games.

If you spoiler it, people might not read it (or fail to read it again when looking back). So yes, if you want to get Ankamius lynched, I don't get why you'd hide your case behind a spoiler.

Walk me through your thought process how you get to 1405 from 1138.

I already point out what's changed in 1405.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mostly because I think he's town and your unwavering suspicion in the face of everything.

I see. So you're suspicious of me because I'm scum reading someone you're town reading. That seems kind of dumb.

I think it does reflect badly on me but obviously to what degree it does is fairly subjective. Although you also agreed that Cheery Dog didn't look town.

Correct, but I didn't push him as he was nowhere near the scummiest person in the game. I mean, I'm not even saying you're scum because CD flipped town, I'm saying if you're town you should be able to see how what your saying makes no sense with relation to my reads on ika/you because of your own reads.

What about Ank unvoting me with the deadline nearing or elk and Anen's deadline no-show? I think plenty of things have happened that look more suspicious than me having an explanation that you don't fully buy.

How is a deadline no show alignment indicative? Sometimes, life gets in the way of a game of mafia. Is Ank's unvote supposed to somehow be alignment indicative? If so, how?

What are those further reasons?

CD being a counter-wagon to you. Clearly scum driven. Ika's play hasn't improved one iota and he continues to ask empty questions without any follow up. His subtle attempt at fingering me for the NK was scummy as fuck as well.

I looked like a plausible lynch for most of that time; you could've tried convincing theelkspeaks and Aneninen (they both even ended up on ika come deadline).

I did say I wanted to wait for Anen to catch up before ending the day. Also, I keep forgetting elk is in this game, so yeah, I guess I could have done that. I still think I tried pushing you pretty hard.

VOTE: Ankamius
Look at the mod iso if you don't see why, just glanced through it and holy jeez.

Elk, can you explain this vote further?

[theelkspeaks]

basically that Anka's vote is super-duper static, parking it a large chunk of D1 on the widely townread llama, and most of the rest of Day 1 and Day 2 on CES. It feels like a planned scum strategy, though I'm not sure whether he's parking on CES for towncred once CES flips scum or whether he's parking on CES to give CES towncred when Anka flips scum. (Or just to create WIFOM, idk). Anka's votes make me feel really bad about both him and CES, and looking through the mod ISO as I just did before that vote made it much worse (i.e. more blatant) than reading through the game naturally.

[ika]

elk what are your reads in a nutshell?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I see. So you're suspicious of me because I'm scum reading someone you're town reading. That seems kind of dumb.

I think the way you've been scum reading who I think is a town is a point against you.

How is a deadline no show alignment indicative? Sometimes, life gets in the way of a game of mafia. Is Ank's unvote supposed to somehow be alignment indicative? If so, how?

Townies generally want to influence the game and lynch scum; elk and Aneninen both knew when deadline would be and what their choices were; I can't imagine just letting deadline pass by and let the rest of the game make that decision for me. Ank's unvote is a more extreme example of that since he was actually here but actively chose to limit his own influence.

CD being a counter-wagon to you. Clearly scum driven.

What about it makes it "clearly scum driven"?

[Regfan]

Home, had a long few days, will do some serious analysis tomorrow likely.

I really don't like Ank entering the day with jut a vote on Anen in Post 1373 rather than answering the massive amount of questions / issues that I (And others) had with his end of day reads and mentions of Mollie (I still want her reads and explanations in this thread asap especially the "ika is confscum due to meta tell" v "ika might be town!" change since that's the one I struggle to buyt he most), that said I do like his point on Anen re; the CES reads request in Post 1376. I'm not even sure I follow his thought process about the CES unvote at all, I'll likely reread it later when my brains working because literally none of it makes sense to me right now, best I'm gathering is that he didn't really scum-read CES/Me at day end but actually town-read us both but didn't want to admit it due to stubbornness but that doesn't really fit his interaction with us nor his read or stance on Cheery.

Zach, I don't actually think Ank stating that Tammy would be the nightkill and then Tammy being the nightkill points heavily towards him being mafia, he doesn't gain anything from doing that intentionally as scum (It's not something he claim town-cred from), I think she likely died because she was ObvTown and probably more right about things than I and others probably are (I'm taking a serious re-look at BBT today and hope others do as well, feels weird to be agreeing with ika though). I mean I'm still leaning towards him being scum - much less than the end of yesterday since I thought he was attempting to save CD!Scum and I actually do like his push and reasoning against Anen here but yeah I'm not reading the Tammy nightkill mentions as a scum-tell at all.

Initial read on BBTS Post 1416 was the "I'm calling the scum-team to gloat postgame" as a town-tell but I actually really don't like that his scum-reads haven't really changed whatsoever, the p much entirel lack of reconsideration and statitc reads don't read genuine, I really like that Zach also noticed this in Post 1422. The fact that in some posts he shows willingness to admit that his scum-read on me is purely interaction based with CES and dependent on CES being scum and thus not a reason to lynch me and in others huge confidence of being scum doesn't add up.

I don't like Elks vote on Ank in Post 1456 at all, his reasoning in Post 1459 can be used for a large chunk of the playerlist (Including me, I think I've only voted Elk-Aero-CD) and the timing of it when it's Anen v Ank essentially while not commenting on Anen at all looks awful especially if Anen is scum.

However, I must point out these:
(1) He started calling me scum without interacting me at all!

I really really really really don't like this point and struggle to see it coming from town ever, how is Ank calling you mafia without him interacting with you first a scum-tell? I generally interact with my town-reads more than my scum-reads especially when it's in regards to y'know my scum-read on them; you don't need to convince scum they're scum and while conversing with them can sometimes help strengthen or break a read it's not something Ank would have been able to do much given that you were claiming to be 'catching up still'. Put it this way, you called CES scum when reading through, you hadn't interacted with him whatsoever at that point how does that differ from Ank calling you scum? I see no difference there so you pushing this as a scum-tell against him looks like pigeon poop.

[Regfan]

GAH

My big post of reads got deleted due to shitty internet, fuck this shit.

[Regfan]

So yeah, I'm pretty much banking on town reads on Zach/Ika being 100% spot on (Would eat a hat if either are scum here), and still think Anti/CES are town too though if I'm wrong on CES I'll know Zar will give me shit for having symped scum here, still think his comments and response to Tammy was town too. I'm growing less and less sure of my Elk town-read, p much the skype convo post of him is the the only thing of his that makes me think he's town, him fading into the background whenever not mentioned is something I really don't like at all, might do a meta check up on him again because outside of that one post I can very much see him as scum and I'm going to hate myself if I second-guessed over something like that.

I have a slight crack pot theory of an Anen/Ank scum-team coming into today hard-pushing on each other to attempt to clear the other upon ones scum flip given they both would have known that's probably where we'd be looking at today, that said don't see that making sense since the third partner wouldn't know who to back and picking the wrong person would make them look dreadful (which scum would want to avoid in WF) so unless one of my strong town reads is scum and they're banking on just using prior town cred which I don't think is the case then they're probably not scum together. And yeah, that was super rambly but I'm just getting my thoughts down here now. Between them think I'm more confident Anens scum, still think his mention v Psyches mention of the team mates comment re; the wagon don't add up and I don't like a lot of what he's pushing on Ank for.

BBTs probably the read where I'm most conflicted/unsure at the moment, Singer still thinks his play here doesn't match his scum play in the game with her and I still find his early play and interactions with Llama as town when skimming over it but his latter play here reads as him coasting on his 'stubborn' meta rather than actually explaining reads in depth and detail which I know he can do. I'll likely carve out a few hours tomorrow to do a huge ISO on him because this is a read I need to sort; would love others reads/thoughts on him in the meantime too.

So yeah, likely voting Anen here after I get some answers from Ank/Mollie and a read through of BBT and Elk.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I did take a look at his meta yesterday and my main impression was that this game didn't really match anything I saw. It's hard to judge him on the singer game anyway because he posted in the mafia PT that he was doing a "too scummy to be scum" thing on Day 1.

My main problems with BBT are 1) that he seems to have outright stopped looking for scum - if he thinks I'm scum, how does he see Ank's D2 unvote as so insignificant; when asked to give further reasons for his scum read on me, all he could give was that the Cheery was "clearly" a scum-driven counterwagon; and just a generic lack of probing in particular with regards to his most likely scum partners elk, Anen and Ankamius - and 2) his push on me lacks the strength of conviction - see the interaction here (1053-1057) when there were 4 votes on me 4 days to deadline and he already seems to give up on getting me lynched in his second post of Day 3.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It would be informative to see how he'd play Tomorrow though if we lynch Aneninen and he flips scum.

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Ankamius
Look at the mod iso if you don't see why, just glanced through it and holy jeez.

This, and his explanation in 1459 is just as vague as Anti's case against me.

By the way, where were you at the end of Day2?

How does that make sense at all? I don't want to lynch Ankamius because ...I put my case into a Spoiler? As if I had never used spoilers for long posts in any other games.

If you spoiler it, people might not read it (or fail to read it again when looking back). So yes, if you want to get Ankamius lynched, I don't get why you'd hide your case behind a spoiler.

I don't think "people might not read it", especially since I wrote in the same post that details were to be found in the spoiler.

Walk me through your thought process how you get to 1405 from 1138.

I already point out what's changed in 1405.

Yeah, because CD flipped town.
Why do you think BBT is saying the same? (Tammy was Killed so as to frame him)

I think it does reflect badly on me but obviously to what degree it does is fairly subjective. Although you also agreed that Cheery Dog didn't look town.

Correct, but I didn't push him as he was nowhere near the scummiest person in the game. I mean,

I'm not even saying you're scum because CD flipped town

, I'm saying if you're town you should be able to see how what your saying makes no sense with relation to my reads on ika/you because of your own reads.

What are those further reasons?

CD being a counter-wagon to you. Clearly scum driven

. Ika's play hasn't improved one iota and he continues to ask empty questions without any follow up. His subtle attempt at fingering me for the NK was scummy as fuck as well.

Whut?
He's scum but not because of the CD-flip but because of CD being a counter-wagon?! (And these parts in the same post!)

However, I must point out these:
(1) He started calling me scum without interacting me at all!

I really really really really don't like this point and struggle to see it coming from town ever, how is Ank calling you mafia without him interacting with you first a scum-tell? I generally interact with my town-reads more than my scum-reads especially when it's in regards to y'know my scum-read on them; you don't need to convince scum they're scum and while conversing with them can sometimes help strengthen or break a read it's not something Ank would have been able to do much given that you were claiming to be 'catching up still'. Put it this way, you called CES scum when reading through, you hadn't interacted with him whatsoever at that point how does that differ from Ank calling you scum? I see no difference there so you pushing this as a scum-tell against him looks like pigeon poop.

You know, there's a big difference.
CES interacted with me and posted things he doesn't like, eg. the no-show at the end of the Day. (Which I've already explained.)
You posted things like "Aneninen is scummy because of Reason#1, Reason#2..."
Ankamius had posted nothing but "bad catch-up" before I posted my case against him.
Anti hasn't posted anything else besides "my catch-up is bad". (Oh no, there was that "interaction is a buzzword pigeon poop".

And you miss a serious thing. I called players scummy DURING my catchup, and I was pointing out all the time that those were my reads

at that point

– also, I told everyone that I would be able to reflect to the ongoing events (apart from the questions asked from me) as soon as I caught up.
So, there

is

a big difference.
In other words: those who were

reading

me meanwhile, only had to focus on the recent posts, including my catch-up. At the same time, I had to catch up,

and

answer your questions. (Not to mention the Team Topic too.) Which one takes more time?

My main problems with BBT are 1) that he seems to have outright stopped looking for scum -

if he thinks I'm scum, how does he see Ank's D2 unvote as so insignificant

;

[... – edited by me]

THAT!

BBT, what's your read on Elk now?

[Antihero]

(5) Frankly, need I point out why I am an easy lynch in this game?

yes

yes you do

because, you know, remember the time you got lynched in musoka, jk9++, and c9++ even though you were scummy as all fuck in all those?

let's reminisce.

[Antihero]

oh look, it's an ankamius wagon, the latest loser

[Zachrulez]

Oh right it's at 3 now.

UNVOTE:

[Antihero]

(1) "Interaction" as a buzzword? La wow, you're right! Who the f-ck needs interactions at all? Let's post scumreads without talking to the player we have a scumread on!

i get this was supposed to be sarcastic.

but yes.

this.

but here, since we're taking a jog down memory lane, let's revisit everything tth and i said about psyche

gasp

The exchange between you and BBT at the top of page 2 (from about Post 32 to Post 41) was all kinds of awkward on your end. Screaming about being left out and then asking for reasons on ika doesn't quite gel. The comment implying that ika is lynchbait in Post 38 doesn't

quite

fit the context given that nobody is seriously talking about lynching ika. The attack on BBT is subpar even given the relatively low standards of the early game.

in our exchange
you seemed guarded
and not really interested in figuring me out

Funny, that's exactly what I think about you.

I have a light scum read on ika from general game dynamics.
I also have a light scum read on elk, mostly for blanket criticizing the ika wagon but not calling out anyone in particular.

TTH; Can you explain what you're referring to with "general game dynamics" in Post 81 for me please.

I was mostly referring to elk's white knighting of the ika wagon and Psyche's early game questioning of it. Since the set up itself encourages scum to defend each other, I'm treating awkward defense as a bit of a scumtell though I do recognize it could be scum white knighting for town cred thus the "light" read.

ika's empty prod for content in Post 108 doesn't help either.

i mean... if there's a narrative about reads that doesn't make sense here, it's psyche's. and it hasn't since the beginning of this goddamn game. it's not like he's just flat out not here (it looks like his mind is elsewhere day 2) but even on day 1, tth noticed the cracks in the system early on. there aren't any real scumreads really hashed out... anywhere in the iso. there was the whole "group" thing that nacho was townreading for some reason but that ended up being a dead end and it didn't even really make that much sense to begin with and it just kind of spiraled from there into an abyss of lurk.

also, not really buying the team interactions regarding the aero wagon. your "teammates" (notice, we don't hear the name of a specific member) told you to sheep because the wagon was all good in the neighborhood? convenient since it removes every single shred of responsibility for the vote from psyche and puts it on these shadowy mysterious "others" (the teammates who have no name and whoever was already on the aero wagon). where did the townread on all these come from? where did it go? no one knows.

all of this is still valid, bee tee dubbbbbbs

[Antihero]

What about it makes it "clearly scum driven"?

the fact that the SAME FUCKING PEOPLE ARE DRIVING ALL THESE PUSHES THAT KEEP FLIPPING TOWN

[Aneninen]

Anti, I need to go now but I'll answer your posts in the evening. Or at least I hope so.

[Ankamius]

Hi.

I'll be around later today. Mollie posted her thoughts of the game in the PT as well, but it would take a lot more time than I have to post it in here, so give me a little time.