We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[Oranje Crush]

As Chrivi survived the night and nobody died!
Chrivi subtly made it clear she targeted BC and nobody died. This either means they targeted BC, Drixx or Her. Now, if I were to choose between an ascetic, BP and doctor as my kill choice I'd target the doctor. She can't self-protect (or can you?) so it's quiet logical that BC's is reflexive JK.
Or how would you explain the other lack of kill?

[ChriVi]

Uh. I don't believe self-protecting is a thing, OC.

And Boon, it WOULD have proven that he isn't an ascetic if you had investigated him as we all suggested. That way if you had gotten no response or whatever happens when you investigate an ascetic you'd know he was lying about his role and we would've caught scum.

Which is probably the game plan tonight.

[Boonskiies]

I did investigate him a few nights ago...I got a no result. I've said this. I'm saying he is ascetic scum.

[Plotinus]

ok, home from the post office now.

So my mild scumread (boon) has cleared my medium scum read (oranje). My townread (bulba) thinks that one of (oranje) and my other town read (brantz) is scum, but following their lead went badly for me yesterday. I need to figure out some happy medium between doing my own work (the only way to get better at this) and deferring to more experienced people (which is more likely to win the game for town) because I was kind of at the point of feeling like trying to think for myself is playing against the town wincon and that's an unpleasant way to feel. My strongest town read (chrivi) is voting me. Another town read of mine (bbmolla) thought I townslipped a couple real life days ago but I read somewhere that it's bad form to ask for clarification on that.

Titus said in her VCA that it was worrisome that my slot was voting claimed cops a lot and it was mostly boon that I was voting so that makes me hesitant to vote him now because if he is town he'll play an important part in town winning this so the stakes are high if I'm wrong about him. In my completed newbie game I tended to be right about my strong townreads, tended to be very wrong about my strong scumreads, and my null reads and mild reads tended out to be scum. In my completed offsite theme game, my 3 null reads were scum, and all of my scumreads were incorrect. Two games is a horribly small sample size but so far it does seem that late game if I'm unsure about them, they're more likely to be scum, and boon fits that situation.

I know we're not in LYLO because I'm town and people have voted me and nobody has hammered so even if I'm wrong the game doesn't end today, and the people who are voting me are definitely wrong whereas I have some chance of being right. I think if Boon is scum then Oranje is scum too on different teams working together because they have to.

There is scum motivation in faking an innocent, there is no town motivation in faking an innocent. Oranje is more expendable than Boon because if I'm wrong about Oranje and we lynch Oranje then we still have a cop who I think we'll have to trust is town at that point and hopefully Boon will have a guilty by then on someone else. If I'm wrong about Boon and we lynch Boon then we're down a cop and that clears Oranje but we won't know about anyone else and we'll be closer to LYLO.

Therefore:

VOTE: Oranje Crush because I'm scumreading him and because the stakes for being wrong about Oranje are lower than the stakes for being wrong about Boon.

[BBmolla]

The thing with House's advice and its retraction seemed genuine, thats what I meant with the townslip.

I don't think Plot is scum.

[BBmolla]

VOTE: Oranje Crush

[Plotinus]

oh, thanks for explaining. If anyone was curious, the advice was here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6757688 (post 945 was the question and post 947, 948, and 949 were the answer. both the question and the answers are short).

It's different here because I don't think the scum are on the same team, we don't know exactly how many there are (I'm guessing 2, though), and we're not in LYLO, but there is the similarity in scum probably preferring to work together at this stage. I think they can't afford to work together for ever, though. I'm still not 100% sure it doesn't apply after all but enough things are different that it probably doesn't.

[Plotinus]

@Bulba: in the absense of other people commenting, which I agree would be nice, you could try looking at the one I wrote about Brantz, which is similar to yours, which I'm less confident of because there were things I liked and things I didn't like, and his slot had less activity which made it harder to draw associative conclusions, but if it's easier to form an opinion when the slot I'm trying to read isn't yours then you coud look at those.

Yours is the best example of me changing my mind as a result of doing it; I think I was null on Brantz when I went in but it might have been a townlean based on his ability and the timing of the new kill flavours appearing and I came out with a strong townread based on his behaviour. For Boon I think I went in null and came out mild scumlean but I can at least put into words what's bothering me about him now.

[Plotinus]

@Bulba: in the absense of other people commenting, which I agree would be nice, you could try looking at the one I wrote about Brantz, which is similar to yours,

or at Boon's

which I'm less confident of because there were things I liked and things I didn't like, and his slot had less activity which made it harder to draw associative conclusions, but if it's easier to form an opinion when the slot I'm trying to read isn't yours then you could look at those.

Yours is the best example of me changing my mind as a result of doing it; I think I was null on Brantz when I went in but it might have been a townlean based on his ability and the timing of the new kill flavours appearing and I came out with a strong townread based on his behaviour. For Boon I think I went in null and came out mild scumlean but I can at least put into words what's bothering me about him now.

ebwop, left out some important words.

[Cuttlefish]

Vote Count 8.01

Plotinus (2)

- ChriVi, Oranje Crush

Oranje Crush (2)

- Plotinus, BBmolla

Bulbasaur Commonwealth (1)

Boonskiies

Not Voting (3)

: Bulbasaur Commonwealth, Drixx, BRantz

With 8 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-05-14 23:05:07).

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

This is the thing that I was thinking of when I asked that question: Natural_Action_Resolution

As a slight correction, the JK only works if only one person targets me. Something else happens if more than one person targets me. I don't fault you for thinking otherwise because the two primary heads at the time (Bulb and myself) did not want to out all parts of our role, just what we believed would be a damning contradiction on death that turned out to be not so damning. I feel uneasy revealing all of it without at least some conversing with my hydra partners (*sigh* forever behind, they are), but this part is why I was positive that ChriVi protecting us would allow for both of us to live sans a strongman kill(under the assumption that only one other person targeted us).

BC, I've never seen a "first come first serve" way of resolving night actions.

To be honest, I don't know how a one-time-a-night reflexive JK would work without the modifiers we have. I'm just assuming it's First Come, although basing it off of NAR may work better.

VOTE: Plotinus
That's clever Chrivi, I'm assuming the mafia targeted you and failed due to the reflexive JK. This proves BC's not an as ascetic.

This is the most likely outcome, yes.

I like how BC ignored my post. Nice. Scum is scum. I guess oc could still be werewolf.

I ignored it because it's moronic and lacks knowledge of how things really are.

And Boon, it WOULD have proven that he isn't an ascetic if you had investigated him as we all suggested. That way if you had gotten no response or whatever happens when you investigate an ascetic you'd know he was lying about his role and we would've caught scum.

Eeyup.

I did investigate him a few nights ago...I got a no result. I've said this. I'm saying he is ascetic scum.

Okay...? And I've stated already that being the sole person targeting me will cause you to be JK'd. If more than one person targets me, the JK won't happen. Therefore, if you got no result, then only one person targeted me.

The thing with House's advice and its retraction seemed genuine, thats what I meant with the townslip.

I don't think Plot is scum.

I agree with this.

So...I guess we're lynching OC? Or we can lynch Drixx, I guess.

It's different here because I don't think the scum are on the same team, we don't know exactly how many there are (I'm guessing 2, though), and we're not in LYLO, but there is the similarity in scum probably preferring to work together at this stage. I think they can't afford to work together for ever, though. I'm still not 100% sure it doesn't apply after all but enough things are different that it probably doesn't.

Once both scum know that the town numbers are down to 2-3, that's when they'll need to probably turn on each other if they want to avoid a kingmaker situation. Or a draw, if cuttles does that.

@Bulba: in the absense of other people commenting, which I agree would be nice, you could try looking at the one I wrote about Brantz, which is similar to yours, which I'm less confident of because there were things I liked and things I didn't like, and his slot had less activity which made it harder to draw associative conclusions, but if it's easier to form an opinion when the slot I'm trying to read isn't yours then you coud look at those.

I've kinda already figured BRantz was town because of his role (and only scum if OC flips town), so your thoughts just help reinforce my townread. Kinda the same thing with boon, although to a scumread instead. I suppose the main/only reason boon's around is as a scanbot, now.


I feel like Plotinus is more likely to be town now, although if we're wrong on Drixx or OC then he's likely the one to go after BRantz (although BRantz is only if OC flips town). However, his quick hop onto Titus yesterday right after my vote is a point of concern against him.
BRantz is safely town unless OC flips town, in which case he's scum. So there's no need/point in lynching him today.
I'm concerned about how Drixx hasn't shown up yet today. I don't think it's anything indictful, but I would like him to post ASAP.
Molla's still probly town.
CHriVi's conftown.
Boon's probably still scum but can be kept alive for a night or two longer.

My thoughts are starting to lead me toward one of OC/Drixx for today, and then whichever of them we didn't lynch and one of boon/BRantz based on flips. Plotinus would be a far-out lynch if we're somehow still playing and stuff.

-Ivy.

[Plotinus]

I think it's okay to keep some things back about your role if letting scum know about them would make it harder to win the game, so be as vague as you need to be, Bulba, if it will keep you and ChriVi alive.

My voting Titus was a bad move. I'd been sort of teetering on the edge of Oranje-or-Titus and seeing someone else say what I was thinking pushed me over the edge there, but it was my own decision to vote, I can't blame being wrong on the person I was sheeping because I made the decision to follow them. I should have taken longer to think about it, or asked more questions before voting, or done anything but sheeped you right away -- I think it would have been a mistake even if Titus had been guilty or even if I were conftown. I also regret the part where my actions made you look bad.

I worry so much about being mistaken but deciding to sheep someone is also an opportunity for me to be mistaken -- either about their alignment or about whether they're mistaken in this case. I will remember that in the future.

I read elsewhere that town shouldn't have to try to look town, but should instead worry about figuring out everyone else's alignment and the act of doing so sincerely will help town appear to be town, and I understand that argument because part of the detection process is detecting people

trying to appear town

, but I think town does have an obligation to try to think through whether what we're about to do is stupid or antitown before doing it. I'm not yet very good at anticipating whether I'm about to do something stupid, but I'm gathering a collection of things to not do again.

[ChriVi]

I did investigate him a few nights ago...I got a no result. I've said this. I'm saying he is ascetic scum.

Jesus

Boonskiies, you investigated him a few nights ago /when nobody else targeted him/. So he reflexively JAILED you, leaving you with no result.

If you investigate him tonight when I'M targeting, he would jailkeep me and then you'd get a result.

He's not scum ascetic, and if he is then the above suggestion would prove that he is so we can lynch him. Get it?

[ChriVi]

I did investigate him a few nights ago...I got a no result. I've said this. I'm saying he is ascetic scum.

Jesus

Boonskiies, you investigated him a few nights ago /when nobody else targeted him/. So he reflexively JAILED you, leaving you with no result.

If you investigate him tonight when I'M targeting, he would jailkeep me and then you'd get a result.

He's not scum ascetic, and if he is then the above suggestion would prove that he is so we can lynch him. Get it?

Wait, nevermind, just read BC's post.

What do you mean "Something else happens" if more than one person targets you? That kinda fucks up the investigate we were gonna do :l

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

What do you mean "Something else happens" if more than one person targets you? That kinda fucks up the investigate we were gonna do :l

Oh, no, it won't interrupt that. If 2+ people target us, you will be able to investigate us, protect us, or otherwise target us and won't be JK'd. There are other things that will happen once that happens, but I'm not going to fullclaim without some hydra talk, and definitely not while there's 2 scum left.

(However, I will say that if the nuked from orbit scum targeted us last night, and ChriVi did as well, then I will be dead when the lynch arrives. I have a suspicion that kill is either on ChriVi or myself)

[Drixx]

Ivy why are you so dense? You believe Boon's claim and he cleared me, but you put me on the primary lynch choices? You make it really hard to take you seriously sometimes. Here I am the excited n00b to play with people I've heard legends about and then they turn out to be completely stubborn and unwilling to do something so simple as update prior assumptions. Sometimes I want to kiss you and sometimes I want to just and sometimes I want to smack you, and it sort of just seems random what I'm going to feel like when I read your posts.

I've

never

seen the slot as scummy, but at this point I believe every single player in the game except me has, and that seems like either really bad reading on my part or really bad play on the OC group's part. I'm going to assume I just missed the read:

VOTE: Oranje Crush

[ChriVi]

Yeah okay. I'm dead due to nuke today.

VOTE: Oranje Crush

[ChriVi]

Also don't let BBMolla slip under your radar once I'm gone. I've played with him before and he's a sneaky scum.

[Plotinus]

Oranje is at L-1 now.

[wgeurts]

WE'RE TOWN YOU IDIOT.
Why the fudge did you hammer?!
Lynch drixx when I'm gone, he's scum.
Probably SK

[wgeurts]

Oh, we weren't lynched. Still
Rather lynch Plot/Drixx

Plot was the only one that would get lynched though.

[Drixx]

Anyone town who wants to lynch me now in the endgame deserves to be mocked mercilessly when they see my flip. I freely offered myself up in the midgame so that I wouldn't be an avenue for scum to try and win by ... and what do we have in the end game? Exactly the scenario I predicted. Any townie who wants to lynch me now instead of then gets these now:

[wgeurts]

BP has so far shown up as scum role.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

For one thing, you aren't really playing with the "legends" because the legends are either busy or so far behind they may not be caught up before the game's over.

Secondly, think about where things are from my perspective. Obviously chriv's conftown. I've come back to thinking Plot is townier now in part thanks to BB. BB himself is very likely town. I think BRantz is town until proven otherwise by an OC-town flip (and ONLY an OC-town flip; OC-SK is a possibility, just one I'm not really seeing due to how the teams seem to be shaping up). Boon is possible scum but we're leaving him live today, it seems, so he can do investigations, so he's not a lynch for today. So that just leaves you and OC. I do have a decent townread on you, yes, but if I go that route then only OC is left as the lynch, and I feel very strongly that the game is not going to end once OC is dead. Like, do we lynch boon next to prove his investigations were true?

Or maybe at this point it's a matter of figuring out which PRs that are currently alive are more okay to be killed off than others? Or do we just ignore most of the PRs and lynch by play, in which case it'd be OC/boon?

P-EDIT: Can somebody unvote so boon doesn't lolhammer?

PE2: Neither of the known BPs have actually flipped yet, geurts?

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

(really, I only think of myself as a "legend" insofar as I've been here for 4 years, not because I'm any good at this game. That's Bulb's and Venus's claims.)