White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wrong.

My case for you being scum has absolutely nothing to do with your meta. It's funny that both you and CES are now pushing this as a reason for me being scum. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm scum reading you and CES and it makes no sense for me to vote CES? Are you for real right now?

Now my entire read,

my entire read

, on you is based on something that a) I haven't said and b) something that's only just became an issue right now and I've been scum reading you since late D1. Wow. This is beyond ridiculous.

You kill people you're town reading to keep your lynch pool as wide as possible.

Why the fuck would I work with someone I think is scum?

This conversation is just getting stupid now. You're making no sense at all.

[ika]

Wrong.

My case for you being scum has absolutely nothing to do with your meta. It's funny that both you and CES are now pushing this as a reason for me being scum. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm scum reading you and CES and it makes no sense for me to vote CES? Are you for real right now?

Now my entire read,

my entire read

, on you is based on something that a) I haven't said and b) something that's only just became an issue right now and I've been scum reading you since late D1. Wow. This is beyond ridiculous.

You kill people you're town reading to keep your lynch pool as wide as possible.

Why the fuck would I work with someone I think is scum?

This conversation is just getting stupid now. You're making no sense at all.

yet you continue to talk to me? that contradicts

like honeslty the first unspoken rules of mafia is dont talk to scums but here you are going against that all day long talking to me and appealing to me. so tell me how you are not playing suboptimaly right now and in fact beign anti-town?

and seeign how your scum read on me is entirlybased on ego and you have claimed scum already i can take what you say for a grain fo salt. like legit if your town your tunnel is so fucking bad that its hilarious.

even anti reminded you of a game where you were town and singlehandedly lost it for them due to tunnles. like im not even tryign and all your doing is contininug to tunnle me and keep shouting "my meta will be broken" and thats jsut an empty statement what cant be proven and in the end will actuly only show how bad you are and probally only strengthen my meta in the end

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm fucking done with this conversation.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

My scum read of you has been very well explained and in detail. You can keep trying to discredit it by pretending I don't have a case but that doesn't make it true.

Yes, you think my vote for Aeronaut was bad. It's not nothing but doesn't come close to justifying the way you've been tunneling me. Anti's read on me, however frustrating some of his reasons are, has a fullness to it yours doesn't come close to.

Anen was bussing Ika until it looked like Ika would be lynched. Then he jumped off. That was what pointed to Anen being scum for me. It's another reason that Ika is scum.

I literally wrote a post based on the fact the support for the ikawagon clearly wasn't there at the same time Anen voted for you. The ikawagon was dead when he jumped off.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, you think my vote for Aeronaut was bad. It's not nothing but doesn't come close to justifying the way you've been tunneling me.

This most certainly is not my only reason for thinking you're scum.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 4.05

Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
ika (1) - theelkspeaks
theelkspeaks (1) - Regfan

Not Voting (2) - Ankamius, ika

With 7 alive, it will take 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Friday, May 22, 2015, at 2:00 AM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-05-22 02:00:00).

[ika]

i love BBT and how bad hes being right now....

I cant wait for post gaem how it only enforced my meta even further.

anti: where are you i need to talk to someone for sanity and talk about how bad BBT is being

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

This most certainly is not my only reason for thinking you're scum.

Well then maybe this time you can mention some of them, unlike the last time we went down this road.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here you go;

Spoiler: Why CES is scum

CES, can you walk me through your Aero scum read late D1?

I don't see much in your ISO. What I do see is you pushing CD and Ank pretty much exclusively and then jumping on the Aero wagon to 'end the Day.'

Also, I'm pretty happy to lynch Psyche if anyone is interested in that. Done the exact same as ika the whole game so far; nothing.

But I was suspicious of Aero well before I became suspicious of Ank. I wanted to keep Day 1 going, keeping Regfan and' marble alive, until I felt there was a clear path to victory and the Anksuspicion made me feel that there was.

Anti, I'll respond to your post when I get home from the meet on Friday and I'm no longer limited to this ipad.

I don't think you were suspicious of Aero before Ank.

In 145, you mention that you think CD's buddies are in Ank/elk/ika. I don't see any mention of Aero before this post.

Your first mention of Aero is in 217 and that's regarding Regfan's case on Aero in which you reply with "

I don't think it's that convincing at this stage

". I'm not sure that comment is strong enough to state this is where your scum read on Aero began either as you seem to agree with Regfan whilst dismissing it at the same time.

428 seems to be where your scum read on Aero started. After this, you start pushing CD and Ank...and then vote Aero. It doesn't make sense and the vote looks pretty opportunistic.

It justifies your jump onto the Aero wagon if you scum read him for longer than what you actually did.

As I said, you spent the majority of D1 focusing on Ank/CD. Then all of a sudden some Aero suspicion came out and you hopped on the wagon 4 or so pages later with not much more coming from you inbetween that.

I don't need to make up anything to justify my jump onto the Aerowagon because there was a genuinely solid case on him.

A case which you never really engaged with.

Context is key. In Day 1 I spend the majority of my time trying to work together with Regfan and 'marble to find three good suspects. That context alone should make it obvious that I thought Aeronaut was a genuine suspect long before I voted him. It also applies to the silly point Antihero made about me asking Regfan why he had a town read on tth.

No.

Just because you were trying to work with other people that doesn't absolve your responsibility of joining the Aero wagon. It also doesn't mean you can justify it by saying 'Regfan and Llamarble thought Aero was scum and they had a good case so I went along with it'.

I showed you in your ISO that it was not obvious that you suspected Aero.

Ika, state why I'm scum.

Zach, don't be stupid. Once again, I tried my best to lynch who I thought was scum and, once again, nobody listened.

Just so I can gloat post game I'm calling the scum team now.

Ika/CES/Regfan.

CD was clearly a counter-wagon to stop CES from being lynched.

But whatever. I'll sit here while you guys mislynch town again and then maybe, once we're in LyLo, somebody will listen to me.

1440 - I would guess Tammy was killed to make me look bad. I mean, outside of someone being widely town-read, the next best reason for scum to kill someone is to try and set someone else up. That fits me perfectly right? Scum!BBT would kill Tammy for sure.

I don't usually speculate on NK's but your question (to everyone else) was very subtly trying to set me up.

Also, and this one is very easy, Reg is still alive because he's scum. Or his reads are awful; prob scum though.

1441 - CES, why doesn't my sustained suspicion on ika reflect well on me? Are you saying I should not lynch/push/vote someone I think is scum just because nobody agrees with me? Or is it because he is your buddy and you don't want me pushing that line of thought?

Also, can you state the difference in my pursuit of ika as opposed to say, your pursuit of CD? I mean, you thought he was scum throughout D1 and D2 yet he flipped town, this doesn't reflect badly on you though, right?

Also, I disagree that a lot has happened. What has happened that should effect my reads on you and ika? Tell me.

You're explanation for your read progression on Aero was bullshit. I didn't buy it, I still don't buy it. The problem is, everyone else has and that's frustrating. It's also pretty clear now that CD was a counter-wagon to you.

I've had both my scum reads for some time, I have stated reasons why each are scum and there is nothing more I can do. I don't see anything to change my mind, only further reasons for why you're scum.

You have been posting and pushing less since your vote on me (~2 posts per page after vs. ~4 posts per page before). If you think you've caught scum in me, then that's a weird pattern.

Is this shit actually serious? Do you know how frustrating it is to truly believe you have found scum and have nobody fucking listen? Like, my biggest town reads are generally not on the same wave length as me and I'm just getting pissed off with it.

Yeah, I'm becoming demotivated to play this fucking game. So what?

Mostly because I think he's town and your unwavering suspicion in the face of everything.

I see. So you're suspicious of me because I'm scum reading someone you're town reading. That seems kind of dumb.

I think it does reflect badly on me but obviously to what degree it does is fairly subjective. Although you also agreed that Cheery Dog didn't look town.

Correct, but I didn't push him as he was nowhere near the scummiest person in the game. I mean, I'm not even saying you're scum because CD flipped town, I'm saying if you're town you should be able to see how what your saying makes no sense with relation to my reads on ika/you because of your own reads.

What about Ank unvoting me with the deadline nearing or elk and Anen's deadline no-show? I think plenty of things have happened that look more suspicious than me having an explanation that you don't fully buy.

How is a deadline no show alignment indicative? Sometimes, life gets in the way of a game of mafia. Is Ank's unvote supposed to somehow be alignment indicative? If so, how?

What are those further reasons?

CD being a counter-wagon to you. Clearly scum driven. Ika's play hasn't improved one iota and he continues to ask empty questions without any follow up. His subtle attempt at fingering me for the NK was scummy as fuck as well.

I looked like a plausible lynch for most of that time; you could've tried convincing theelkspeaks and Aneninen (they both even ended up on ika come deadline).

I did say I wanted to wait for Anen to catch up before ending the day. Also, I keep forgetting elk is in this game, so yeah, I guess I could have done that. I still think I tried pushing you pretty hard.

VOTE: Ankamius
Look at the mod iso if you don't see why, just glanced through it and holy jeez.

Elk, can you explain this vote further?

Hey CES, let's talk about static reads.

In VC 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.05...all the way through to VC 1.20 your vote sits on Cheery Dog. Doesn't move once.

What happens after that? That's right, your sudden jump onto the Aero wagon with no read progression at all (oh wait, that's right, it happened outside of the thread)

Bullshit.

CES needs lynching. The fact he continued this trend of scum-reading CD for most (all?) of D2 and finally lynched him and then has the cheek to call my reads static is downright ridiculous.

I haven't looked at VCs from D2 yet but there were a few things I noted from D1's VCs that I'll bring up soon.

So your further reason for me being scum is mostly that I'm scum and that Regfan (who is suspicious because he could be my partner) voted CD. And Cheery Dog wasn't a leading wagon at any point except the end Yesterday.

You're acting like I need more reasons to scum read you. I have reasons and I have stated them.

You're right, I thought CD was a leading wagon for a lot longer than what he was.

VC 2.16 is when CD wagon begins to pick up. And he did stay as a leading wagon for the next 12 pages (300 or so posts), so yeah, I would still argue that I doubt both leading wagons over a 12 page period and eventual lynch were on town.

After looking over the VCs I'm going to take back my bolded scum team to avoid looking silly. All of Reg/ika/CES were on both lynches and that feels too aggressive for scum. With how late D2 played out, I would imagine they were more spread out. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong on Reg because that is based on associations which was stupid of me to do in the first place.

I need to sort out elk/Ank/Anen. Ank seems town to me and elk looks the scummiest. I need to interact with Anen to get a feel for him, I can usually sniff him out pretty well if he's scum. It's a little difficult though with this wall off going on.

Anen & Elk - Can you both state your reads please?

VC 2.15;

Vote Count 2.15
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

Aneninen (2) - Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika

Cheery Dog

(1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
ika (1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - Aneninen,

Tammy

If I'm right on Ank being town, this is a pretty townie wagon on CES. It also explains why the votes/wagons were dragging, scum are spread out among the other wagons trying to decide what to do.

It's also important to note that ika votes for CES in 2.05 and stays on him until 2.11. When CES' wagon becomes a four person wagon and he looks in real danger of being lynched, ika jumps off and goes back to sitting on me for the majority of the Day.

VC 2.24 was an interesting one;

Vote Count 2.24
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

Cheery Dog

(3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
ika (2) - theelkspeaks, Aneninen

Not Voting (1) -

Tammy

These two wagons look pretty town, right? Maybe Ank is scum on CES (I doubt it) and CES if for sure scum on CD, but the rest are town. And this is where the CD wagon really picks up.

VC 2.25 and CD is the leading wagon;

Vote Count 2.25

Cheery Dog

(5) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan,

Tammy

, ika
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

ika (2) - theelkspeaks, Aneninen

Not Voting (0)

Tammy jumps on and then ika (ika's voting this game has been atrocious. It's so opportunistic). Now, the CD wagon doesn't look so town anymore. The wagons ends with Anti hammering;

Vote Count 2.29

Cheery Dog

(6) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan,

Tammy

, ika, Antihero
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

ika (2) - theelkspeaks, Aneninen

Not Voting (1) - Ankamius

Look at that CD wagon. Think; where are the scum? Zach is town, Anti is town, Tammy has flipped, Reg is most likely town; that leaves ika/CES (Hint; they're both scum.)

CES, I don't need to convince you that you're scum. I need everyone else to see it, I feel like at this point it should be pretty fucking obvious, but whatever, I'll wait.

You didn't claim it was 'definitely' scummy, haha. Now starts the backtracking.

Can we lynch this please?

What do you think this conversation was about? Me convincing you Ank is scum? I'm trying to sort out your alignment.

Ank, I still want your reads specifically.

You very clearly assigned scum points to Ank for the unvote and I don't see how that works; so yeah, that's what I assumed the conversation was about.

Have at it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

835-931 is just Aerostuff.

1416, 1447, 1451 is the claim that CD was a counterwagon, which when pressed you justified by the fact that you thought I was scum.

1479 is you falsely claiming I called your reads static.

1483 just doesn't have any reasons.

1486 is VCA so inherently void of any content.

1502-1505 is you reading some weird meaning into me asking you about Ank's unvote. I asked you about Ank's unvote because Ank's unvote was inherently interesting and it should've interested you if you were town.

You can't hide behind a wall of quotes. There's no substance behind your tunnel.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

lol

[theelkspeaks]

CES - VCA void of content? ?!?!?!? !?!?!?

VCA is one of the best scumhunting tools there is.

I mean you can disagree with the conclusions drawn from VCA, but. It exists and is useful!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It's the Day before LyLo, Regfan strongly thinks you're scum, BBT has unvoted ika and that's the only thing you're drawn to comment on?

VCA is nonsense.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

BBT, give me one reason that's not Aero for why ika-me makes more sense than ika-elk.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just gave you a tonne of reasons for why I think you're scum and instead of responding you chose to try and discredit everything I said instead.

Are you saying ika/elk makes sense as a team?

[theelkspeaks]

It's the Day before LyLo, Regfan strongly thinks you're scum, BBT has unvoted ika and that's the only thing you're drawn to comment on?

VCA is nonsense.

Well it was complete bullshit. I'm trying to decide whether to switch to you or stay on ika, because I think it's you two right now.

But I was mostly hoping to make you actually respond to the VCA instead of just dismissing it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Elk, you should absolutely, 100% vote CES.

I'll give you a cookie.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Then we can watch ika refrain from hammering and we win the game.

Easy.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I just gave you a tonne of reasons for why I think you're scum and instead of responding you chose to try and discredit everything I said instead.

Most of what you quoted was directed, so I had already engaged with it. It also includes the stuff about "static reads" when I just literally hadn't said that (it was Zach who said it).

What point in there do you actually want me to respond to?

Are you saying ika/elk makes sense as a team?

I kind of forgot that elk was pushing ika. It makes sense apart from that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well it was complete bullshit. I'm trying to decide whether to switch to you or stay on ika, because I think it's you two right now.

But I was mostly hoping to make you actually respond to the VCA instead of just dismissing it.

You had Ank as #2 two days ago? You're not bothered by his absence?

I will quote for you my stance on VCA:

VCA has always just been the fallacious reasoning of taking a reasonable position such as "there is an average amount of scum on this wagon", combining that with information from the flips, then resolutely ignore the fact that this new information changes how reasonable your original position and pretend it's still likely to be true. E.g. if you're playing a newbie and everybody on a certain wagon but player A flipped town, then player A isn't 69% likely to be scum; the fact that everybody else flipped town is very strong evidence in favour of the fact that that wagon might've actually been all town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I mean, the argument is essentially that I saw the same things as Zach, Regfan and Tammy and since they're town, I must be scum. Because scum definitely couldn't be lurking (you/Anen) or pushing a different townie (BBT).

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ank's absence at a pretty vital point of the game is somewhat concerning.

CES, can you elaborate on your Ika scum read?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

?

If you mean my comment on ika-elk, I meant that more in terms of their interactions (obviously, I didn't think this part through very carefully) and how the game has progressed. Town pushing town D1 and D2 makes much more sense if one scumbag was being generally read as town (which I think is you, but you could think is ika) and 2 scum were lurking in the background (elk/Psyche).

I also didn't mind the possibility that if you were somehow town, I could've swayed you to voting elk.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you explain your scum read on me?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The way you've been tunneling me based on the Aeronaut stuff; your continued insistence that you do have more reasons; starting this Day pushing ika; your interactions with Aneninen Yesterday; you claiming credit for the Aneninenlynch; your interactions with elk; the lack of conviction at the end of D2.

2 of those do rely on elkscum but if elk is town, then that would narrow down my suspect pool so much that you'd be even more likely to be scum. I've probably also forgotten at least one reason.