Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[ActionDan]

UT, for clarification, your main scumreads atm are oversoul and gamma?

I still think it's bullshit singer's team token distribution was 0/2/0/3 but it doesn't really matter to me much. My prediction is actually 2 on game choices plus 0/1/1/1, for posterity. Vezoks point would be fine if it weren't for the early dialogue being between tammy and empire's via proxy

[ActionDan]

For me lynching UT is still up in the air.

[ActionDan]

Please assume I have a comprehensive idea of all arguments for and against

[vezokpiraka]

@UT, The last post was to Singer.

I got no problem eating crow if I am wrong. Given I am townreading everyone on this wagon independant of theory (which says they are town), I doubt I will be. Little risk. High reward.

Well I have a problem with lynching important town roles. If you don't, maybe you're scum.

Seriously. Is it new meta to lynch townies and hope for the best? Do you think scum are going to kill themselves?

I really can't decide if you are town or scum and the things you say only sound dumb.

[Titus]

So do I. If I thought UT was Alquin, I wouldn't be in favor of lynching him. We lynch scum suspects and hope for the best. No I don't think scum are going to kill themselves. Hence why the claim Alquin gambit.

[Titus]

Now I am unplugging from this before I call you all stupid assholes.

[Untrod Tripod]

@UT, The last post was to Singer.

I got no problem eating crow if I am wrong. Given I am townreading everyone on this wagon independant of theory (which says they are town), I doubt I will be. Little risk. High reward.

okay, well you're going to. I'm not going to hold that against you after the game, though. I don't do grudges.

also some of your townreads are almost definitely wrong but if you're town I'm confident you'll figure out which ones.

[Titus]

Which ones and FUCKING WHY? Type that up while I am not here. No pressure. Leave me fucking something.

[Cheetory6]

My condolences Titus.
Sorry to hear. Hope you're doing okay.

[singersigner]

You've been posturing as if you've been tracing me (which would explain why my trace failed on you) but yet somehow you know UT's sign. That IS cause for concern from me.

What the fuck have I said that would imply I've targeted you? Or even got a result one way or another for that matter? If I thought I could get you lynched (hint: a wagon with 6 people heavily implies I can), I wouldn't waste anything on you.

And this was 100% Empire's decision anyway, not mine. Stop doubt casting things that inconvenience you and your tiny bubble of wtf.

@AD...in what world would it make sense to keep lying about token distribution after Empire/Zar's scum flip in the nightless? Two people that apparently have as much distain for being scum as I do make a

thousand

percent sense to want to place tokens in the town pile. Especially when, as you can see, it's hard as fuck to be scum in a nightless setup. What game do you think we would've wanted so much that we would put a preference of tokens on it? Seriously. And what's the point in doubt casting the token distribution of it doesn't matter to you?

[vezokpiraka]

You've been posturing as if you've been tracing me (which would explain why my trace failed on you) but yet somehow you know UT's sign. That IS cause for concern from me.

What the fuck have I said that would imply I've targeted you? Or even got a result one way or another for that matter? If I thought I could get you lynched (hint: a wagon with 6 people heavily implies I can), I wouldn't waste anything on you.

And this was 100% Empire's decision anyway, not mine. Stop doubt casting things that inconvenience you and your tiny bubble of wtf.

@AD...in what world would it make sense to keep lying about token distribution after Empire/Zar's scum flip in the nightless? Two people that apparently have as much distain for being scum as I do make a

thousand

percent sense to want to place tokens in the town pile. Especially when, as you can see, it's hard as fuck to be scum in a nightless setup. What game do you think we would've wanted so much that we would put a preference of tokens on it? Seriously. And what's the point in doubt casting the token distribution of it doesn't matter to you?

AD needed to comment on something so he doesn't like as much as a non-entity as aronis and the only relevant thing he could comment on was the token thing.

Also you guys didn't want to lynch the lurkers day 1. Now live with them and forever doubt their alignment.

[singersigner]

My condolences Titus.
Sorry to hear. Hope you're doing okay.

[Untrod Tripod]

what's the point? are you actually going to follow my reads?

it kind of seems like you're dead set on mislynching me, so I have no real reason to assume it will affect your play at all. but what the hell I'll go ahead and post shit anyway

I think Gamma is smart enough and good enough at reading me to know that my play was based on having drawn a major power role, so him trying to make a behavioral case on me is bananas. I've been vibing pretty hard that I was sitting on a trump card. the fact that YOU did not pick up on this did not surprise me because afaik you don't really do behavior for reads? also gamma's over the top theatrical reaction to me scumreading him screams scum to me. I have no reason to believe that town gamma would do anything other than shrug at it. THEREFORE I think gamma picked up on my status as a major power role and has just been push push pushing at it because he wants to get the town power role lynched. his reaction to my earlier attempts to posse up are weird to me because the reaction I have come to expect from gamma would have been "let's do it. this game is bananas and full of thick dumbdumbs, so let's try to make shit happen". Him pushing me away reads as scum to me because he already has his partners to swing votes around with and wants to avoid being seen as buddying me.

I think CDB's opportunistic hops have been scummy as shit. his entire play this game looks like lurkscum and opportunistic scum.

as far as Oversoul goes, you provided a really solid argument for why his reactions to my claim were town-motivated but I really am just going to go with my gut on this one. his fakeclaims look like he wanted to try to 1 for 1 himself because he figured it would help his faction to get me lynched today, but then either his buddies set him straight or he realized he had severely fucked up. it just looks like throwing mist and scum theater to me. you can disagree with me, but there it is.

I think singer is an oooooooookay bet for a whiteknighting scum, but that's mostly based on the fact that I was already scumreading her slot because of the replacement shenanigans and Empire's posting.


____________________________

I literally don't see any town motivated reason to lynch me today, even if you don't buy my claim. if I'm still alive after tonight then GO AHEAD AND DO IT, but scum would be severely misplaying by not killing me tonight so I think that's an okay thing to try to play around

[Untrod Tripod]

My condolences Titus.
Sorry to hear. Hope you're doing okay.

[singersigner]

I had the same hesitations about Gamma when he was pushing me and my team seems to agree, especially in light of his appeal to the fact that he's never been so sure! about you when everything he read as scum, I read as town. But confbias and all...

That being said, I really think you're weird for not seeing the obvious "if singer knows my sign, and singer is scum, why wouldn't she kill me?" Is that my trump card? White-knighting someone would have no know is likely Alquin I order to stay alive when I really had no threat to being lynched anyway?

CDB looks eager, but I've attributed to the rest of his team supporting him. Does make me question CES's stamp of approval for UT's lynch, though... What kind of odds is he banking on? He seems more calculated than that as town...

And I really just can't see Oversoul as scum anymore, sorry.

[Formerfish]

I survived another Mothers Day in the restaurant industry. I will be here tonight.

[Untrod Tripod]

Reck wants me to pass on that he agrees with me on the gamma scumread and offers the following quotes from a recently completed game where gamma argued against the exact tactics that he's using this game

some selections

917: "have fun yelling at people and hunting for PRs by goading people into responding to you until you flip"

1320: "Reck is a friend in real life. And although there are occasions where we're both in a game and it's more fun and better because of it, more often than not I don't actually like playing with him because he tends to make the game an angry, yelling clusterfuck when it's completely unnecessary.

I play this game to try to figure shit out and I despise when people turn it into a hate-filled "I'm better than you" screaming match instead of trying to understand the other player's positions and why they might have them

. I'm expecting at the end of the game reck will come in and say that he did it because that's what people expect him to do as town and that using all that AtE might have let him survive for another day but I hate that he feels he has to do that and be

insulting and incredulous and angry and make the game so much worse to actually play in instead of slowing down and being more self-aware of how his play looked to other people

, EVEN with him being scum here.

I'm not going to say that makes me obvtown or any other dickwaving bullshit like that. But look back at my play with the true assumption that

I hate it when people play like reck did on day 3

, and look at the reads I've got and whether or not you think those are faked."

I'm kind of opposed to metagaming, but I wanted to pass on that reck had that to say

fwiw Reck and Quilford disagree with my Oversoul scumread

[Gammagooey]

@UT- Saying that I would read you as a power role is absolutely baseless. You not trying to find scum is not a power-role tell, it's a scumtell, and there is literally no reason for me to think your play is and was from a power role instead of scum.

I reacted like that to your post because pulling a "dumb or scum" on me of all fucking people was horrifically bad considering that I have put more effort and pushes and attempts to actually find and lynch scum into this game than any other person in it.

The only person I think I've actually insulted here was probably shadoweh who decided to stop in, comment on why you shouldn't be lynched based on shit that has nothing to do with your alignment, and has since dissappeared into nothingness again, but I've certainly been a dick to a decent amount of people today.
I don't usually play in this way, as you can probably tell by reading all of my pushes in day 1. But this game has an enormous amount of hesisitation for lynching you based on alignment-irrevelant bullshit accompanied by a gaping open wound of useless and apathetic people and even some people that are trying to get scum lynched but just AREN'T going through your play and seeing if it makes sense for town to be doing the things you're doing.

The complete unwillingness of others to actually give enough of a shit about the game to call out specific people on other wagons and push REALLY, REALLY HARD with actual reasons on what they believe in is only going to stop in one way, by shooting down every shit reason you make up to call yourself town, calling out every player trying to take a safe way out instead of actually doing the work of scumhunting and rereading you, and getting you lynched and watching you flip scum.

[Gammagooey]

oh, and this is full of shit too.

his reaction to my earlier attempts to posse up are weird to me because the reaction I have come to expect from gamma would have been "let's do it. this game is bananas and full of thick dumbdumbs, so let's try to make shit happen". Him pushing me away reads as scum to me because he already has his partners to swing votes around with and wants to avoid being seen as buddying me.

Spoiler: quoted stuff

Gamma

what the fuck are you doing?

this does not make me want to form a posse with you

don't you want to form a posse?

I do

this game is just TEARING ME APART ut

and vezok really is obvtown for how he's playing

mindsets man

thats a big ask man

i'll do it but i feel like i'll immediately regret it

why

why is all of sitechat's userlist and posts under the bottom of the screen now

this is the laziest fucking garbage.
what's your opinion on singer's play and let's say cheetory and GuyInFreezer's too

gamma plz

gamma please be town

my poor heart can't take any more disappointment

gamma are you scum

be honest

You idly asking me if I'm scum instead of actually going after me or other people is not you trying to figure out alignments.

Also trying to make shit happen is my wheelhouse more than literally everyone else's in the game, and I bugged you specifically to try to make mastin happen yeseterday.

[singersigner]

Hey Gamma. Think about everything you feel about people not willing to vote UT and that's only a fraction of how I feel about Titus. So far only two people have actually been able to comment on my push on Titus with any legitimacy, other than "because she looks town" which tells me they 100% have not been reading my posts about her. Wanna take a crack at it instead of complaining that people aren't pushing the lynch you want based on a claim we only have a fraction of a reason to disbelieve?

[Gammagooey]

As I've said before I have literally no confidence in my ability to read Titus and tbh not much in other people's abilities to read that much off-the-wall posting either.

I'll go over it and comment on it specifically in a couple days, but UT's claim fits perfectly into a scum mindset of what he would do in this situation, his read on me ignores all the pushing and scumhunting and trying to get shit done more than any other player in the entire game for bullshit about GAMMA wouldn't scumread me I was an OBVPR THE WHOLLLLE TIIME is awful, his attempts at scumhunting this game are basically nonexistent, and his constant whiny discrediting of ffery instead of doing anything himself is way more likely to be coming from scum making filler content than town who gives enough of a shit to take a dump all over ffery's reads but not enough of one to bother voting anyone and trying to get them lynched today until he got run up and counterclaimed.

Also, if UT gets lynched, I'll go over Titus with Oversoul and maybe join you afterwards if I don't think Oversoul's reasons for her being town are good enough.

[Bulbazak]

1. I'm not sure I'm following your VCA.

What are you having problems with, because if it's formatting, I could fix that?

2. Why is Mollie looking at Gamma to read me?? What does she feel like he could give her that you can't? Mollieeeeeeee...why are you reaching out to someone other than meeeee.

She's not. She's been yelling at me for awhile that you're town, and I've been laying down my case for why you're scum. I believe she thinks Gamma as a third party might be able to knock some sense into me. However, the Vanilla Nightless may have done just that.

I already supplied my Vezok town read, Bulba.

Yeah, and it's crap, because it's looking at the wrong stuff. For instance, why would Vezok think TTH is scum for detecting obv. townread DV when Vezok spent his guaranteed sign detect on obv. town Tammy? One of those things is not like the other...

Curious why you went with the 50% of getting scum group rather than the 66% chance of getting scum group, especially since your VCA seems to align with the town's feelings at the moment (UT scum)?

Because I feel more strongly about my reads in the 50% group than those in the 66% group. I can follow Cheetory's line of reasoning and see how he gets from point A to point B. I'm not seeing that from Vezok, who just jumps on the popular wagons with nary a reason (again, TTH was under good reasons, but that's been shot with his recent reveal about Oversoul.). Meanwhile, I think UT is pointless since he's neutered, and I wasn't sure who I was wrong about in Aronis/Singer. All things considered, Vezok is the best vote.

Did you just do a VCA with 3 unflipped wagons and called me scum?
This is not how you do a VCA and you fucking know that. This is just bullshit to try to call me scum.
Also for anyone paying attention you only picked the wagons I voted on. There is no singer wagon there and a lot of other stuff.

I picked the wagons on the towniest players: Me (conf. town), TSO (conf. flipped town), Mastin (super duper obv. town), and TTH (conf. town). This will give us a lot of information, as they were all pushed by scum. Mastin had initially asked me to compare my wagon with TSO, as those were the only conf. town wagons I could compare at the time, and both resolved quickly. I then added the Mastin wagon after that wagon shot up quickly and was clearly scum pushed. TTH I added for an additional view, since it's also on conf. town and was pushed for bad reasons, i.e. scum were on the wagon. You'll notice I didn't put as much weight behind that one, but instead used it as a further point of reference. No other wagon compares to the way these wagons developed. And I find it bizarre that you're complaining about those being the only wagons you've been on (false), because that means you know the importance of those wagons and are scared of being associated with them.

Bulba, why are you townreading Gamma? Give reasons.

I mainly like the way his reads have developed and how he's interacted with people. You can clearly see him trying to figure other players out, which means that he doesn't have all the information and that his reads are developing naturally.

@Titus: MS wants to asks you what do you think of bulba's VCA.

Hey, why is MS not talking to me, or heck, even mentioning me? This is the second time we've even heard about MS in the entire game. I have a hard time believing that your slot is town and that MS has not seen town-me and told you to reach out, because that is totally something I would have expected from MS-town by now.

Would you say you're engaging in helping the town?
What exactly do you envision that would look like?

Lynching scum and not posting immense walls of nothing to boast your ego.

So you've not been reading any of my posts. That's nice to know.

Mina thinks Bulb's VCA is gross and thinks he was mildly appealing to us with his "oh well VCA says you can live another day" even though it was shallow at best. The only thing I've liked from him so far was his approach to the Bane mechanic D2 because it seemed thought out and coming from a town-motivated mindset.

What does "gross" mean, because it sounds like Mina doesn't have any sort of real thoughts about my conclusions whatsoever. Heck, you seemed confused earlier. If Mina really understood what I said, wouldn't she have explained it to you by now, which should have resulted in some questions from you? Heck, given that, why would I even care about appealing to you, especially since my stance so far has been "lynch with fire"?

On to page 205.

[Oversoul]

Vezok, scum would not advocate for a UT lynch when they could kill him.

That's a shitty argument. If UT were actually Alquin, you bet scum would want him lynched.

Yeah. I agree with CDB. If I was scum I would probably try to force the lynch through too.

[Oversoul]

Oversoul, that dickery was needlessly water-muddying and I wish you hadn't done it.

In what way?

[Oversoul]

We do if we leave him alive today. He is already baned, we could get lucky and hit another scum with our two lynches today. :shrug:

As much as I want to lynch UT and follow Gamma, I think the best course of action is to search elsewhere.

Also, now that the game has ended, Empire replaced into this game FROM a scum slot. Interesting that he chose a scum slot initially.
Makes me les certain about his replacing in.

It's like 9% he gets scum. I don't actually think he put tokens on town there.

Singer, I don't know why you got so defensive over these two posts. I meant to say scum in the second one. That was a brain fart.

I really think that we should take UT off the table for lynch today. If he is Alquin, his death is too irresistible for scum. They will most likely kill him tonight. He is already Baned anyway, so letting him go for another night is not too horrible.