A Brief Treatise On Magickal Theory And Practice

[Yaw]

Sounds like a good idea for an addition.

I briefly considered the hedge magic "what you do comes back to you threefold" which was mentioned in FATE, because it essentially covers

everything

. But that would require making the world work in that way, which seems like too difficult a rule to enforce with what we have...

[jeep]

I'm keeping this for posterity, but skip down two, since I think we decided to make this an extra.

Here are some thoughts... I have a lot of "story" and other thoughts written down, but instead of posting a complete system, I thought I'd run this part by everyone.

Magic in the world of Amstaad is broken into five parts.

Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Spirit

The first four can be accessed only by people with a Sorcery Aspect. (shoudl we have four sorcery aspects instead of skills and have a set of skills for the types of spells?) This opens up the Sorcery Column. Spirit can be accessed by anyone, but each in their own way. With the Alchemy, Divination, or Conjuration Aspects you get another relevant pyramid. Sorcerers can only use spirit in the way that "everyone" can use spirit.

[col]Fire[col]Hot, Dry[col]Energy, assertiveness, passion, light, heat, "life" [col]Air[col]Hot, Wet[col]Mind, intellect, consciousness, communication, weather, "breath" [col]Water[col]Cool, Wet[col]Emotion, intuition, sea, "blood" [col]Earth[col]Cool, Dry[col]Body, practicality, restraint, materialism, sex, protection, "form" [col]Spirit[col]None[col]Exists in all places and cannot be moved, but naturally circulates through all things. See spirit magic, below. Spirit is the realm of life.

I'm considering if we should allow for making your own elements in a pinch… but it's got to be difficult.
As air becomes warm and rarefied, air becomes fire;
as it cools and condenses, it becomes water and then earth.

Elemental Magic:

Sorcery will open up the Skills Column. You automatically get:
• Need to determine the actual default

[col]Fire Magic[col]Mediocre [col]Air Magic[col]Mediocre [col]Water Magic[col]Mediocre [col]Earth Magic[col]Mediocre [col]Spirit Magic[col]None [col]Ritual Magic[col]Average

You do not need to follow the Pyramid, but a column instead. This means that you must have as many skills in the rank below to support the skill advancement. That is: To get Great Fire Magic, you must have Good in one of the other magics (which means you must have a fair in another, etc). This only applies to skills that are above "average". That is, you can advance to average in everything without keeping a mediocre. But to go to FAIR Fire Magic, you must have an Average level in another skill.

To make the skill pyramid more interesting, we might try:
If you want to learn a particular spell very well, you can add it as a skill. However, THAT skill will be used instead of the generic skill level. Notice that learning specific spells will help you increase your skills column, but you will be forced into using that skill level for that spell. The mods will decide the difficulty of the specific spell and you will start between abysmal to poor for that spell, depending on their decision.

As you can see it take significant study to become a great sorcerer, this will require that the main skills pyramid be a little lighter than other folks.

You make a challenge roll on the lowest skill level for the elements involved. You will need to make a case for why each element is included and why any are not considered. Remember you may need to "move" elements at the target for some effects and that element counts.


For simple spells the following modifiers will be considered.

• Have related non-magic skill: +1 for every level above average in that skill.
  
• Time to cast: +1 if you take your time, -1 if you rush
  
• Abundance of Elements: -1 is rare
  
• Significant compression of element: -1
  
• Only one element: +2
  
• Each element beyond 2: -1
  
• All (at least 2) Elements in equal amounts: +1
  
• Elements in differing amounts: -1
  
• Requires Finesse: -1
  
• Duration: +1 if instant, -1 if medium, -2 if long duration… OR can reroll the spell for long

For complex spells, spell casting is a Dynamic Challenge.

Generic Spell Challenge Components

Gather elements
Mix and Shape elements
Project effect
Take effect

The measure of success from each component will roll over to the next step.

Gather Elements Test

To cast spells, you will need to gather the appropriate resources. In general, the more dramatic the effect the more resources you need. If the resources are in great abundance relative to your need, the mod may automatically pass the test. But if not, you will need to pass a skill test for each element.

Roll against "Average"

The following modifiers should be used:
[col]Relative Quantity[col]Modifier [col]Great Abundance[col]Auto Pass [col]Very abundant[col]+2 [col]Abundant[col]+1 [col]Enough/Average[col]0 [col]Rare[col]-1 [col]Extremely rare[col]-2 [col]Non-existant[col]Auto fail

[col]time to gather[col]Modifier [col]Take extra time[col]+1 [col]Rush[col]-1

Mix and Shape Elements Test

Some spells are tricky. The more elements involved, the more difficult the spell (in general).
The mod will determine the complexity of the spell and add the following modifiers

• Significant compression of element: -1
  
• Only one element: +2
  
• Each element beyond 2: -1
  
• All (at least 2) Elements in equal amounts: +1
  
• Elements in differing amounts: -1
  
• Requires Finesse: -1

The MoS from this will apply to next step. -2 or less and you fail to make the elements mix.

Project Effect Test:

Holding the elements together correctly is difficult.

Roll with the following modifiers:

Your MoS from Mix Elements (The better the mixing, the better they stay together)

[col]Duration[col]Modifier[col]Example [col]Instant[col]+1[col]Spark (note that even with tinder, a spark is not guaranteed to start the fire) [col]Short[col]0[col]Light fire (you have to hold the fire together until the fire lights) [col]Medium[col]-1[col]Fireball (you have to hold it together until it hits your opponent) [col]Long[col]-2[col] Wall of fire- the mod may have you re-roll occasionally

[col]Range[col]Modifier[col]Description [col]Touch[col]+1[col]Within arms reach [col]Short [col]0[col]A couple steps [col]Medium[col]-1[col]An easy toss of a baseball by an average Joe [col]Long [col]-2[col]Within line of site [col]Out of site[col]-3 or impossible[col]You can't see it

Your MoS from this roll, will be a bonus/penalty for the Take Effect step.

Take Effect Test

You make a challenge roll against your target. Some targets have no resistance and in these cases, success is automatic. If you are casting on a sentient being, they always have some resistance.
[col]Bonus[col]Modifier [col]Willing recipient[col]+1


Your MoS may affect the strength or duration of the spell.

[Yaw]

Preliminary notes:

Like the first table. Elements are fairly ubiquitous, so there shouldn't be any need to make your own. If there were, I think it might be more interesting to just have that as a limitation on the system that scarcity matters.

As air becomes warm and rarefied, air becomes fire;
as it cools and condenses, it becomes water and then earth.

Minor point -- traditionally fire/water and air/earth are the opposing pairs. Here, it's air/water and fire/earth. Is that intentional? The nice thing about using traditional elements is that most people have a general "sense" of them even if they're not sure of how far metaphorically to stretch them. But if we're changing the traditional sense, it might throw off players' understandings of how to work this skill.

Not sure how I feel about the new pyramid of sorcery skills. In a way, I like that it makes sorcery in general accessible, but makes it difficult to get up to higher skill levels while maintaining, for example, fighting skills. I get a sense this is going to be unbalanced, though, because sorcerers now have to try to work with

two

pyramids where everyone else only gets one. (Also, what happens to the general Sorcery skill that opens up this second pyramid? Does going up to Sorcery: Fair do anything?) I'm not averse to taking Sorcery off the pyramid and running it like an extra -- that alone would temper being too good at magick and fighting together. But making it such an extensive thing off the pyramid feels like too much of a hit for a sorcerer to take.

In looking through this, I think we have to consider not just how the sorcerer character will conceive of his/her spells, but how we expect the

player

to give directions to the mod. For example, is it reasonable to expect a player to say, "I want to take a lot of fire, mix it with air to form a ball of a yard in diameter, and then propel it with air towards the goblin on the left?" Or is, "I want to throw a fireball at that goblin," acceptable? I wouldn't want this to get too unwieldy.

Modifiers -- I think there needs to be a consideration of scale in here somewhere. It's sort of in duration, but I don't think that's quite it. More the idea that making a spark is easier than a fireball because of how

much

fire has to be gathered, more than how long the effect will last.

• Time to cast: +1 if you take your time, -1 if you rush
  
• Abundance of Elements: -1 is rare
  
• Significant compression of element: -1
  
• Only one element: +2
  
• Each element beyond 2: -1
  
• All (at least 2) Elements in equal amounts: +1
  
• Elements in differing amounts: -1
  
• Requires Finesse: -1

Absolute yes to taking time, abundance, and finesse. Only one element makes sense too. The multiple elements stuff seems a bit odd -- Two elements in differing amounts is the same as three elements in the same amounts? I can see why adding extra elements increases the difficulty, but why does differing vs. same amounts matter?

Also, I'm not sure that sorcerers would understand compression of elements, or conceive of things in this way. Sort of a magic vs. physics thing. (Also, since this only could apply to air, it seems like more of an exception than a rule.)

[jeep]

Okay, if we move to a single sorcery extra, then here are the parts left to discuss. My spirit magic will work the same way, so that is another bonus to doing that.

Magic in the world of Amstaad is broken into five parts:
Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Spirit

The first four can be accessed only by people with a Sorcery Aspect. This opens up the Sorcery Extra. Spirit can be accessed by anyone, but each in their own way. With the Alchemy, Divination, or Conjuration Aspects you get another relevant extra. Sorcerers can only use spirit in the way that "everyone" can use spirit.

[col]Fire[col]Hot, Dry[col]Energy, assertiveness, passion, light, heat, "life" [col]Air[col]Hot, Wet[col]Mind, intellect, consciousness, communication, weather, "breath" [col]Water[col]Cool, Wet[col]Emotion, intuition, sea, "blood" [col]Earth[col]Cool, Dry[col]Body, practicality, restraint, materialism, sex, protection, "form" [col]Spirit[col]None[col]Exists in all places and cannot be moved, but naturally circulates through all things. See spirit magic, below. Spirit is the realm of life.

I'm considering if we should allow for making your own elements in a pinch… but it's got to be difficult.
As air becomes warm and rarefied, air becomes fire;
as air cools and condenses, it becomes water and then earth.

Elemental Magic:

Sorcery Aspect will open up the extra skill of Sorcery that is not in the pyramid. It cannot every exceed your maximum pyramid skill by more than one rank.

For simple spells the following modifiers will be considered.

• Have related non-magic skill: +1 for every level above average in that skill.
  
• Time to cast: +1 if you take your time, -1 if you rush
  
• Relative Abundance of Elements: -1 is rare
  
• Only one element: +2
  
• Each element beyond 2: -1
  
• Requires Finesse: -1
  
• Duration: +1 if instant, -1 if medium, -2 if long duration… OR can reroll the spell for long

For complex spells, spell casting is a Dynamic Challenge.

Generic Spell Challenge Components

Gather elements
Mix and Shape elements
Project effect
Take effect

The measure of success from each component will roll over to the next step.

Gather Elements Test

To cast spells, you will need to gather the appropriate resources. In general, the more dramatic the effect the more resources you need. If the resources are in great abundance relative to your need, the mod may automatically pass the test. But if not, you will need to pass a skill test for each element.

Roll against "Average"

The following modifiers should be used:
[col]Relative Quantity[col]Modifier [col]Great Abundance[col]Auto Pass [col]Very abundant[col]+2 [col]Abundant[col]+1 [col]Enough/Average[col]0 [col]Rare[col]-1 [col]Extremely rare[col]-2 [col]Non-existant[col]Auto fail

[col]time to gather[col]Modifier [col]Take extra time[col]+1 [col]Rush[col]-1

Mix and Shape Elements Test

Some spells are tricky. The more elements involved, the more difficult the spell (in general).
The mod will determine the complexity of the spell and add the following modifiers

• Only one element: +2
  
• Each element beyond 2: -1
  
• All (at least 2) Elements in equal amounts: +1
  
• Elements in differing amounts: -1
  
• Requires Finesse: -1

The MoS from this will apply to next step. -2 or less and you fail to make the elements mix.

Project Effect Test:

Holding the elements together correctly is difficult.

Roll with the following modifiers:

Your MoS from Mix Elements (The better the mixing, the better they stay together)

[col]Duration[col]Modifier[col]Example [col]Instant[col]+1[col]Spark (note that even with tinder, a spark is not guaranteed to start the fire) [col]Short[col]0[col]Light fire (you have to hold the fire together until the fire lights) [col]Medium[col]-1[col]Fireball (you have to hold it together until it hits your opponent) [col]Long[col]-2[col] Wall of fire- the mod may have you re-roll occasionally

[col]Range[col]Modifier[col]Description [col]Touch[col]+1[col]Within arms reach [col]Short [col]0[col]A couple steps [col]Medium[col]-1[col]An easy toss of a baseball by an average Joe [col]Long [col]-2[col]Within line of sight [col]Out of sight[col]-3 or impossible[col]You can't see it

Your MoS from this roll, will be a bonus/penalty for the Take Effect step.

Take Effect Test

You make a challenge roll against your target. Some targets have no resistance and in these cases, success is automatic. If you are casting on a sentient being, they always have some resistance.
[col]Bonus[col]Modifier [col]Willing recipient[col]+1


Your MoS may affect the strength or duration of the spell.

[jeep]

Here are some thoughts for discussion. I'm still working through the nuts and bolts, but if anything here seems out of place, let me know. If you have any ideas, let me know.

Spirit Magic

Spirit magic is a quite a bit different. It can be accessed by ANYONE, but to varying degrees and most people don't even realize when it's being used. Spirit magic is split in three parts, the physical part- aether symbolized by Salt, the spiritual part- symbolized by sulfur and the conduit connecting the two- symbolized by mercury.

Aether is flowing through everything. (Think of the Force). However, it generally cannot be moved because of the link to the spirit side.

The alchemist is able to manipulate this link to make very small, subtle changes- however by doing so, he affects the nature of the universe. This is why you do not see big fancy shows like the Sorcerers have. Alchemists can see and manipulate the conduit between spirit and aether.

The diviner is able to use some method to see the aether. It cannot be seen by the naked eye, so generally some ritual is involved and the results are interpreted. The diviner works with Aether. Dourgrim has some examples of how various cultures have been able to see the course of Aether. It cannot be changed (except, indirectly, by alchemists).

The conjurer works with spirit. No one knows how al-Istari discovered the methods, but through his methods one is able to make out of body trips to the Astral Realms. The conjurer cannot manipulate spirit, instead he uses it to travel to other dimensions to deal with beings of various types.

By taking the aspect Spirit Magic, you can gain one of the following extras:
Alchemy, Divination, or Conjuration

This skill can be advanced by spending skill points on it, but cannot exceed your highest pyramid skill by more than one.

Conjuration is left solely up to the mod because I'm temporarily stumped. The conjurer can only have one item per aspect (and it doesn't refresh until the item is returned) plus one item per step above average. Basically I suggest the following modifiers:
Skip plot -1
Advance plot +1
Offering is less valuable to the "general" public: -1 or more depending on the value difference
Offering is more valuable to the "general" public: +1
+1 per "level" of the being… I don't know what beings will be available

Divination:
Many thoughts, but some conflict so I'm not sure yet.

Alchemy:
Like Sorcery, alchemy is a complicated skill. While the average alchemist can sense the spiritual nature of something, it's more difficult to determine how slight changes can affect things. Magical healing can only be performed by an alchemist. With their basic understanding of the nature of things, they will often know which herbs are better at healing, etc. As such, much of their more common magic is really just mundane application of knowledge gained by magic.

The difficulty of a spell depends on the amount of change that is being made to the item. Alchemy deals with the following 4 areas: Decomposition, Modification, Separation, and Union.

I see alchemists doing the following:
Making potions
"Setting" Magic (That is enchanting items… I see this as a ritual usually requiring a sorcerer. The sorcerer will apply elements in some way, and the alchemist will alter the properties of the item to match that)
Healing

All of alchemy seems more difficult than sorcery. I'll make a general template for each of these challenges. Simple potions and healing can probably be done in a single test, but complicated stuff might take more. For example, a potion of "cure cold" will be easier to create than a generic "potion of cure disease" since there are so many diseases that it would be more difficult to cure any of them.

Healing would involve seeing the nature of a person and then altering it to be the way it SHOULD be. The bigger the change, the more difficult.

[Yaw]

I think that it's probably simpler to run the other magic categories similar to sorcery (that is, aspect for Alchemy with Alchemy skills as extras, same for Divination and Conjuration). It gives the players some consistency for character creation, and we can make things fit into each category without having to worry too much. It also makes it clearer that some magics (like Alchemy and Conjuration) are mutually exclusive.

Which breaks this down into three separate categories. (And we're going to have to figure out where Ritual Magick fits as well, but that can wait until we have the more basic things figured out.)

The key word for Alchemy in the original idea I had is "Nature". So I'm not sure going completely spirit quite works here. It's more like sorcery is fire/water/air/earth, conjuration is spirit, and alchemy is somewhere between the two (spirit in matter). Which seems to make sense here -- using the processes of Decomposition/Earth, Modification/Fire, Separation/Air, Union/Water to influence Spirit (Salt/Sulfur/Mercury), or vice versa. I just think it wants to be a little more holistic.

I also think the big elephant-in-the-room for Alchemy is the issue of time -- how long it takes to perform an effect, and how that relates in particular to healing. It's probably worth having a separate "Heart" skill (yes, I know that doesn't exist anymore for characters) for Healing anyway, which would be along the lines of a battlefield medic. It wouldn't invalidate Alchemy at all, but would allow for a bit more flexibility. (Think of someone with Healing skill like a first aider, and someone with Alchemy like a doctor.)

I'll leave Divination for when you have thoughts in better order. (Except for one thing -- I wrote out the different culture things; it wasn't Dour's. )

Conjuration is definitely entirely Spirit-based. Practically-speaking, I see it coming down to a couple of issues:

Time -- How long the journey to the other plane takes, and how long it takes to return with the item. This is more of a "what can you do on the field of battle" thing. I sort of feel like there's an "optimal time" and a "minimum time" here, and that anything between the two would get a time penalty. This is a success/failure thing.

Power of item -- This doesn't work on the level of success/failure. If you can make the journey, you can bring back the item. That said, power level ties directly into how long the item can stay "summoned" -- more powerful items drain the Conjurer's power faster, and so stay around for less time.

The basic idea would be to have two rolls of some type, one to determine success, the other to determine how long the item would stay. So at the end of the roll, the mod would know, for example, "X is successful in getting the magic sword. It will stay around for 2 hours." I don't expect the mod to tell the player that last part, though.

The other issue with conjuration is control. Completely irrelevant for inanimate objects. But if the conjurer summons something "live", what happens? Is it automatically under the conjurer's control, or does it have "free will" and there's a power struggle? And how does this relate to the power of item part?

Hope that helps a bit...

[jeep]

I don't understand the comment about breaking this into three... it is split into three. I understand that there is no flavor in there to explain why they are exclusive. But they deal with spirit in different ways.

Ritual is the one that all magic users have and it's how they can work together. I don't see that being difficult to define, just so situational that the mods will be on the spot.

The key word for Alchemy in the original idea I had is "Nature". So I'm not sure going completely spirit quite works here. It's more like sorcery is fire/water/air/earth, conjuration is spirit, and alchemy is somewhere between the two (spirit in matter).

Isn't that how I had alchemy? It's the conduit between the physical and the spiritual that they affect.

So with conjuration you CAN bring it back? Interesting... so it's just if you bring something too powerful, you can't necessarily keep it here. Okay, I can work with that.

Doesn't the existing description indicate that there is a power struggle?

I'll talk about more when I return. Just my first thoughts.

-JEEP

-JEEP

[jeep]

Okay, so three aspects. That's not really a big deal. I like the flavor of them being the ways of accessing spirit for magic, though.

I think the "how long does stuff take" can be discussed. I think that healing wounds should take time relative to how bad the wound is. Actually, the amount of change that needs to be made is the key to determining how long it should take. The more it needs to change, the more time it should take.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

I don't understand the comment about breaking this into three... it is split into three. I understand that there is no flavor in there to explain why they are exclusive. But they deal with spirit in different ways.

Sure. I think we were getting confused because you were speaking philosophically, and I was talking about how the rules might be better seen by the players...if that makes sense. Saying, "players must pick a conjuration aspect and choose conjuration skills as extras," doesn't say anything about what that conjuration aspect or those skills entail.

Ritual is the one that all magic users have and it's how they can work together. I don't see that being difficult to define, just so situational that the mods will be on the spot.

I don't see it being difficult either. I just figure it's best done last.

Isn't that how I had alchemy? It's the conduit between the physical and the spiritual that they affect.

Probably was. Consider it clarifying, then.

So with conjuration you CAN bring it back? Interesting... so it's just if you bring something too powerful, you can't necessarily keep it here. Okay, I can work with that.

Doesn't the existing description indicate that there is a power struggle?

Yeah. If you're successful in making the journey, you're getting what you asked for. It's just that if it's too powerful, it's only going to stick around for a millisecond.

I think there's two ways of running it. One would be to have living things come back as "slaves" -- they'd sit around and do nothing unless directed. The other would be to have living things come back with their own free will, which the conjurer constantly has to keep under control. This would mean living things, by their nature, couldn't stick around as long as inanimate objects. It also opens up a loophole whereby a conjurer could become very negligent and just let a living thing loose without trying to control it. We sort of have to decide which direction to go. I see both as valid.

[jeep]

More advanced conjurers learn how to direct the actions of Astral beings. It is possible for lesser conjurers to summon Astral beings -- and if the beings are sufficiently weak, to keep them around for a while -- but it is in many cases unwise as the beings will behave according to their own natural wills.

Doesn't this answer how we were thinking about it, at least?

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Well, crap. It would help if I could remember what I wrote in the first place.

[jeep]

Divination:

I think it's best to leave this simple.

Roll and compare the result to average. If the method is not the method they are used to give a -1. If it's related to something they are already fairly familiar with then give a +1.

Legendary - Give as much information as the story can bear without breaking
Epic - Give a LOT of information
Superb - Give a bit of information
Great - Give a little information
Good - Give a clue-by-four hint
Fair - Give a strong hint
Average - Hint at some information
Mediocre - Give a weak hint
Poor - Give a couple possible hints... some of the information false
Terrible - The information cannot be interpreted
Abysmal - Nothing happens

-JEEP

[jeep]

Conjuration

The conjurer can only have one item per aspect level.

The skill level will determine how easy it is for them to maintain the item

Basically I suggest the following modifiers:
Skip plot -1
Advance plot +1
Offering is less valuable to the "general" public: -1 or more depending on the value difference
Offering is more valuable to the "general" public: +1
Blood offering: +1
+1 per "level" of the being… I don't know what beings will be available

Does size have any bearing? If it's a being, then you need to roll for control...

I would suggest that the time taken be dictated by the MoS. Average could maybe take 30 seconds (time doesn't pass the same in the Astral Realms) and adjust from there?

I would also suggest that each night, the roll has to be made again to see if the item can be held overnight.

-JEEP

[jeep]

Alchemy:

Magical Healing:
I'd say depending on the severity of the wounds... I think the Alchemist should determine how much he wants to heal and then roll his skill.

Average: Takes 60 seconds per "injured" healed Adjust from there? On a poor or less, then the healing fails completely.

Mixing potions:
We will need to define the complexity of the potions. I think this needs to be done on a case by case basis. If it's pretty specific, then it should be easier. A potion to cure the flu will be easier than a potion to cure whatever disease the person has.

Enchanting stuff:
Pshew... again, depends on how much he is changing things. I think that using Ritual magic to "set" a spell that is being held by another would be the "easy way" and actually hardening the steel yourself (or whatever) would be harder than that.

If it's a subtle change, like making wood more dense, then it might be easier.

-JEEP

[Pie_is_good]

As for the elemental magic, I think there should be some degree of restriction to opposing elements - I'm not sure exactly how it should come into play, but a sorceror who uses Fire heavily should have restricted access to water-based spells.

Jeep, your modifiers look good. I think an additional table needs to be made, though, that translates MoS to time taken. Maybe if someone misses the MoS by 2 or less, they couldn't cast the spell this round, but they haven't lost it completely and can try again the next round without expending another spell. Or something like that.

Also, Mikehart posted some material on how many spells per day are legitimately castable, and what those spells would be. As for the spells-per-day, I don't like the "X spells in category 1" approach - it seems unneccesarily restrictive. I'd suggest that characters have a pool of magical power for the day, based on some formula of POW (and potentially a skill). For example, if BoBo has Superb (7) POW and is Good (5) at Magical Endurance, his pool holds a maximum of (2x5 + 4x7 =) 38 Power Points, which recover at the rate of (0.5 x 7 rounded down =) 3 points per hour of rest.

Each spell type is then assigned a Power Point cost - e.g., each time you throw a small ball of fire at an enemy, your pool is depleted by 5 points. Once you run out of points, you can no longer cast until you rest up.

I'd rather not restrict players to dealing exclusively with specific spells that the mods create pregame - that takes the fun out of magic, IMHO. Rather, different quantities of the various elements should be assigned specific rules, the way those elements are shaped should be assigned specific rules, and the players should steer it from there.

[jeep]

I don't like the "you have this many spell points" method. It seems like it will hinder the story in favor of mechanics. I was hoping it could be more along the lines of:
If your aspect remains unchecked, you can attempt to cast something. If you fail dramatically the aspect will become checked or if you use it to increase a roll, then you will have used up your magic for the day. I think it's nicely balanced that way since it allows magic users to do a lot of easy stuff, but not so much hard stuff.

One of the requirements for the magic system we're putting together is to have it free form. So we just need to figure out how to rate the difficult of a spell.

As to restricting opposing spell arenas, the older proposal of having a skill for each type of magic would do that. But I'm starting to lean away from that. The players can handle aptitude in one element or another in the story if they want. But I like the simplicity of just figuring out the difficulty and going from there. No need to add in the complexity of a characters aptitudes. If we want this, then I propose going back to a skill column with each elemental magic having it's own skill.

As to having a low MoF, you can attempt again, I think that's fine. But I lean towards "something happens, but it's not quite what you wanted."

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Divination -- I'm pretty much good with that. The only change I could see would be a harsher penalty to types of divination the character isn't used to. (Trying to read a message written in Japanese with no knowledge of the language or alphabet has to be worth more than a -1 penalty.)

Conjuration -- One item per aspect level sounds like a reasonable restriction.

For skip plot/advance plot, it almost feels a bit too subjective. While I agree that we don't want characters being able to skip entire quests just by "finding" an item through conjuring it up, it's probably easier to just have them incapable of doing so. ("I'm sorry, the astral plane is all out of those.") The other aspect here is that using conjuration to skip quests is unethical for another reason -- the item isn't going to be sticking around, and when it disappears, whoever received it is going to be rather pissed off at having been cheated.

I think I'd rather make the offering aspect simpler. Like no boost or penalty if they give an offering (since that's part of using conjuration by definition), but a definite penalty if they have an unfamiliar/inferior offering.

I'd like to see a time penalty in there somewhere. Time may pass differently in other planes, but the conjurer still has to get himself into a meditative state, go "out of body", and travel to the astral plane (and back) on his/her own. I'd tend to think even 5 minutes is pushing it for speed, particularly if there are distractions around.

Size, living/nonliving, complexity, power level, etc. should all have bearing, but more on the time the object will last than the success in getting it in the first place. If it's too powerful, the balance here is that it just flashes back to where it came from in under a second and the conjurer gets

very

tired.

Alchemy -- Looks fine. I think there was a bit of confusion in there with respect to ritual magick, but that's it. (Ritual magick only lets magic people of the same type work together. That said, it

is

possible for magic people of different types to "piggyback" on one another, for example, having a sorcerer create something, then handing it off to an alchemist fo be enchanted.)

Later stuff -- It's good that Pie raised the whole "lots of spells" issue, as it's what we were playing around with fatigue to try to get under control. Using up aspects seems like an elegant way to handle it -- the more you try to cast stuff, the more likely you are to fail at some point, and failure can hit in unexpected ways. This does get back at one of the minor outstanding issues -- we have to figure out the aspect refresh rate -- but that's not a big deal.

I definitely like keeping this more free-form. It gives players more control over how they want to tell their own characters' side of the story.

Also, just to clarify for Pie...FATE does away with attributes entirely. (FUDGE doesn't, but tends to minimize their use, although there are some ways around that...) So if FATE is being used, there's no POW attribute to use. There's only the magic skill itself. (That said, even though players don't have to consider the whole body/heart/mind/spirit thing in creating their characters,

we

as mods should still consider it when coming up with balanced quests/storylines for the characters to interact with. That's all that's really needed to make them important.)

[jeep]

So would this be acceptable for the final word on how divination works?

Divination:

Roll the skill.

If the method is not the method they are used to give a peanalty of

-2

, if the mod thinks it's WAY off, then it can be more off.
If it's related to something they are already fairly familiar with then give a +1 (it's easier to interpret).

If the result is:
Legendary - Give as much information as the story can bear without breaking
Epic - Give a LOT of information
Superb - Give a bit of information
Great - Give a little information
Good - Give a clue-by-four hint (sometimes people need to be hit with a clue-by-four)
Fair - Give a strong hint
Average - Hint at some information
Mediocre - Give a weak hint
Poor - Give a couple possible hints... some of the information false
Terrible - The information cannot be interpreted
Abysmal - Nothing happens

I'm wondering if this isn't a little too good, even. Might consider shifting the scale up one. At what level will the aspect become checked?

Also, I envision these taking 30-60 minutes.

-JEEP

[jeep]

Conjuration Updated (again)

The conjurer can only have one item per aspect level.

The skill level will determine how easy it is for them to get and maintain the item

If there are no distractions, then the attaining the item should auto pass if they have the offering.

If the offering is not correct, then roll skill. If you get better than good, you get the item. You get -1 for an unfamiliar offering, -1 more if the offering is of lesser value

If there are distractions, then I think:
An injury box being checked should bring you out of the trance.
less than that and you roll skill to see if you can maintain the trance.

Once you enter the trance, you will be "out" for 10 minutes or so? It takes 5 minutes to enter the trance if not distracted... longer if you are distracted.

You then roll for duration:
-1 if the item is living.

If the size is:
Finger sized +2
Fist sized +1
Body sized no bonus/penalty
Horse sized -1
House sized -2
Castle sized -3
Bigger: mod discretion

Legendary - Until returned, re-roll weekly or monthly at mod discretion.
Epic - 2 days, then re-roll
Superb - 1 day, then re-roll
Great - 1 day
Good - 12 hours or so
Fair - 8 hours or so
Average - 4 hours or so
Mediocre - 1 hour or so
Poor - 15 minutes or so
Terrible - a minute or so
Abysmal - Imperceptable
Abysmal-1 - Imperceptable and the aspect is checked (you may aw well use it to re-roll )


It the thing brought over has a will:
The mod will assign a will rating to the being and you need to challenge it's will vs your skill.

Legendary - Controlled for 1 week, re-roll for control then (if it happens to be around )
Epic - Controlled for 1 day, re-roll for control at that time
Superb - Controlled for 8 hours
Great - Controlled for 4 hours
Good - Controlled for 1 hour
Fair - Controlled for 1 round
Average - Uncontrolled for 1 round (average conjurers can bring things over, but cannot maintain them.)
Mediocre - Uncontrolled controlled for 1 hour
Poor - Uncontrolled for 4 hours
Terrible - Uncontrolled for 8 hours
Abysmal - Uncontrolled for 1 day

So you could bring a creature over and have it stay for a day, then take 8 hours (if you are terrible ompared to it's will) to get it under control. The rest of the time, you would be in control of it.

[jeep]

Alchemy Update:

Alchemy seeks self perfection. To do that, an Alchemist must study the nature of things. It's all well and good, but there needs to be a practical side so that the alchemists can make a living. To that end, they have three main pursuits:

Panacea

: Making a potion so potent that it completely cures everything. While they haven't found it yet, they are making great strides in caring for people and can make a healthy living as a doctor.

Transmutation

: Some think that making their own money out of random other stuff would be useful. However, not only is it generally frowned upon as a distratction to the pursuit of perfection, it takes a heck of a lot of energy. Most alchemists simply cannot make major changes to things.

Philosopher's Stone

: Creation of an element that is easily formed into anything else.... the stem cells of the universe.

This leads to three general areas that Alchemists focus on:

Magical Healing

:
I think the Alchemist should determine how much he wants to heal and then roll his skill.

My new thoughts are:
Legendary - 5 seconds per "injured"
Epic - 30 seconds per "injured"
Superb - 1 minute per "injured"
Great - 2 minutes per injured
Good - 5 minute per injured
Fair - 10 minutes per injured
Average - 20 minute per "injured"
Mediocre - 30 minutes per "injured"
Poor - 1 hour per "injured" attempted and half of the injuries heal
Terrible - 1 hour per injured and healing doesn't happen
Abysmal - 2 hours per injured and healing doesnt' happen

For disease, the mod will need to decide how difficult it is. Those are likely to be strictly story, anyway.

Enchanting stuff/Transmutation

:
Changing something into something else. Some changes will be fairly minor- like I think hardening (tempering) steel should be relatively easy. Some things will be hard- like the classical lead into gold.

Can this be left to the mod to determine how much of a change it is? We could build up a list as time goes on. Some things I might want to do and how difficult I think it should be:

Purify Water : Poor or better succeeds as well as boiling would while good might kill the stuff that boiling can't

Harden/soften Steel : Average or better succeeds?

Mixing potions

:
We will need to define the complexity of the potions. I think this needs to be done on a case by case basis. If it's pretty specific, then it should be easier. A potion to cure the flu will be easier than a potion to cure whatever disease the person has.

I think we should have magic involved as a catalyst so that random person on the street cannot just copy exactly what the Alchemist does. I wonder if we should have "exomagic" and "endomagic" reactions (as well as exothermic and endothermic)

[Yaw]

New Conjuration stuff looks good. Upon thinking about it over dinner, I'd consider a little addition to allow a mod-discretionary penalty for large stuff on the time roll. (For example, summoning a galleon vs. summoning a sword -- the galleon's so much larger you'd expect it to suck energy faster. Similarly for summoning a dragon vs. summoning a caterpillar.)

Also liking the Alchemy. No issues I can think of with any of it. Exomagic and endomagic are pretty cool ideas, and having magic as a catalyst makes perfect sense.

[jeep]

It depends on what it takes to keep something here... but I can see that. I'll edit in a comment that the mod can create a penalty for larger stuff.

-JEEP

[Yaw]

Trying to get this in quickly...

Looking back up at sorcery, I sort of wonder if it's worth making it a touch more complex just to make interpretations easier. That is, instead of doing relative quantity on gathering of elements, do two tables and add them together before the roll -- one for how much of the element(s) you want to gather, and a second for how much is available. I know it's an extra step, but in trying to think about ritual magic (and if it isn't going to be overpowered) it would help to have a written-out idea of how large spells at each level (legendary, epic, superb, etc.) would be.

[Yaw]

Since this is the place for discussion of the other thread...

Explain difference between the life referenced in "fire" and the life referenced in "spirit."

The easiest solution would be that fire is life energy, while spirit is actual "soul" or consciousness. That's consistent while giving a clean break.

Numbered list has broken tags for spirit magic - basics.

Alchemy is the ability see and manipulate the conduit between spirit and aether.

This is the last, italicised sentence in the spirit magic - basics paragraph about alchemy. I think it's just a wording issue here...I'm not sure the best way to fix it, but I worry a little about confusion when aether is mentioned as part of the spiritual axis, which makes it look like the conduit connects spirit to spirit, doing nothing. I think some added clarity in the numbered list would help, particularly moving "aether" before the hyphen (maybe in brackets?) for consistency. There's nothing wrong with it conceptually, it's just that the sentence looks a bit funny.

Collecting the outstanding questions mentioned in the other thread:

Details on ethics need to be editted in here. (With respect to sorcery, but probably applies to other magics as well.)

EDIT IN EXAMPLES (With respect to alchemy/herbalism.)

Help define "simple" spell (For sorcery, differentiation from complex spells.)

(Any edits of that thread you see by me are fixing typos, not substance.)

[jeep]

I say feel free to edit in substance too.

I'll work on some of the wordings. I just wanted a single place to put the "current" way things work.

The easiest solution would be that fire is life energy, while spirit is actual "soul" or consciousness. That's consistent while giving a clean break.

That's basically what I was thinking when I made it. I just didn't know how to word it.

I'll work on it some more tomorrow evening (unless I can't sleep, then I'll do it tonight.)

-JEEP