Mini 1677 - Ori and the Blind Forest Mafia - Forest Revived

[Ankamius]

Vote Count 1.20

Metal Sonic (5)

- Frogging Mollie, ika, Bellaphant, Plum, Hydrangea

[L-2]

Bookitty (4)

- elusive, White Night Imagination, ZZZX, Metal Sonic

Yukari (1)

- Bookitty

ZZZX (1)

- Yukari
Bellaphant -
elusive -
Frogging Mollie -
Grib -
Hydrangea -
ika -
Plum -
singersigner -
White Night Imagination -



Not Voting (2): Grib, singersigner

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2015-06-04 11:00:00) from now, or June 4th, 11:00 AM CST (GMT-6).

singersigner is V/LA until May 26th

Prodding: N/A
Replacing: N/A

[Grib]

boop

Softclaiming. Softclaiming everywhere.

I'd only lynch MS to put a lid on this mess, but would otherwise want to lynch Bookitty.

[White Night Imagination]

you're aware that I literally just gave 2 reasons on this same page for way she's pushed this is, indeed, scummy, correct? (and that this is not the only reason I've laid out for them being scum - my reasons have "materialized" pretty steadily over the course of the game)

like, holy shit.

p-edit: @Boo

[Frogging Mollie]

also, I would like to know if fro9 has literally anything to say that isn't related to anything Yukari/MS did

while there are far stronger reasons for them being scum, one thing that I'm taking as a weak scum tell here is that fro9's focus has been entirely on Yukari and MS did with no reads elsewhere - it feels like he just wants to pop in time to time to comment on the main target rather than proactively providing content

137 was me giving reads on four players, including sorting singer separately from Mollie.

I've interacted plenty with Elusive.

I've now focused on Yukari/Metal because it was clear at least one of them are scum. You mean my 818 isn't content? It helped me sort the situation out separately from Mollie.

[Frogging Mollie]

This is a blatant lie. I refuted basically all of her points in 583, which she did not adequately address (her next post was just her pulling up MS' "replace out" issue over and over again and did not address what I was actually saying).

no, you didn't. your first point was that metal was sheeping ika in rvs when ika was clearly wanting to move the game out of rvs. then metal sheeped ika a second time still coughing up "cos its ika!" for doing so when the game was quite CLEARLY out of rvs and the awkward clearance of metal for "rvs sheeping is not a scumtell" is not applicable in the first place. I thought i pointed this out. I am pretty sure I did. no lie actually took place cos you strawmanned my argument.

She is blatantly acting here. She is doing this because she *knows* her "arguments" on MS don't hold any water, yet she's trying to push them anyway. Therefore she has to constantly play up the idea that "I haven't refuted any of her points" - when I clearly have - in the hope that people accept it as truth without cross-referencing it. She's not backing off and admitting she doesn't have any ground to stand on because she doesn't care about sorting MS here; she wants to push MS/me as scum and is making the evidence fit the conclusion and she'll look like obvscum if she backs down at this point.

This is highly disingenuous and likely scum.

I am not acting. I have pointed out as to why metal was scum and you poopooed them away. his first few questions were innocuous and there were a couple of players trying to move the game out of rvs for various reasons. I said he was asking these type of questions in lieu of actual scumhunting and the only person who addressed this was plum. I mean there is no genuine argument when you fail to address the original points in the first place within the contextual timeframe that it happened.

we were out of rvs. metal was still sheeping ika. so the defense that metal was doing it in rvs is where the lie is actually lies hehe.

mollie is pushing MS as scum. She is then faced with actual repercussions on a MS town flip. Rather than actually having conviction to lynch MS here, what does she do? She awkwardly attempts to back off in response to said repercussions.

nope. that is me waffling for a minute and wondering if I am wrong about metal. "shelving it" means I am going to start looking elsewhere to sink my teeth into in case I am wrong. I just reeeeeeaaally don't think I am. too many things about metal do not add up.

And what did she do next?

Once she sees that the possibility of me being scum even *if* MS flips town here is gaining support, she stops caring, comes out full force again, and jumps right along with it so that she has a way out of it after MS flips town - namely, pushing me as scum instead.

Note, she doesn't actually stop to consider at any point *why* me-scum would do this if MS is town.

There are potential explanations, but nothing she's posted indicates she's considering them, it's just "lol chainsaw" without explaining why it's scummy or refuting my arguments. NOTICE ANY SIMILARITY IN WHAT SHE'S DOING TO MS?

cos I feel like if metal flipped town then the town cred that wld be gained wld be obvs? like wking is a thing.

When MS flips town, molliefrog needs to burn a fucking fiery death. (And I really don't give a shit if you think I'm "lining up lynches" here, when I've explained why I'm doing this already - if you think this is the case, actually refute my points.)

okay.

[Bookitty]

you're aware that I literally just gave 2 reasons on this same page for way she's pushed this is, indeed, scummy, correct? (and that this is not the only reason I've laid out for them being scum - my reasons have "materialized" pretty steadily over the course of the game)

like, holy shit.

p-edit: @Boo

And I don't agree with you AT ALL. I think this is how Mollie plays pretty usually, I think you know it, and I think you're deliberately ignoring things MS has been doing because you have this narrative in your head of Molliescum that you can't drown out even when you should know better. I think you're confbiased from the start.

You tell me one way this differs from Mollie-town apart from the friendly Froggie. Just one. Because this is the her I've seen as town OVER and OVER, including when she fought with me for about five-six pages on first meeting.

INB4 you start talking about manipulating meta -- if you do, you can't use it to read her as scum, either.

[White Night Imagination]

You tell me one way this differs from Mollie-town apart from the friendly Froggie. Just one. Because this is the her I've seen as town OVER and OVER, including when she fought with me for about five-six pages on first meeting.

mollie-town actually fucking scumhunts

mollie-town actually has reads that have more depth and thought than "X is scum, and Y is scum for defending them, but might also be scum anyway if they're town for WK'ing them"

but if we're going to talk meta, I actually think what she's doing here is a fucking carbon copy of what she did to zmuffinman in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=37614

[Bookitty]

Reading that.

[Frogging Mollie]

I don't understand how people can't see this shit.

and I don't see how it shld be obvs that metal was doing nothing but sheeping ika outside of rvs which you insist that he was sheeping ika in rvs when that isn't what happened. like that was stage 1 which I tried to address with you but you didn't so the breakdown of communication started there. if you address this mebbe we can get somewhere cos any others until you correct the premise from which you are trying to spin from is incorrect cos what you call a refutation and what I call a strawman is pretty incompatible. so how about you address the point that metal was sheeping ika outside of rvs and asking innocuous questions in lieu of scumhunting, if you *happen* to be town cld you plz do this for me? then we can move on to point 2!

go reread what happened if you need to.

[White Night Imagination]

no, you didn't. your first point was that metal was sheeping ika in rvs when ika was clearly wanting to move the game out of rvs. then metal sheeped ika a second time still coughing up "cos its ika!" for doing so when the game was quite CLEARLY out of rvs and the awkward clearance of metal for "rvs sheeping is not a scumtell" is not applicable in the first place. I thought i pointed this out. I am pretty sure I did. no lie actually took place cos you strawmanned my argument.

this is nothing more than a semantic argument

even if it was "out of RVS", that would not change the fact that MS pretty fucking obviously wasn't taking it seriously

I am not acting. I have pointed out as to why metal was scum and you poopooed them away. his first few questions were innocuous and there were a couple of players trying to move the game out of rvs for various reasons. I said he was asking these type of questions in lieu of actual scumhunting and the only person who addressed this was plum. I mean there is no genuine argument when you fail to address the original points in the first place within the contextual timeframe that it happened. we were out of rvs. metal was still sheeping ika. so the defense that metal was doing it in rvs is where the lie is actually lies hehe.

^

even if his first questions were innocuous, it's not scummy. it is equally likely to come from town who just want to have fun early game. and regardless, I think what he did since then has been pretty fucking controversial - so it's as I said before. you think MS started off trying to appease everyone, thinking this would work for ... ??? ... and then changed his strategy for ... why ... ?

nope. that is me waffling for a minute and wondering if I am wrong about metal. "shelving it" means I am going to start looking elsewhere to sink my teeth into in case I am wrong. I just reeeeeeaaally don't think I am. too many things about metal do not add up.

yes, it is somewhat of a he-said she-said and not something I'd expect a refutation for, but it is compelling reason to think that your actions here were aimed more to fit the convenience of the situation

cos I feel like if metal flipped town then the town cred that wld be gained wld be obvs? like wking is a thing.

yes, and you don't stop to consider that...... I might miraculously have figured it out via my scum hunting ability?!?!

the way you did it feels more like you're posturing to discredit me rather than sorting my alignment. it was just "WNI's chainsaw of MS is off" and that was all there was to it.

---

I don't particularly care about walling with you when you still haven't addressed why you claimed I supposedly "never" tried to deconstruct your arguments, when I obviously did.

[White Night Imagination]

and I don't see how it shld be obvs that metal was doing nothing but sheeping ika outside of rvs which you insist that he was sheeping ika in rvs when that isn't what happened. like that was stage 1 which I tried to address with you but you didn't so the breakdown of communication started there. if you address this mebbe we can get somewhere cos any others until you correct the premise from which you are trying to spin from is incorrect cos what you call a refutation and what I call a strawman is pretty incompatible. so how about you address the point that metal was sheeping ika outside of rvs and asking innocuous questions in lieu of scumhunting, if you *happen* to be town cld you plz do this for me? then we can move on to point 2!

go reread what happened if you need to.

er....... except this is pretty blatantly not how it works?

your statement that all my other arguments follow from MS "sheeping ika in RVS" is, put bluntly, false.

Reading that.

for a more specific explanation of what I'm getting at, since I just linked it with no explanation:

mollie essentially pushed zmuffin all game without any reasoning behind it. and she wrote a lot of words and made a lot of noise about it, but when you condensed what her reasoning actually was, there was hardly anything to it - and zmuffin correctly called her out for this and eventually got her lynched. she basically did what she did here in that there was a fuckton of ATE, stroking ppl's egos, and empty statements with no backing behind them (and then constantly dodging it when she gets called out for it).

[White Night Imagination]

going out for a bit to get lunch. I'll answer questions/posts directed to me once I get back.

[Yukari]

Doesn't this go against rule 1.2?
"I even said in our gchat to froggy "mebbe yukari is the mafia role cop!" "

[Yukari]

And yea biggest reason for our scumlean view of mollie is that it just seems they could be doing better, like the cases lack real substance to them.

[Bellaphant]

Yo, I checked my role-pm and it doesn't actually say 'hermit', so sorry about that. I take a r-l day or two to warm up when replacing.

@WNI, interesting that MS decided I 'did fuck all' all my posts were scummy, and then you echo his concerns. If you've got any questions for me, rather than statements, please let me know The mollie/elusive/ms/yukari thing (with you on the side) is difficult to parse and I don't think we're going to get much out of it 'til somebody flips.

However, why is bookitty scum? I'm trying to weigh up two scummy slots, on of whom will give us a lot more information in the flip, so I need persuading here.

[Bellaphant]

@yukari, pretty sure the rules there are different for hydras?

[ika]

boop

Softclaiming. Softclaiming everywhere.

I'd only lynch MS to put a lid on this mess, but would otherwise want to lynch Bookitty.

girb to put in in context of how much i trust mollie, me and her are like you and lyrim

she knows me better then myself and that her reads tend to be deadly accurate when town. now sheep me and her for great justice

[ika]

pie go read elusive post about the meta she found and disprove that

pie if MS isnt lynch today you understand im going full out shutout on you right

(im on break)

mollie/singer: plz talk to me (yes im aware you responded singer but i need someont o stop me from outbusrting atm)

[Frogging Mollie]

this is nothing more than a semantic argument

even if it was "out of RVS", that would not change the fact that MS pretty fucking obviously wasn't taking it seriously

see when confronted with a genuine refute to what you were originally presenting you poo poo it away and call it "a semantics argument" when I keep trying to say look at the timing and the context. and you wonder why I think you are scum.

the fact that it was out of rvs nullifies your refutation cos your whole basis is that my point is shitty cos IT WAS IN RVS when I am saying it is demonstrably not the case. I keep trying to point this out and you keep dismissing it. we cannot get to point 2 unless you can actually address my point instead of poopooing it away. of the 4? games I have played with you I know 3 of them we were both town in and kept putting scum in your town category for really dumb reasons. we lost them all. muffina in touhou, desp in gm's game and sakura/nacho in touhou2. I am trying to appeal to you that if you are town, you systemically try to correct some of your weird leanings which I think are just WRONG.

if you are town I wld love to see the TOWN!YOU freaking reevaluate cos you are spinning from the wrong axis. if it takes our death in order for you to do this so be it, we will flip town and then you will be forced to do so anyway which will make your head spin.

even if his first questions were innocuous, it's not scummy. it is equally likely to come from town who just want to have fun early game. and regardless, I think what he did since then has been pretty fucking controversial - so it's as I said before. you think MS started off trying to appease everyone, thinking this would work for ... ??? ... and then changed his strategy for ... why ... ?

I think metal started off wanting to not rock the boat or make waves. there is an obvs scum strategy behind this.

yes, it is somewhat of a he-said she-said and not something I'd expect a refutation for, but it is compelling reason to think that your actions here were aimed more to fit the convenience of the situation

humour me and explain the comparative value of how it is somehow more scummy for me to continuously push metal when I think he is scum when he has not given me a reason to think otherwise vs his sudden push on me or anything that is lynch worthy other than him. he is trying to look for the 1 most likely to go through.

yes, and you don't stop to consider that...... I might miraculously have figured it out via my scum hunting ability?!?!

given I know that we are town :/.

the way you did it feels more like you're posturing to discredit me rather than sorting my alignment. it was just "WNI's chainsaw of MS is off" and that was all there was to it.

but I have explained as to why your defense of metal looks like a chainsaw. the reasons I gave are either you poopooing them away or you strawmanning them. until we get past that, I doubt any meaningful convo will follow.

I don't particularly care about walling with you when you still haven't addressed why you claimed I supposedly "never" tried to deconstruct your arguments, when I obviously did.

because I don't think that poopooing away or strawmanning arguments wrt to your original defense are an actual deconstruction of an argument?

I mean srsly. entertain the premise that metal is hypothetically scum who was not trying to make waves and blend in and mebbe work from there if you sincerely want to talk.

then we can move on to point2!

[Bellaphant]

@FroggingMollie, what do you think of the two wagons at the moment? Does one look more populated with town-reads?

[Yukari]

@Everyone on the boo wagon, what about boo is so scummy? To us boo seems very lurky, but we read this as anti-town, not as scum or town, so boo would be suboptimal lynch.
Best case scenario boo comes back and shows some activity.
Next best scenario we get boo prodded, replaced, and scumhunting before night falls.
Or, boo gets lynched without giving us much to work with.

Our lynch target shouldn't just be about getting rid of anti-town, it should be about getting rid of scum, or optimally it should be someone who not only flips scum, but gives the town more info to work with on the next day. At this point we don't see a boo lynch as revealing much info for us to work with, which means boo is a good target for scum to get lynched.

[Bellaphant]

@yukari, good question. And yeah we do have a while before deadline.

What do you think of the two wagons, actually, while we're here? This is open to everyone...

[Bookitty]

I'm just hoping I come back and show some activity. :p

[Frogging Mollie]

your statement that all my other arguments follow from MS "sheeping ika in RVS" is, put bluntly, false.

I am not saying that all your points stem from metal sheeping ika in rvs, that is what you are saying which isn't what I am saying at all.

I am saying that we are in a locked down fixture where I cannot move from point A to be B as long as you treat that metal was sheeping ika in rvs as an immoveable force as a counter to point 1. get beyond that and then we will talk.

for a more specific explanation of what I'm getting at, since I just linked it with no explanation:

mollie essentially pushed zmuffin all game without any reasoning behind it. and she wrote a lot of words and made a lot of noise about it, but when you condensed what her reasoning actually was, there was hardly anything to it - and zmuffin correctly called her out for this and eventually got her lynched. she basically did what she did here in that there was a fuckton of ATE, stroking ppl's egos, and empty statements with no backing behind them (and then constantly dodging it when she gets called out for it).

oh hai was that the game that metal was in? oh yeah! I wonder who is feeding you this shit like it is just so hard to figure out.

I am not making empty statements (oh hai discredit!) are you gonna address point1 or not and entertain the idea of working from a different premise or not.

I feel like I am getting hoarse in the throat with the repetition of this question which keeps getting ignored.

hint: saying it is a semantics argument clearly isn't doing it for me since somehow me saying that metal was scum for sheeping ika out of rvs when that is what he was doing and you not working from that trajectory sort of still puts us back at point1 which you cannot honestly come up with any answer to.

[Yukari]

I'm just hoping I come back and show some activity. :p

Any thoughts on the game? Like who is scum and why?