Mini 1677 - Ori and the Blind Forest Mafia - Forest Revived

[Bookitty]

Yukari, I've been back for a while.

Please read the game.

[Yukari]

This bothers me quite a bit because why is MS off the table now? He didn't claim. Why is Yukari trying to dismiss a wagon that is still quite significant (I haven't been tracking the wagon, to be fair, but I don't think there's been a lot of movement off it) and that hasn't been disproven by a long shot?

MS is off the table because we can sort him easily d2, this will be explained further on d2 *wink*. So just take our word for it that focusing on MS is not productive right now, or don't, whatever. The wagon is def not dismissed though, quite the opposite. We wanted to try to shift focus from MS to the ppl on the wagons.

Yukari, I've been back for a while.

Please read the game.

Pretty much all you have done so far is mollieworship, like plum cause plum didn't like ms, and point finger at the 2 shinyest targets, us and ms. MS seems like a good choice for you considering hes the only competing wagon. Doesn't seem like you have contributed anything of use which wasn't already said by someone else.

I said why I wasn't here, and I really don't like Yukari selectively ignoring that and other V/LAs. It was Memorial Day weekend. I don't like Yukari's postings all the way through. I'm aware that this isn't a major wagon, but I want my vote registered here so that if I'm lynched people will go back and look at her again. I'm not sure that Metal Sonic wasn't right here.

VOTE: Yukari

So you went from "and I just don't get Yukari, which is why I need to read" to voting us omgus, purely because we wanted to whack some activity into the inactives.

Hell, most of your "activity" seems like filler or excuses or promises to do more later:

Sorry for not posting before; I'm very busy at work (and on a really short break) but I'll be about this evening.

Quick initial reads say that Pirate Mollie and her companion are town, Plum seems pretty town ... and now I'm drawing a blank on what I just read.

I will do better this evening. Sorry for the short check-in but I know I'm in this game and I will attend to it tonight.

walk me through why Plum is town?

I liked her approach. I especially liked her jump on Metal Sonic for what was pretty much a weird push on Mollie. Her thought process makes a lot of sense to me.

I don't much care about the RQS stuff one way or the other. I'm not doing it now because today was hellish at work and I am exhausted, but I probably will later just because I kinda like Elusive (not alignment-indicative). I don't like Elusive's slam at Molly, but I'm filing that into things that will resolve naturally or blow up later.

I wasn't enthused about the SingerSigner thing (I think a lot of people jumped the gun and started posting before the thread was even officially opened). This means I didn't RVS vote.

Mollie-Froggie is town because this is town-Mollie. Ika is probably town because he's really proactive and that's the opposite of what I've seen from him as scum.

I'm twitchy about ZZZX but if he starts lurking that's time enough for me to jump on him. I'm not interested in policy lynching for something that might not even happen.

Sorry for not a lot of insight but I'm shaky tired and I'm doing this because I promised I would do it tonight.

Hi boo! if you vote yukari i will give you a temporary free pass! dont bullshit about elusive cause i dont know her at all.

I was thinking you were scumbuddies here, not buddies in real life.

I'll do you a deal, though. I'll read over Yukari REALLY CLOSELY today (I met my deadline, yay!) and if I think you're right I'll vote there.

While I'm at it, anyone else that people want looked at with a fine-toothed comb?

look at me too since im super popular

Will do. I'm rereading the whole game, so it's an open offer to anyone (I don't want to do a plain reads list because that's SO boring, but I'll do a targeted one later on this afternoon. So far targets are: Yukari, Metal Sonic, Grib and Elusive -- the last two just for my own curiosity).

boo

where are you

At work! Have some patience, lady

I need to check four people and that's going to take me some time.

Okay, I have finally divested myself of my irksome companions. (Work crap, too boring to even contemplate explaining.)

I haven't gotten to that read BUT I'm fixing to commute home and then I can read to my heart's content for a little while

I do think Ika and Pirate Mollie are town. I don't care if Plum has her eye on me except to be happy I'm noticed. I will say that I think people get nervous of Mollie as scum and that the behaviours I was pointing out are not unique to this game. I imagine she'll back me up on the fact that she often gets chainsawed as town.

I will read and have commentary this evening. I apologise for the stupid delay.

Okay. I'll be back around in like an hour and a half; I'm going to buckle down and read. I can answer anything then and I'll probably be slamming down a vote on someone at that point. Will it be YOU? Stay tuned for the next exciting installment!

EBWOP: I'll do them too. I'm going to tell you right now that I don't have a handle on Andrius's playstyle yet, but I'll give it my best shot. Plum I think I can read because she is logical and right now she's in my town pile. I'm SURE that Mollie is town here. Most sure of anyone.

I'm back, I'm reading, I'm putting together things to post.

All this to say I'll check this and answer while I work on that.

I apologise for abandoning this on Friday night and not returning, but I have unexpected house guests because I stupidly mentioned to my mother on the phone that I didn't have plans for Memorial Day weekend. This is on me, but I'm going to be pretty busy this weekend now.

[White Night Imagination]

see when confronted with a genuine refute to what you were originally presenting you poo poo it away and call it "a semantics argument" when I keep trying to say look at the timing and the context. and you wonder why I think you are scum.

the fact that it was out of rvs nullifies your refutation cos your whole basis is that my point is shitty cos IT WAS IN RVS when I am saying it is demonstrably not the case. I keep trying to point this out and you keep dismissing it. we cannot get to point 2 unless you can actually address my point instead of poopooing it away. of the 4? games I have played with you I know 3 of them we were both town in and kept putting scum in your town category for really dumb reasons. we lost them all. muffina in touhou, desp in gm's game and sakura/nacho in touhou2. I am trying to appeal to you that if you are town, you systemically try to correct some of your weird leanings which I think are just WRONG.

if you are town I wld love to see the TOWN!YOU freaking reevaluate cos you are spinning from the wrong axis. if it takes our death in order for you to do this so be it, we will flip town and then you will be forced to do so anyway which will make your head spin.

Let me fucking spell this out, because you're being deliberately dense about this.

My point was not that MS sheeping ika took place in RVS. My point was that

MS was very clearly not being serious when he was "sheeping" ika.

The fact that it took place is RVS is intended as evidence that this is the case, but it is not the main point. You can quite clearly tell the way he was doing it wasn't serious.

So how would he have intended it to earn a town read from ika here? He's not even being serious about it. I'm fairly sure both of us know joke posts are entirely null, and if ika is actually someone who'd town read someone because they sheeped him in RVS, then lol? That's his fault as opposed to any sort of scum plan MS would have came up with here. It is more likely that if he is scum here, he did it because he thinks he would have joked around as town, and so that's what he did - and in this case, it could as easily just be him actually joking around as town. Which makes it a null tell a opposed to anything scum indicative.

Nitpicking over when, specifically, RVS ended, does not do anything to change this and is nothing more than a bullshit semantics argument. And you know this.

I am not saying that all your points stem from metal sheeping ika in rvs, that is what you are saying which isn't what I am saying at all.

Except, yes, it is what you said. You quite explicitly said that, until I explain MS' "sheeping ika outside of RVS", all my other points are invalid. When this is very clearly not how it works.

When you have a bunch of different arguments, you can't just say "I disagree with x, and all of these are wrong for ... *magical reasons* ... until you explain x." And this is essentially what you're doing here.

hint: saying it is a semantics argument clearly isn't doing it for me since somehow me saying that metal was scum for sheeping ika out of rvs when that is what he was doing and you not working from that trajectory sort of still puts us back at point1 which you cannot honestly come up with any answer to.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about responding to you about "point 1".

The way you're going about this feels more like you're deliberately using it as a throwaway excuse to avoid meaningful conversation as opposed to anything else. "MS is town for this reason." "NUP, respond to point 1 and then we'll talk." "Your argument here for MS being scum is incorrect." "NUP, respond to point 1 and then we'll talk." It's as I said before. You can't just claim that my arguments are invalid for *magical reasons* until I respond to that one specific point.

And the thing is, I've explained it several times already (and again in this post). It is not whether it happened "in RVS" or "out of RVS" that happened here; it's the fact that he obviously wasn't serious, and thus that the way he would have been going about "buddying" ika here really would have not been effective to actually buddy him as a result.

But you don't care. You're nitpicking on semantics in order to make it seem like you have a point here.

[White Night Imagination]

Like, the last time I played with MS (the one where we hydra'd), he openly buddied Bookitty in a friendly manner (as opposed to over anything game-relevant) at the start of the game solely because he likes Bookitty and that was all there was to it. And he was town.

And I'm fairly sure you know he buddies up to people he likes just because he likes them. So you pushing it as a reason for him being scum is a load of shit.

[White Night Imagination]

@WNI, interesting that MS decided I 'did fuck all' all my posts were scummy, and then you echo his concerns. If you've got any questions for me, rather than statements, please let me know The mollie/elusive/ms/yukari thing (with you on the side) is difficult to parse and I don't think we're going to get much out of it 'til somebody flips.

However, why is bookitty scum? I'm trying to weigh up two scummy slots, on of whom will give us a lot more information in the flip, so I need persuading here.

admittedly I didn't notice until after MS started claiming you weren't doing anything

after that I took a look through your ISO to take a look at it; it wasn't until then I realized you had outright disappeared the last few days.

Boo is a weak scum read based on a few off notes in what she's done so far. her pushing MS/elusive as a scum team near the start of the game felt more like she was just stretching to find original reasons to go along with the scum read on MS. the way she's claiming mollie is making "good points" when she's really obviously not is also baffling.

the preemptive way she tried to discredit my response to her when talking to me about mollie is also something I don't think I've seen her do as town, or at least not in that way. it came off overly defensive to me. but that's more gut than anything. I kind of liked 713, but by itself I think it's fakeable.

I'm aware you said you were still in the process of figuring it out, but regardless, where are you currently at re: the Boo/MS shitstorm that's going on? incomplete thoughts are fine.

[pieguyn]

or "out of RVS" that happened here

*mattered

[White Night Imagination]

or "out of RVS" that happened here

*mattered

feck

[Bellaphant]

admittedly I didn't notice until after MS started claiming you weren't doing anything

after that I took a look through your ISO to take a look at it; it wasn't until then I realized you had outright disappeared the last few days.

Boo is a weak scum read based on a few off notes in what she's done so far. her pushing MS/elusive as a scum team near the start of the game felt more like she was just stretching to find original reasons to go along with the scum read on MS. the way she's claiming mollie is making "good points" when she's really obviously not is also baffling.

the preemptive way she tried to discredit my response to her when talking to me about mollie is also something I don't think I've seen her do as town, or at least not in that way. it came off overly defensive to me. but that's more gut than anything. I kind of liked 713, but by itself I think it's fakeable.

I'm aware you said you were still in the process of figuring it out, but regardless, where are you currently at re: the Boo/MS shitstorm that's going on? incomplete thoughts are fine.

Okay, I liked that you addressed that. However, I replaced in on Saturday night over the w/e, so I'm not too bothered about activity. It doesn't help my time-zone is different, 'coz getting involved over night isn't gonna happen. But, noted.

Boo's read on elu at the start felt weird for me: I'm town-reading elu, are you? 713 is one of her most recent content-filled posts, but the support for MS in the middle, especially about claiming Ori when others have stated it's not alignment indicative is strange. What's more interesting is that it seems to briefly make Ms think she's town, but Boo appears in the lynch list from him like 2 posts later...

I think mollie's case is up for challenge: bits of it work for me, but parts of it feel very 'reachy', like the discussion over whether it was rvs with yourself. To totally support it, whatever your read on Mollie, seems blinkered.

Ms's early game was kinda frantic: he'd had 4 votes by his 19th post, which isn't just rvs (at least two of them blatantly weren't). The reads list here 166 shows no nuance, it's kinda lazy: it's backed up later when he says everyone is town, but no-one is strong town, which...ugh. The demand for the yukari wagon could've come from town, but even by then he'd not got the town-cred to pull it off. 249 is horrible as either alignment. Their town-read of letters seems to based on his yukari vote.

The replace-out thing is a nightmare, as is the honeypot. In a way, I can see why Mollie is tunnelling hard, but it's not progressing the game very much and deviating off into smaller fracas, such as with you. Mollie is taking pot-shots at time, but even MS said that 'mean' mollie was her town-game: I'm relying on people with better meta knowledge than me to confirm this.

The whole thing is bad, but my gut says MS is scum, or at best anti-town. That wagon also gives a bunch of information - for me, it looks a little townier than the boo wagon, but if it flips town it helps to sort a bunch of reads. I'm supporting the lynch today, but if content from boo doesn't improve, or ms flips town, then mollie (or, more probably, the people who've defended weaknesses in mollie's push) is a concern of mine and I'll have to make more of that over night.

[Frogging Mollie]

Let me fucking spell this out, because you're being deliberately dense about this.

oh ho ho

do the nasty pie do it

My point was not that MS sheeping ika took place in RVS. My point was that

MS was very clearly not being serious when he was "sheeping" ika.

The fact that it took place is RVS is intended as evidence that this is the case, but it is not the main point. You can quite clearly tell the way he was doing it wasn't serious.

your point was that it was "not srs"

cos

it was in rvs. bereft of that point, what do you do now?

So how would he have intended it to earn a town read from ika here? He's not even being serious about it. I'm fairly sure both of us know joke posts are entirely null, and if ika is actually someone who'd town read someone because they sheeped him in RVS, then lol? That's his fault as opposed to any sort of scum plan MS would have came up with here.

It is more likely that if he is scum here, he did it because he thinks he would have joked around as town, and so that's what he did - and in this case, it could as easily just be him actually joking around as town.

Which makes it a null tell a opposed to anything scum indicative.

oh hai mebbe we are getting somewhere. I think he did it to blend in and look harmless and no matter how much you try to deny it I think he did it in order to suck up to ika. <----- scum motivation right here. cld you plz explain the joke tia? it reminds greatly of how he sucked up to nacho in nightless early game. so not null!

Nitpicking over when, specifically, RVS ended, does not do anything to change this and is nothing more than a bullshit semantics argument. And you know this.

nit picking began when you defended metal by saying that it was an rvs when it wasn't. I guess you finally checked your facts? in case you are confused you said my point was invalid cos what metal did was in rvs which is nitpicky; when I pointed out no, no it wasn't you decide to push that i am making a nitpicky semantics argument w/o ever engaging the point in a way that reflects that I DUNNO MEBBE YOU ARE WRONG AND THAT METAL WAS TRYING TO BLEND IN AND NOT MAKE WAVES AND SUCK UP TO IKA. LIKE YOU ARE NOT EVEN ATTEMPTING TO MEET ME HALFWAY HERE.

Except, yes, it is what you said. You quite explicitly said that, until I explain MS' "sheeping ika outside of RVS", all my other points are invalid. When this is very clearly not how it works.

what i am saying is that we cannot get from point A to point B if your counter point to my original point is based on an untrue statement. <----- like ho yai plz acknowledge this.

if you want to cling to your arguably null read on metal UP UNTIL THIS POINT as if you were stranded in antarctica wearing nothing but a tank top and shorts OKAY THEN. we can work from there:

1. you have decided it was null
2. I see scum trying to blend in

I am not addressing the rest cos it is repetitive but mebbe we can move on to point2 now that we have established the boundaries of where we are both coming from but we still need some edges of point1 sorted a bit.

moreover, *if* he wanted to suck up to someone, what benefit would there be to doing it to ika as opposed to someone he is more familiar with (such as myself or yourself)? and even if he did see it fit to buddy ika for whatever reason, where was the follow-up on it? just "sheeping" someone in RVS really does not buddying make as it really does not do anything to gain credibility with someone in the long term - if that was his scum strategy here, he likely would have continued to buddy up to him after RVS was over, or at least done *something* else along those lines, but that's not what he did. the next mention of ika was 166 (reads list where he puts him as town) and then 282/285 (mentions him in passing).

THIS is where it gets weird for me. cos you are asking about the benefits of metal buddying any1 while providing a comparative value system that goes no where. I am specificaly referencing the "why not or you" and somehow you arrive to the conclusion that he is town for this since you are defending as to why ika is not scum. when really what you just outlined is the very definition of null and wifom. my counter is that oh hai I still think he was buddying ika in the first place mebbe cos ika had a good grasp of the playerlist and influence on quite a few players that was evident at the time? I can see plenty of reasons to cozy up to ika, are you disagreeing with this assessment?

[]yes
[]no

there's nothing in his ISO up to this point that could be construed as buddying or sucking up to him. so you think his scum strategy was apparently to sheep ika in RVS in order to buddy him, bc he thought this would allow him to get on ika's good side for ..... ??? ..... and then completely drop it?

this response is contingent on how you map out the yes or no question.

saying that he's scum for doing the same thing he did in his scum game, by itself, is also shallow, for the same reason. I'm pretty sure MS generally buddies ppl when he's town as well as when he's scum. saying it's part of his scum game feels more like you're twisting the evidence to fit the conclusion instead of analyzing it objectively - that he would likely do something like this as either alignment.

I find it interesting that you are accusing me of meta pattern matching when I have been saying that it is terrible. cos it isn't what I am doing.

lets drink some water here and pause for a second.

this is where I look at your original opposition and I feel like I have counter deconstructed your argument to where I think you shld have metal as null based on your arguments but you didn't, you had him as town. that is why you defended him. so I wld like better reasons for why you thought (or even still think, answers to both wld be nice) he is town. cos I am pretty unclear on it.

I hate wall wars. however I do engage them when I am genuinely trying to understand some1 and how their mind is working in a game. and I want to understand you pie. I really do.

that is why I am trying to sort things out with you from the foundation up.

this is where I am at right now.

[White Night Imagination]

Okay, I liked that you addressed that. However, I replaced in on Saturday night over the w/e, so I'm not too bothered about activity. It doesn't help my time-zone is different, 'coz getting involved over night isn't gonna happen. But, noted.

fair enough re: activity.

I have a town read on elu, for a few reasons - in addition to a majority of ppl telling me it's her town game, I've generally liked most of the things she's done over the course of the game. as I alluded to earlier, MS' playstyle is indeed fairly anti-town. I think what he's done this game has been par for the course for him. and I think MS' reads lists this game are standard for him; when he posts a reads list it's usually just names with no reasoning (he just calls people town/scum).

the thing that concerns me about "information" off the MS wagon is that as I said before people like ika (among others) aren't going to give a shit and will just keep pushing her as town anyway -.-

[White Night Imagination]

i honestly have no idea what you're on about for the majority of that post. i could likely write a response to it consisting entirely of quotes

i don't really want to keep writing walls about this when, *if* you are town here, we likely won't get anywhere

although to clarify, as i've already said, i didn't really have him as town when i started defending him. i defended him because the way you were pushing him made no sense and was scummy as fuck.

also,

I find it interesting that you are accusing me of meta pattern matching when I have been saying that it is terrible. cos it isn't what I am doing.

it reminds greatly of how he sucked up to nacho in nightless early game. so not null!

/whistle

[White Night Imagination]

like i'm still trying to read through it to make sure i'm not misinterpreting something and i've explained all of it already

for example, i literally just told you my point was not that MS sheeped ika "in RVS", rather that the way he did it wasn't serious; and you seem to have completely missed or ignored it

[Yukari]

Omg pls stop.. the whole WNI/mollie thing is super annoying and seems counter productive.
If we didn't need this game to go back to newb games we would ask to replace out. Rly hope we get killed soon or something. =( You make our head hurt..

Can we all just get to agreeing on who to lynch and stop with all the useless bickering?

[Frogging Mollie]

i honestly have no idea what you're on about for the majority of that post. i could likely write a response to it consisting entirely of quotes

i don't really want to keep writing walls about this when, *if* you are town here, we likely won't get anywhere

although to clarify, as i've already said, i didn't really have him as town when i started defending him. i defended him because the way you were pushing him made no sense and was scummy as fuck.

also,

I find it interesting that you are accusing me of meta pattern matching when I have been saying that it is terrible. cos it isn't what I am doing.

it reminds greatly of how he sucked up to nacho in nightless early game. so not null!

/whistle

/blown

it is less of pattern matching but more of a gravitational pull.

[Yukari]

Like seriously.. boo, zzzx, mollie, ms, yukari idc anymore.. I'll put my vote wherever, even self hammer at this point WHAT THE DUCK! At this point we aren't getting any new info, just diluting what little info we have.

[Frogging Mollie]

like i'm still trying to read through it to make sure i'm not misinterpreting something and i've explained all of it already

for example, i literally just told you my point was not that MS sheeped ika "in RVS", rather that the way he did it wasn't serious; and you seem to have completely missed or ignored it

cld you plz with sugar on top answer the yes or no question?

we can go from there!

[White Night Imagination]

cld you plz with sugar on top answer the yes or no question?

we can go from there!

yeah, I disagree. even if what MS did was buddying, (no offense) I don't really think ika has that much influence over anybody. like, I guess we have Grib following his read on you, but that is an extremely unusual circumstance and not something I'd expect to happen the majority of the time: it's more based on his experience with you as opposed to anything else, and thus he likely would not do anything similar with MS even if he town read him. and even then he had to keep saying over and over he was more than 100% sure this was your town game to get him to follow him on it

what I'm saying is, people aren't just going to follow ika because it's ika; you'll notice elusive and Grib and anyone else I'm missing pay attention to outside arguments the same way anyone else would and reevaluate their reads accordingly when necessary

and even if there *is* some kind of strategic advantage and I'm just not seeing it - I'm about 900% sure that in this case, it isn't what he was doing. this is for reasons I likely will not elaborate on unless it's convenient for me.

[ika]

WNI ms was NOT "just sheeping me" and you know full fucking well

[ika]

im going to make this clear MS is todays fucing lynch

@yukari i dont give a fcuking damn if you can sort him overnight, he dies now

[Ankamius]

singersigner is being replaced.

[Ankamius]

Vote Count 1.21

Metal Sonic (5)

- Frogging Mollie, ika, Bellaphant, Plum, Hydrangea

[L-2]

Bookitty (4)

- elusive, White Night Imagination, ZZZX, Metal Sonic

Yukari (1)

- Bookitty

ZZZX (1)

- Yukari
Bellaphant -
elusive -
Frogging Mollie -
Grib -
Hydrangea -
ika -
Plum -
singersigner -
White Night Imagination -



Not Voting (2): Grib, singersigner

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is (expired on 2015-06-04 11:00:00) from now, or June 4th, 11:00 AM CST (GMT-6).

Prodding: N/A
Replacing: singersigner

[Plum]

Frogmollie - my question was to Yukari, sorry. I processed the gist of what MS said and you responded. Yukari said things that were nearly unparsable that I wanted parsed if he could.

Singer - my bad, I misread who was asking for what when. I will admit I'm curious what benign act 'Y' was that he says would have been permissible but he didn't care for or whatever. That could be something he could hypothetically do

and

he suggests he'd be widely read as Town if he did either (? or maybe only if he did both). So.

What MS is trying to say about his Ori claim confirming him is bad. I'll stop short of finishing that with 'and he should feel bad' because I don't like telling people what to think, but oh, I want to.

WNI, why haven't you voted Frogmollie or otherwise pursued her? If you're convinced MS is Town and Frogmollie is scum to the point that you can see lynch MS --> speedlynch Frogmollie working out, why haven't you put anything into cutting out the middleman? Yukari even suggested it. You're literally voting Bookitty basically to try to save MS and just nope. This whole bit is part of the reason I'm not trusting you at all here. Not buying Frogmollie scum for now, not interested in justifying it to you either. It doesn't matter. The argument between you two has devolved into something full of negative utility and I don't want to come near it.

Not so interested in Yukari's offer. Yukari's Town, sure (were there any reforms about trust tells in the end, by the way? I know it was brought up in MD a while back). Unless Yukari tells us that he loses all possible utility from whatever this is if MS isn't around tonight, I am not remotely interested.

By the way for posterity keep in mind Hydrangea's weird relationship with the MS wagon and stuff. Seriously. I'll deal with this more in the morning.

Also, Yukari, for the future, don't Slayer's Gambit/honeypot/whatever as Town. Like, ever. I mean, that goes for everyone. Call it a teaching moment.

Preview edit: welp, bye Singer.

[Yukari]

im going to make this clear MS is todays fucing lynch

@yukari i dont give a fcuking damn if you can sort him overnight, he dies now

Fine with us..

VOTE: Metal Sonic

L-1 Warning, open to intent to hammer

[Yukari]

If metal flips scum/town, what would that make mollie?

[Yukari]

Unless Yukari tells us that he loses all possible utility from whatever this is if MS isn't around tonight, I am not remotely interested.

Nope, don't need MS can target elsewhere. Scum pls nk us. Ty.