We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[Plotinus]

6996 Narninian’s power only worked if it wasn’t redirected back to the faction that made the kill but vonflare did say there was a mod error and that they got a rolecop in exchange in his twilight trolling. I guess we’ll find out after the game.

6997 thank you, Mastin. So if ChriVi and Oranje both targetted you, ChriVi’s doctor ability would protect you from Oranje’s ability.

6999 yeah. conftown. or confirmed not mafia to be specific. he could still technically be a werewolf but eviscerate makes sense for werewolves and nuke from orbit does not make sense for werewolves. i do keep having this paranoia fear of “oh no what if it’s werewolves?” but the two times I was in LYLO I had that same “oh no, what if it’s wanderer-nl?” fear (same player both times) and it was because she was my townread and she turned out to be town. It’s the same feeling for Drixx and it’s interesting that i’m not having that feeling for BC, who was my strongest townread prior to rereading. It’s interesting because I wouldn’t have described drixx as “my townread”. Drixx is town because of what cuttlefish told boonskiies the dead cop (sanity guaranteed).

7000 dramonic and nikanor. nikanor’s game had more easy to understand roles, and dramonic had more complicated elaborate ones with fancy names. we had a “which game is that person from”, cerberus v666. he was in a neighbourhood with chriVi and they were both from nikanor’s game. the masons, who had flavour names like herbalist and stuff, were in dramonic’s game. his 5461 had a summary of everything that was known up until then. it might be worth trying to sort things by game but there, but there are still some unknowns and hard to categorises.

7003 that post caught my eye too, but they were voting Lucian at the time. It is true they were making a case about vonflare in that post, though. “consider our vote on vonflare”. the first time they’re listed as voting scum is in 3216. their ISO does tell a different story. Ivy voted vonflare is 984 but it was changed back to Lucian in the very next post by someone who didn’t sign their post.

Voted Vysepresident in 1785 then voted jackel in 1787. woah.

voted vonflare in 3058, then switched to lihin in 3220. this vote stayed on long enough to make it to a votecount at least.

finally voted vonflare in 5236 for the lynch.

7009 but trying to get towncred for not hammering kind of ruins it because now you’re trying to get towncred for trying to get towncred for not hammering and yeah.

7012 mastin, the thing is, we’ve had so many breaking strategies this game for a 100% town win that were broken in half and stomped on by scum a couple days later that as much as we all want this new one to be true, we’re all kind of burned out on breaking strategies. yes this one will work if we’re both town. but the doc circle would’ve worked except devour was strongman. and there were complaints that we had too many investigatives so that was a good lynch pool and then every single claimed investigative flipped town. all 8 of them. It seems that when the mods said they checked the game for breaking strategies they actually did. it’s just.

or, to put it another way. we’re 5 alive. we lynch somebody and someone gets nuked from orbit and then we’re 3 alive. let’s say that’s you and me and brantz. does the game get called? no, because we could still mislynch. let’s say i’m mislynched and brantz is nuked from orbit. then you win! or let’s say brantz was the killer. we follow your breaking strategy and lynch brantz, leaving the town bulletproof and the town easily overwhelmed reflex jailkeeper alive. is that a breaking strategy or just a normal we lynched scum and then we won?

7017 if drixx isn’t nuked from orbit with today’s lynch, and my saying this isn’t going to disrupt it when every evidence we have points to delayed nightkill instead of day action, we can talk about Godfathers. or werewolves. it’s not an automatic vote drixx if drixx is here tomorrow but it’s a “you’re supposed to be conftown. what are you doing here in lylo” thing. if we mislynch today i am not voting until i have finished my analysis of the entire game.

7022 if there were two scum left alive, how on earth do we have to L-1 wagons? drixx could have quickhammered you for the win by now if this was LYLO. i know this argument takes into account information that happened after this post of yours but unless you and bbmolla are scum together, scum should have quickhammered one or the other of you. and if you two are scumtogether then nothing i have read from either of your slots makes any sense. this isn’t lylo but tomorrow is.

7033 Mastin, if you know that townYou would be flailing blindly at the end of the game, why wouldn’t scum you start flailing blindly and say “look i’m flailing blindly just like i do when i’m town”? if you know that scum you doesn’t announce that she has a plan in public, why not announce a master plan in public while keeping the real plan in private? if you know your town meta and don’t try to imitate it as scum, that’s not a town meta it’s a trust tell. maybe not this game, but in some game, you’re going to want to break all the town meta everyone has about you to pull off a win as scum, and you’ll probably get a scummy for it when you do.

7037 it’s okay. Venus explained it. But Venus, you can’t have it both ways. You weren’t here and you don’t remember stuff. fine. but you knew enough about what was happening on day 3 to guess that narninian redirected to vyse’s kill back on to himself. either you were here or you weren’t here. i think you were mostly not here but you continued at least reading your hydra PT and having opinions and responding to them along the way. anyway the narninian thing could have been a moderror. i guess we’ll find out postgame. Makes sense about Jackel.

So, I looked up investigation immune on the wiki and it redirects to Godfather. Copping a godfather returns innocent, or not mafia or town. not “investigation immune”. If copping a Godfather returned investigation immune that would make Godfather more like miller than Godfather.

It just felt like you were complaining you were caught for the wrong reasons.

Comments like these when the person being talked about hasn't posted between the initial complaint and follow-ups like this piss me off.

agreed. i think we’re all in vastly different timezones. won’t speculate out loud on who is where because privacy but my bet is that at any given time of day at least one of the living people is asleep.

The autowin condition isn't that hard to understand given the implications. Reflex JK+Mafia BP+both roles are town+only Mafia left=autowin at 3P LyLo. There are three conditions involved:

1.) Mafia has to be the last scum left. It doesn't matter what kind or how many on a particular team, it just matters that only mafia are left alive (or, if it were WW instead of Mafia, that you Drixx were alive). This condition has already been met.
2.) There is only one active ability remaining in the game, that being the Mafia's NK. Without a second action to overwhelm the JK, there's no way for us to die at night. And with the BP, I'm pretty positive Plot can't die to a regular or delayed nightkill. This condition has also been met now that OC's dead.
3.) Both roles are town and are trusted to be town. This is the tricky one, and I can really only hope that we are both.

Okay, but the thing about this “breaking strategy” is that in 3 person lylo if there are two townies (even vanilla townies work in this breaking strategy) who trust each other to be town, then by process of elimination the person they lynch is going to be scum. You’re overcomplicating it by adding in the bulletproof and jailkeeping stuff. if at any point in 3p LYLO the two remaining townies figure out that each other are town, it is a town win. that is your breaking strategy: the two townies vote scum in lylo. that is fantastic. in my last newbie game we applied that breaking strategy before lylo by getting 4 people who trusted each other to be town to vote the last scum. it worked. we totally broke matrix6 by using the strategy you outlined here (minus the distracting bp/jk parts that don’t really affect the strategy).

Why I wanted the 2 and 3+ parts secret should really be self-evident. If not, then it's because I didn't want give scum a roadmap to killing us or to game our role for their own protection. I wanted to make it clear that the JK part was not all to our role and that you could stop it, yet vague enough about what would happen to deter scum away but attract townies (especially roles like Boon's).

yeah i get it. what i don’t get is why action dan and drixx felt the need to out which factions they were bp to so early.

About the bussing/not bussing thing: i did see BBT mention recently that he doesn’t remember the last time anyone actually got towncred for bussing, so it may be the case that not bussing is now a better strategy.

7039 peregrine never stated anything in the thread. maybe he was bulletproof to sk, that’s the one that drixx and i are both vulnerable to. or maybe he was bulletproof to one of the opposing factions. who knows. I think it’s probable that everyone was telling the truth about their roles. like we had 8 investigatives in this game and none of them were lying.

7040 but why brantz? the deadline is in 15 hours. nobody is going to yell at anybody for hammering to prevent a no lynch or hammering to save their skin the day before lylo. i am still willing to hammer bbmolla before I go to bed (a few hours before the deadline).

7045 he’s vla. and all 4 scum teams were voting him at one point. hopefully he’ll get back before the deadline.

7048 yeah. either bp to mafia means i’m from the 2:2 with werewolves (less likely because i have such a boring role pm) or i’m from the 3:1 game by nikanor. cerberus said the masons were from the dramonic game and the masons all had werewolffy names like herbalist instead of doctor, so there werewolf game is drixx, deathfisaro, tptg, toon fighter…

cerberus said that chrivi was from the nikanor game so nikanor game is: chrivi, cerberus, marquis (the neighbour cop that didn’t work on masons),

but i’m starting to doubt the boring vs exciting role pm thing because leopard society serial killer commuter sounds pretty exciting but by setup spec it’s probably nikanor game because we’re looking for the third member of a 3 person faction. and 2:2:9 3:1:9 makes sense and 2:3:8 and 2:1:10 doesn’t make that much sense? and i can’t figure out if deathfisaro and boonskiies having the exact same role just for werewolf vs bulletproof means they’re the same game or opposite games. like all the way down to what day they lose their ability if no flips. and similarly drixx and i are equal and opposite each other and is that same game or opposite game? in my original game was i bp to mafia vulnerable to werewolf or bp to mafia vulnerable to sk?

and there are just a lot of roles that i’m not sure where to place them.


i have been wondering if brantz was a counterpart role to oranje. oranje commutes to avoid the nightkill but needs to kill to win. brantz pseudocides to avoid being lynched and also to avoid the nightkill, but the town force him to use all his shots before lylo (which is what happened)


The first person to mention werewolves was action dan and he had no reason at all to mention it aside from speculating what he might not be immune to and werewolf being a common enough faction. Drixx didn’t roleclaim immediately but was extremely suspicious in response to action dan’s probing and action dan didn’t understand why because he really was fumbling around unfortunately in the dark. Action Dan did manage to convince Drixx he wans’t rolefishing after that. Drixx did start crumbing werewolf later and fully claimed before there were any werewolf flips. it was thought for the longest time that werewolf was SK even after the first flip. But Drixx’s reaction to Action Dan’s first mention of werewolves looks town to me. It looked the way i felt when i was tracker and somebody started quoting all the posts with my crumbs and calling me scummy for those posts. I reacted with extreme (and, it turned out unwarranted) suspicion because it looked like that person was pointing them out to their scum buddy in case they were lynched.

Plot - As earnest as his commentary on the game from start to wherever he is comes across, there's some definite gut things (and the problems I outlined with his predecessor on the slot earlier) working against him. I don't like the constant appeal to the idea that he was a baddie when he replaced in but now he's improved by leaps and bounds and so he thinks he can solve it for us. So far we appear nowhere near a conclusion.

I read up to page 170 last night but i didn’t actually write stuff down because i was tired and not feeling great, so i’m going to read 160-170 again today. it is 100% true that we are lacking a conclusion. the conclusion will happen after i have finished reading everything, not before. coming to a conclusion before i finish rereading stuff would lead to confirmation bias. i am intentionally pointing out both things that i like from the remaining slots and things that i don’t like and asking questions about stuff i want to know more about.

I voted Bulbasaur Commonwealth because it is 1 day before the deadline and I am not going to get to the finish line in time and i’m townreading BBmolla and you’re conftown and according to my analysis it’s still a tossup between brantz and BC but BC is the one i have niggles about that i can say what they are and list them that these things are bothering me about that slot, whereas the case on brantz is mainly inactivity so far. Every real time interaction i’ve had with bbmolla has made me feel good about his slot.

If you agree that BC is more likely to be scum that bbmolla then please join me in voting them. if you disagree then i will hammer bbmolla before the deadline to prevent no lynch and i will not be suspicious of anyone who hammers bbmolla before i have a chance to if you don’t trust me to do it. i won’t consider it silencing because i am going to finish this analysis in plenty of time for voting in LYLO without any kind of deadline scrambling. I will not come to a wishywashy conclusion. i will not misrepresent anybody.

I said that Plotinus the somewhat more experienced replaces Plotinus the village idiot. Not Plotinus the new scumhunting God. Just Plotinus the person who finally understands why vonflare was scummy. Plotinus, the person who has figured out that Oranje was scumposting. Plotinus, the person who has at least been able to figure out in hindsight why all the players who flipped scum were in fact scum.

I was accused of playing the newbie card in my first two newbie games and also in this one (which i joined right after my first completed) because I was in fact a newbie who had no idea what I was doing and I was terrified somebody might accidentally think that I knew what I was doing and sheep me on the path to being wrong. If I had known better I wouldn’t have said anything but would have just bumbled about being wrong about everything and then watched for who was sheeping me despite how hilariously wrong i was being but I didn’t even know enough to do that. I hate being a newbie. It’s not fun. Remember me pleading with ChriVi to make a case against Oranje because I couldn’t see what was obvoius to everyone else?

My initial scumread on BC was because I had them confused Cerberus who reaction tested me and House said they were being mean and I thought mean was scummy. that was it. it was wrong. I thought kuribo was lying about being a mason because I thought that scum should use their nightkill as a policy lynch and scum hadn’t used their nightkill to kill the person talking about their penis. Same for the Titus vs Drixx argument. Why didn’t scum use their nightkill to put an end to that? I didn’t know. I thought that vonflare was town because I don’t even know why i just did. I thought Titus was scum because she wasn’t townreading me and because I thought she was buddying house and lucian. I could go on and on about why the reasons for pretty much all of my initial reads were not alignment indicative.

This new Plotinus isn’t a better player the rest of you. Of course not. The new Plotinus is able to understand what you are saying and participate in conversations and knows how to scumhunt. All I’m saying is that I can approach you as an equal now. I think if any of you reread the thread you’d come to the same conclusions i will eventually come to. The reason I’m the one doing this is because I have 1 ongoing at the moment: this one. and nothing was happening and there was town apathy and it sucked. The rest of you are probably in more than 1 ongoing game. You are less bored than I was.

[Plotinus]

I could go on and on about why the reasons for pretty much all of my initial reads were not alignment indicative.

Clarification: my reasons said nothing about the actual alignment of the slot i was reading. like titus not buddying me doesn't mean titus is scum.

and if it's not clear, i don't need it explained anymore why scum don't use their nightkill as a policy lynch. i have figured it out.

[Plotinus]

I read somewhere that adding colours makes walls more exciting.

Rereading

deathfisaro

’s claim in 3996 and 3997. He did make a mistake not going after

BC

on day 2 since he targeted

BC

on night 1. Maybe he was distracted by

Ozgin’s

claim on

Pika

but after

Lucian

shot

Pika

,

deathfisaro

should totally have claimed his “no result” on

BC

. Oh, he explains in 4024 kinda — he was hoping to get a werewolf flip not a whatever-

BC

-is flip because he was working on a deadline.

The first response to this from

BC

is 3999. Why not vote

deathfisaro

? Why not partial claim right then?

BC

partial claims almost exactly one day later (-5 minutes) in 4031 after

deathfisaro

continues to not understand why people wanted to say he got “no result” as opposed to “

bulbasaur commonwealth

is investigation immune”, which I think is kinda silly because if

Bulbasaur Commonwealth

was investigation immune in the conventional sense of being a werewolf Godfather then

Deathfisaro

would have got a PM that said “

Bulbasaur Commonwealth

is not a werewolf” not “no result”. I mean, I’ve never modded a game but I know some of you guys have. Can you think of any circumstances under which you would tell a cop “PlayerName is investigation immune” when the player was a Godfather or an investigation immune serial killer or a Ninja or something?

4050 On day 2,

kuribo

,

bbmolla

, etc were up in arms that there was a cop guilty on pirate ika and people were going “what if it was a town bus driver” what if tailor what if framer. instead of shoot first ask questions later. On day 3, people are up in arms that

deathfisaro

had a “no result” on

Bulbasaur Commonwealth

and didn’t consider “what if someone else roleblocked me” “what if it was a town bus driver” “what if nexus” “what if lightning rod” Also,

BC

says it was a good idea that they were investigated but like if you’re expecting to be investigated and you can’t in fact be investigated (unless some other people target you but you don’t want to spell that out regardless of your alignment because no use painting a target on your back) well I think you should have crumbed it somehow. but someone raised the point that if they saw someone crumbing miller they’d lynch that (in relation to bbmolla’s outright claim) so yeah I think you should have claimed early. you could have done the honeypot thing

Titus

was trying to do with her treestump except better.

And you say that town investigatives should have been targetting you all along? but you didn’t, like, ask for them to co-ordinate it until there were too few of them left for it to really work (you tried with

boonskiies

but he was

boonskiies

and he’d already targetted you once so he probably wasn’t going to do it again).

I want everyone to take a look at 4050.

I really like

bbmolla’s

one liners like 4091. He’s been on point this whole game (whenever he was around and not busy with his show).

4098

Titus

. I know she’s dead but I think she’s being right here. So we have 8 cops in total: the ones she mentioned +

cerberus v666

the “which mod made this person’s role” cop and

Magua

the forgetful watcher. Even though a lot of these cops were really super specific, like

marquis

could have checked two people and would have got no result on the other 23 (assuming he doesn’t check his self), and

deathfisaro

could have only got a werewolf result on 2 people and

boonskiies

could have only got a mafia result on 5 people. and

copper

was one shot and

cerberus

didn’t get alignment indicative information at all except it could have been useful later on if we could have PoE’d everyone from one game or another.

Titus

says this is too many cops unless every single faction has some kind of roleblocking or Godfather ability.

So let’s look at that.

Pika was a roleblocker and narninian was a paragon of crime (and probably a kill redirector too. oranje claimed he was in 6498).

According to Oranje in 6296, vyse was a chief of intelligence and he could janitor or receive someone else’s rolepm. vonflare didn’t give a nontrolly answer as to what his role did. they’re missing a roleblocker or an investigation immune though

Elusive was an Avatar of Lycanthropy. What does that even mean. maybe it’s fancy talk for roleblocker. Peregrine was modified bullet proof.

Oranje Crush was a commuter which made him “investigation immune” whenever he commuted and his kill was a strongman because it broke the doc circle. heck, maybe that’s why Oranje scumclaimed in twilight 1: he was worried people might get “no result” on him and he wanted to pre-empt it.

4102

BBmolla

says that if anyone is scum out of this, it’s

Bulba

. Did you pursue this after

deathfisaro’s

modkill? I think we were all distracted by then.

House

replaces in. I think that means i’m replacing in soon. i don’t really want to read my own posts, i think they will be embarrassing. but i think i’ll learn something but seeing how different people reacted to me being embarrassing.

That was 160-170. I haven’t replaced in yet.

People who want to try

Mastin’s

breaking strategy of two townies voting scum in LYLO should vote

BBmolla

. People who want to try my breaking strategy of voting scum today and getting the town win over with should vote

Bulbasaur Commonwealth

with me.

[Plotinus]

Am conducting reader satisfaction survey on my walls.

C

o

l

o

u

r

s

[Y/N]
Area tags [Y/N]
Quotes vs post links [Q/P]
Spoilers with tl;drs [Y/N]

4253 Agree

death

should have been pushing this day 2 (though in retrospect probably was worried about losing the skeptic, though you could have been an investigation immune werewolf for all he knew. You’re not, but with the information he had at the time, he shouldn’t have assumed that “no result” means “scum who is not werewolf” like he appears to.)

I am also not sure how helping to lynch

Lihin

is a point in

Titus’

favour.

Drixx

didn’t help lynch

Lihin

.

Lihin

was town. Sure it seemed like a good lynch at the time and people were mostly happy with it and

Lihin

hadn’t used her power in a protown way but why are townpoints being distributed to

Titus

for helping to mislynch a townmember? The part about

Titus

trying to work with the town is fine and I’m not having a go at

Drixx

right now because I don’t want to restart that thing. This is about

Ivysaur

giving townpoints to

Titus

for helping to mislynch a townie.

4254 the question about House’s roleclaim. This should have been obvious because

Ozgin

said

Pirate Ika is a member of Berlin Undercity Mafia

so clearly

Ozgin/House

don’t get a binary

mafia

/

not mafia

result.

4260 finally

BRantz

shows up.

I feel sorry for

deathfisaro

in 4262. Assuming he targetted someone at random and never targetted himself or the same person twice, he actually had a 23% chance of getting one of the two werewolves. Narrowing it down to exclude his town reads (assuming good reading skills) would have made it even much more likely. (1-23/25*22/24*21/23). That’s not terrible odds because there was also always the chance that a werewolf would be crosskilled or lynched for reasons other than a cop guilty.

On the one hand, I like that

BBmolla

hasn’t been distracted from

Oranje

in 4304. There are a lot of distracting things going on and some of it’s TvT like

Titus

vs Drixx but I think

deathfisaro

vs

BC

was more important to resolve that day.

Deathfisaro

finally explains what his problem was in 4401: it was his first time as an investigative role and he thought “no result” meant “not werewolf” until night 2 when he got the result “vonflare is not a werewolf”.

4460 Why

Cerb?

I don’t remember you having much of an opinion about him before. Just a few pages ago you were saying if you were scum you wouldn’t nightkill him and if you were town you wouldn’t want him vigged yet.

That was 171-180! I am 63.6% done! yay!

[BBmolla]

you're like the one wallposter I enjoy reading plot

I have a rehearsal but I'll be available on my phone for questions or anything

if we have to lynch me today to get scum so be it. I still think it's BC, I think mastin pulled out some needed crazy theatrics to try to seal this game.

[BBmolla]

like I still can't fathom calling Drixx scum then voting BRantz, how the fuck does that make sense

[Plotinus]

that + her breaking strategy really just boils down to “2 townies should vote the final scum in 3p lylo”. we still have to do the voting scum part for this townsaving masterplan to work. i mean sure we could test it with no lynch in lylo but fuck that.

I think mastin knows that townMastin would have a plan here and she’s hoping we won’t see through the plan to realise it’s just your usual “if scum is lynched in 3p lylo then town wins” strategy.

[Plotinus]

+ it is super interesting that the votes on vonflare/vyse rarely stayed on long enough to make vote counts but they were there in the ISO. what if volcano actually does nuke from orbit and berlin incinerates (unfortunate world war 2 reference?) and so the red team killed vyse and maybe the janitoring was a mistake or maybe it was the default for his role or who knows. Maybe that’s why when mastin first came in she was reluctant to think that volcano might be the one left (which we were thinking because bbmolla is the volcano miller and we were wanting to lynch him today and we should only lynch someone if we think they’re guilty), maybe afraid it would reveal hidden knowledge.

[Plotinus]

ugh,

deathfisaro

is being wrong in 4550 but i still think he was “right about BC for the wrong reasons”.

4575 and 4579

probablyIvy

is surprised by the notion of

Volcano

killing one of their own.

I am liking 4667 from

BRantz

.

4699

BBmolla

continues to be the voice of reason.

Anyway, 181-190 was mostly taken up by

House

getting distracted by

Cerb’s

one way mason claim and then

Titus

and

Trousers[/color started fighting about whether masons are conftown or not.

[Plotinus]

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-06-01 21:10:00)

Come on Drixx we can do this.
Brantz is V/LA until tomorrow. it’s up to you!

[Drixx]

I think I agree that BC is the most difficult to read. We presumably have one mislynch to work with. I think probably BC is the right call for today.

[Drixx]

We'll have twilight to try and make a good plan for tomorrow.

Intent to hammer the Commonwealth. I will wait for a little while; only a rational {read: leave the AtE out} post that convinces me someone else is actually scum will change my mind. I've done a ridiculous amount of reading and thinking about this game, and I'm about as sure as I can be that this is the best play to make today.

[Plotinus]

Great. I hope we win this today.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

7000 dramonic and nikanor.

Thought so.

I can say with 100% certainty that BRantz is from dramonic's game because dramonic has used that role before. As a scum role, mind you. I mean, that means it

could

be a town role

this

game, but that also means it's not an auto-clear.

[Plotinus]

7000 dramonic and nikanor.

Thought so.

I can say with 100% certainty that BRantz is from dramonic's game because dramonic has used that role before. As a scum role, mind you. I mean, that means it

could

be a town role

this

game, but that also means it's not an auto-clear.

do you remember literally anything more than that? because i just did a search for psuedocider (Brantz’ spelling) and pseudocider (the way i keep misspelling it) and i’m not finding any results but this game. do you remember the name of the role or the name of the game or another search term i could use?

[Cuttlefish]

Vote Count 10.05

BBmolla (2)

- BRantz, Drixx

Bulbasaur Commonwealth (2)

- Plotinus, BBmolla

BRantz (1)

- Bulbasaur Commonwealth

Not Voting (0)

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2015-06-01 21:10:00)

[Plotinus]

nm i think i found something similar but it’s ongoing. let’s not talk about ongoing games.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

7012 mastin, the thing is, we’ve had so many breaking strategies this game for a 100% town win that were broken in half and stomped on by scum a couple days later that as much as we all want this new one to be true, we’re all kind of burned out on breaking strategies.

Yeah, well, I wasn't around for most of them. The only ones I saw fall apart were the doc circle.

7022 if there were two scum left alive, how on earth do we have to L-1 wagons?

Well the options for two scum are (1) both scum already on, or (2) scum are differently-aligned scum and fear the consequences of the hammer. At the time there was the slim yet existent third of same-alignment, one-off, and as soon as online would hammer, but that's passed.

7033 Mastin, if you know that townYou would be flailing blindly at the end of the game, why wouldn’t scum you start flailing blindly and say “look i’m flailing blindly just like i do when i’m town”?

Because scuMastin can't flail worth a damn?

Like. There's a reason that on the "How to read Mastin: The Flowchart", flailing is one of the main indicators of me being town and variants on flailing pop up in the chart multiple times. I've been scum pressured and even lynched dozens of times. The last time I was scum that flailed was back in 2011, Mafia on Werewolf Island...where I was legitimately scumhunting. (Actually, no, the last time was

Batman and Friends

DC Universe Mafia where I was scum in multiscum and legitimately scumhunting.) Before that, there was Mafia in Emerald City, where I was scum in multiball legitimately scumhunting. Noticing a trend? I realize that this game is technically multiball but while I flailed with blind wild guesses of there being multiple scum left, the simple probability is that it's only one left and if said one was me I'd know that thus wouldn't be able to flail. Why? Because all of the above were

legitimate

. I was acting as if I were town in them. I was trying to find scum, and I was being lynched, so I flailed.

I am pretty damn sure that in my entire history of being a scum player. I've never flailed as the last scum alive, and never flailed in single-ball. You're more than free to check my 150+-game history to verify. My memory, after all, is not perfect and who knows, there could be some obscure scumgame of mine I've long-since forgotten about where I did flail but as far as I know, no such game exists and every instance of me flailing has been town-flail (short of the multiscum examples above).

Why?

Because of psychology, that's why. As scum, when I'm backed into a corner, I start weaving a narrative to get me out. I start selling a story. I create a vision for my audience to see. I'm a writer outside of mafia, but I can write inside of a game, too. (What is fiction other than the truth exaggerated?) My points are always with purpose and focus and have intent. They always exist for a reason. Everything I bring up is relevant to what I am trying to tell, the narrative I have begun to sell.

As town, when I'm backed into a corner, I have no fucking clue what's going on...so I lash out. I go in every which direction there is, and my reasoning suffers. My judgement becomes clouded. The waters become murky. I begin circle-jerking like a madwoman, and there is no clear direction. Because I don't know who the scum are...I don't know where to focus, and the whole situation of how I, the innocent, got run up only worsens my confusion.

Night.
and.
Day.

It's not that I don't try as scum to imitate my town meta.
It's that it never is effective. I win games as scum by spinning narratives. Because, dammit, it works. It pulls the heartstrings. It looks good. So I can get away with it. People in the dead topic will moan and groan that it's obvious I'm scum, but they're dead because I knew that my tactic wouldn't work on them if they were alive. Because my scum play, when I'm alive, is tailor-fit to match the players alive. I know what drives them. I know what makes them click. I see the strings that control the system, and I know how to pull them.

That's scuMastin.

It's not a trust tell because you're right. In theory, I could attempt to flail as scum. I'm not saying I never would. It's viable that I could. I AM saying, though, that I never HAVE, to date, in my nearly-if-not-already-200-game-career, done so. In spite of plenty of scum games where I could have. There's a difference between "I will NEVER do this", and "Why would I do this?"; this is the latter. Why would I flail as scum? It gets me nowhere. It doesn't diminish the pressure on me. It doesn't get me a mislynch that I need. It does nothing but increase the probability of my upcoming demise. You know why I know that?

Because almost every time I flail as town it gets me lynched. Tales of You being the most infamous example, but there's plenty more where that game comes from. (Speaking of which, those scum flail games I mentioned? Yeah, none of them went well for me, either. So to put it simply, every time I've flailed it's ended up badly--so why would I, as scum, intentionally flail?)

but you knew enough about what was happening on day 3 to guess that narninian redirected to vyse’s kill back on to himself.

Not ON day three. I didn't guess that until I started posting more but prior to Narninian's lynch. (What day was that? Six? Seven? Somewhere around there, I looked at the game and guessed, "Oh, yeah. Narninian's a redirector. Vyse died with no explanation. Makes sense Vyse was redirected onto himself.")

i think you were mostly not here but you continued at least reading your hydra PT and having opinions and responding to them along the way.

Actually there's...I think three pages?...in the PT that I, bluntly, haven't read at all. I skipped it all upon my promise to return into the game, which unlike some prior hydras I actually fulfilled. When I was around, sure, yeah, I responded to anything I was asked to, but it was very much worthless stuff; Ivy can verify.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

I think mastin pulled out some needed crazy theatrics to try to seal this game.

If you're town, fuck you Molla.
(If you're scum, ...well, still, fuck you Molla, but for different reasons. )

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

like I still can't fathom calling Drixx scum then voting BRantz, how the fuck does that make sense

Different fucking heads, Molla.

We're a hydra.
We have dissonance.
I'm not sure about the BRantz vote, but it's Ivy's and I'm in no mood to go on my own voting spree.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

We'll have twilight to try and make a good plan for tomorrow.

Intent to hammer the Commonwealth. I will wait for a little while; only a rational {read: leave the AtE out} post that convinces me someone else is actually scum will change my mind. I've done a ridiculous amount of reading and thinking about this game, and I'm about as sure as I can be that this is the best play to make today.

Fuck that shit.

We're a mislynch.
I have no definitive scumread to point to.
You're all fucking horrible and will go after I'm gone, "Well, now I feel stupid."
Just like I fucking said.

But no, I don't have anything distinct to say.
I don't have a scumread to focus on.
What I have is pretty damn strong reasons why I would be town which both Drixx and Molla should fucking know to be true.
What I also have is that Molla's done nothing to defend himself and yet he escaped the noose so maybe him, but then there's BRantz having a role I know has been scum before along with the doubt on Plotinus for this push.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

Here, for your reading pleasure, might as well quote this.

I think everyone should make one of these. Especially mastin.

Actually...I have.

I've been meaning to post it, too. It's about a year out of date, though, but I started compiling a way around Mafia with the Quickness 2 called, "How to read Mastin: the flowchart".

Spoiler: Stuff about it

The flowchart, while half a year old in its latest version, still applies more than it doesn't, by the way.
I'll condense it down for you, though:
If Mastin is scum, accept the loss; she's going to win regardless of what you do. So treat her like town.
If Mastin is town, then she is town. Treat her as town. If she wants to be listened to, listen to her and trust her instincts. If she doesn't tell you to listen to her, take her words with a grain of salt; they're reads but not solid ones.
BAM.
You now know how to treat Mastin.
Will work out for you nearly every single game.

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Though that does remind me, I need a point in there about focusing on scumhunting.

I find her posts coming from a mostly town point of view and she has a genuine interest in finding scum.

Right, that's another one I need to add in.

How To Read Mastin

:

Are you zMuffinman?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you AngryPidgeon?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.
No-->You REALLY need to go through the chart; proceed! But fair warning in advance that it's only about 90% accurate.

Is/Are zMuffinman/AP in the game?

Yes-->Sheep them on their read! Never doubt it.
No-->Think like them and continue on.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.
No-->Is it D2? Yes-->She's prob-town.
No-->Is it D3 or later? Yes-->Proceed.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed to next step.

Trust her as town.

What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.
Enthusiastically work with you-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Nothing-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

Suddenly pressure her.

What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.
Show concern, but subdued-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Brush it off-->Proceed.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Yes-->She's town.
Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?
Yes-->She's town.
Kinda?-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?
No-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does her posting look intentional?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

(BONUS:

If Mastin is behind, does she demonstrate knowledge of the

current

gamestate she could not reasonably have at her supposed point of reference?

No-->She's town.
It's hard to say...-->She probably does know, but not much, having likely skimmed offline, not logged in, and chose not to get the full context to spoiler her as probable-town.
Yes-->Proceed.)

And finally...

Is there minimal resistance to lynching her?

Yes-->She's town; defend her!
...Maybe?-->You've gotten this far and the best you've got is a "maybe"?!? You dummy, run through it again! (But she's probably town anyway.)-->All other factors equal, if you're having this much trouble reading Mastin, just freakin' assume she's town. (She likely is, anyway.)-->FOR THE LOVE OF GODS, SHE'S TOWN, DANG IT.
No-->She's probably scum...but you should run through the flowchart one more time just to be sure, as a precaution.

Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?
Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
No-->Proceed.)

(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.

(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)

Totally should just, in general, take this policy about me.
There's a flowchart that I plan to publish that will give better tells for reading me in general, some of which are timeless, others which are in contemporary site meta, but valuable all the same. Until it's actually published, though, the general policy I have on reading me is, increasingly, becoming:

Just assume I'm town until you have a REALLY solid reason not to. You'll be right the VAST majority of the time, by sheer probability alone.

(In fact, beyond probability. Probability says I should be scum a minimum of 25% of the time. 2014's been something like half that overall.)

It'll save you a BUNDLELOADS of headaches.

(Should be noted that my record was 34 games IN A ROW as town and my scumgame remains STILL below statistical probability in numbers.)

"If you're townreading Mastin, lynch her. She's scum, having successfully predicted your movements and is manipulating you. You fell into her trap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you're scumreading Mastin, she's town; save her from the lynch. She's probably either really onto something or really lost. In either case, she needs your help, either to sheep her or help her develop more accurate reads."

Some of them are out of date thanks to contextual meta shifts, but most of them still apply.

[Plotinus]

ooh i found something else by looking deeper. dramonic’s role in mind screw mafia 4! Dramonic was the tenth doctor and he had an ability that removed him from the game once if he would ever be killed and then he could be reinserted into the game at a different point http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=2175

it was a town role in that game. it wasn’t exactly the same though.

I can see the role as scum or town but 3rd party probably makes the most sense.

pedit: will look.

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

(Note of course that the flowchart is never 100% accurate. It's impossible, literally impossible, to display all of them in a single game since many of them are in fact slightly contradictory, but the point is to see as many as possible and if the majority matches town or scum. This chart has been in play for quite a while, now, and to this date, in spite of no active attempts to uphold it and some attempts as scum to subvert it, remains highly relevant to my play. It goes to prove my point, though: scuMastin always has this laser-like focus. Anything Goes in particular, until I faked having my confidence shattered, I was pushing for a specific lynch. In games like Resistance where I was the last living scum in lylo, I wove a narrative specific to one player being scum because I held focus. In my entire scumgame career, holding focus has done nothing but serve me well. Losing focus has done nothing but screw me over. Because guess what? People like focus. They like confidence. They love to see assurance in a read. They want to have a figure be charismatic and to follow. It's an inherent part of people's nature. That's why tunneling is so prevalent, because it works DAMN good and well to get a lynch. People hate doubt. When someone is calling everyone town/scum in rapid circles, AKA circlejerking, people think it's scum trying to mislynch anyone. They see desperation and attribute it to being scum. They don't see a town player desperately trying to figure out the game. They see a scum player that is trying to find options. So damn fucking straight. Maybe someday I'll flail as scum. It could in theory be this game. But in practice? Fuck no. As scum I'd push a lynch through; as town, here I am without a clue.)

[Bulbasaur Commonwealth]

(I really need to also add a section in there about explicitly blowing up.
I don't think I've ever thrown f-bombs around as scum freely, aside from some trolling in L4D when I literally claimed scum in-thread once I realized Molla had a guilty on me.
As town, you'll note, I go absolutely ballistic, and for damn fucking good reason. Lynching me has never done a town favors, ESPECIALLY not in the lategame.)