Mini 1677 - Ori and the Blind Forest Mafia - Forest Revived

[Fro99er]

not answering the question is basically a scumclaim, right?

This

[Tere]

Did you also note she magically moved to the scum pile in Boo's timely reads list from basically nowhere? I just think that looks at an attempt to give her some towncred TBH.

[Bellaphant]

1) ehh nvm, her last post makes me disregard my town read
2) cho/plume/dragon
3) thats what setup sepc is about, but on the otherside it can lead to inadver softclaims
4) sharing potential people and what their claims are, are not advised... I havent been following that hard to see peoples claims but with the current pool of claims and what i have gathered i rather not give ideas to scum on who to nk.
5) k
6) i neeed to iso then.
7) ya cus im disengaged atm and have a lot of shit. espcialy after how day 1 went i really lack a motivation that normally shows. im kinda in that state of not caring about showing my town play and just bleh

1) you'd be happy to lynch her? Why?
2) why dragon?
3) inadvertent as in mistaken (untrue and badly phrased) or accidental (true but not meant to be revealed ?)
4)hmmm
6) Please do, and come back to me
7) Have you felt that way as town before? I've seen you rage-posting, but this feels different.

[ika]

I mean, I'm impatient too, but not answering the question is basically a scumclaim, right?

shes vt or scum

end of story

[Bellaphant]

@ika, is that hydra or boo? I'm missing something.

[ika]

1) you'd be happy to lynch her? Why?
2) why dragon?
3) inadvertent as in mistaken (untrue and badly phrased) or accidental (true but not meant to be revealed ?)
4)hmmm
6) Please do, and come back to me
7) Have you felt that way as town before? I've seen you rage-posting, but this feels different.

1) vt or scum, though she was softing pr earlier
2) been useless
3) it can be both, ive seen people say something that can lead to pr conclusions based on setup spec or phrasings
4) hmmm?
6) tommorw if im alive, due to ~reasons~ i rather not
7) yes. its a feeling that doesnt come often

[Bellaphant]

6)) I meant can you come and talk to me. Why would you rather not?
7) don't suppose you know what games, so I can go meta-dive?

Also, who were you talking about in 1778?

[dragonspawn]

You haven't exactly been super useful yourself ika.

[Cho]

I'm not claiming I'm mod-confirmed town; that's dumb.

I'm just very obviously setup-confirmed town to anyone actually using their brain.

your setup confimred to be non-mafia. not non-sk....

thats the point im more of arguing now but not pushing it very hard.

if you could draw a conclusion that would make it non-sk then maybe but im showing you a flaw in your setup spec. im not disproving your idea that killing exist with BP, im jsut disprvoing it should be town!vig

I've already explained.

Possibility of Mafia (full) BP - under the assumption that if this game had an SK, it would account for balance in a way that gave a lone player a viable chance to win:

- SK without Strongman has practically no chance of winning. SK vs. Mafia in this case is like SK vs. {BP SK + SK's scumpartners}. Not balanced. End of story.
- SK with Strongman brings up "why the fuck would you have a Mafia BP chance then, that's just fucking with Mafia's heads for no reason" and wouldn't be approved as is.
- SK with 1-shot or 2-shot Strongman still is crippled by the Mafia Bulletproof. Using Strongman correctly on Mafia BP with the first shot would take massive good luck for SK (for the mafia, bad luck to be such a crucial kill for SK's strongman), or require SK to waste a regular kill on Mafia BP. If SK ran out of Strongman shots, they're also crippled. This combination is like saying "ok, so the SK can win, as long as the Strongman kills align just right". That doesn't sound so bad when put that way but it's basically hinging a player who's already got 11 other people they NEED to eliminate and throwing a huge luck-based wrench in there (potential for bad luck, and not good). Not balanced, and would not be approved by DRK, GiF, and Sthar.

Seriously just look up any non-large game where you have a scum full bulletproof and there's only one scumteam. The Mafia BP role is designed to counter town killers, not an SK that, no matter what the power, is already fucked over by the mere odds enough.

[ika]

6)) I meant can you come and talk to me. Why would you rather not?
7) don't suppose you know what games, so I can go meta-dive?

Also, who were you talking about in 1778?

6) oh yes i can talk to you what about?
7) i can go find it later.

boo in 1778

pedit will respond in a sec

[Bellaphant]

6) my reads-list, if you want.
7) kk, tia

[ika]

You haven't exactly been super useful yourself ika.

doesnt change anything. you have yet to really invest yourself in the game. i did that day one and look where it got me.

dont try that "well you are doing it to" shit with me

I've already explained.

Possibility of Mafia (full) BP - under the assumption that if this game had an SK, it would account for balance in a way that gave a lone player a viable chance to win:

- SK without Strongman has practically no chance of winning. SK vs. Mafia in this case is like SK vs. {BP SK + SK's scumpartners}. Not balanced. End of story.

you presume sk isnt BP then. if we go with that that i agree

- SK with Strongman brings up "why the fuck would you have a Mafia BP chance then, that's just fucking with Mafia's heads for no reason" and wouldn't be approved as is.

agreed if full on strongman

- SK with 1-shot or 2-shot Strongman still is crippled by the Mafia Bulletproof. Using Strongman correctly on Mafia BP with the first shot would take massive good luck for SK (for the mafia, bad luck to be such a crucial kill for SK's strongman), or require SK to waste a regular kill on Mafia BP. If SK ran out of Strongman shots, they're also crippled. This combination is like saying "ok, so the SK can win, as long as the Strongman kills align just right". That doesn't sound so bad when put that way but it's basically hinging a player who's already got 11 other people they NEED to eliminate and throwing a huge luck-based wrench in there (potential for bad luck, and not good). Not balanced, and would not be approved by DRK, GiF, and Sthar.

not really, most mods would rule a 1v1 in sk favor. I would aruge mafia winning on the grounds of BP maf to be shitty. But thats smatic. I i dont disagree on premsise but i will disagree that its going to be "sk wins if shots align"

Seriously just look up any non-large game where you have a scum full bulletproof and there's only one scumteam. The Mafia BP role is designed to counter town killers, not an SK that, no matter what the power, is already fucked over by the mere odds enough.

Given how i play on power heavy sites and sevral other sites that used BP and sk as well as modded games where maf BP was to counter sk. i would disagree.

but marquis, i can see where i might be wrong in logic format, i jsut showing you asserting it is wrong. i have played enough games on enough sites to where i can see almost anything happening

[ika]

@ boo, the post to you kinda was my reads list, but I'll structure it better!

Town:

Tere: her investment in this is crazy for scum. She's asking the right questions to the right people and giving helpful information, such as the set up stuff.
FroggieMollie: some posting (like today's) is a really strong town read. The 1v1 is putting me off. Still town
Grib: Town. I'd like more contact, but town.
Chokari: Yukari was newbtown. Cho is kinda null, but working off that, town

null (town to scum)
Boo: flashes of towniness, but doesn't seem to be 100% scum hunting. Responds well to questions
zzzx: this slot confuses me, there's a lot I don't like, but nothing that on it's own is overtly scummy.

Could lynch:
Hydra/Dragon: I need to re-read these slots. But dragon's insistence that Yuk was scummy, not newbie, is moving him way down this list.

Scummy:
ika: I need to interact with this slot more
Plum, for reasons already stated.

p-edit: FroggingMollie, if chokari flips town I'm scum? Why?
pp-edit: maybe I'm giving Yukari too much credit, but tere's read here connected with me. Maybe I'm using too much emotion rather than logic.

this is what you would like my commentray on?

im kinda out of it still btu i want o make sure

[Cho]

Was I wrong to assume we were both operating under the assumptions of Mafiascum design?

ika I do acknowledge and respect your offsite experience as stated before, but Ank/DRK/GiF/Sthar as reviewers and people with certain beliefs about how balance and design should be done; they subscribe more to Mafiascum mentality and design meta - in other words aim to make all factions have a good chance of winning, not by stacking PRs to increase the chances of things balancing out, but by finetuning them in less crazy ways that reward good play rather than action luck.

Mafia BP and a 2-Shot Strongman Serial Killer are 95% unlikely to coexist (like 75% if this was a large), and I don't think this setup is too power heavy in a new/variant way also by way of Mafiascum meta.

The point isn't meant to illustrate a possible 1v1 between SK and Mafia. It's that by giving Mafia a chance to have a Bulletproof, you're putting the SK on their own on the same level as only one mafia member out of a likely team of three. That's stacked against SK.

The possibility of Mafia BP in a single-scumteam game means either there's an SK with multiple overpowered role aspects to significantly give the chance to outplay mafia at night (which in turn leads to a stacked town PR group which we have no hint of) one of which must be at least a 2-shot bulletproof, or that there is no SK.

Also, Yukari's kill didn't go through last night. If my slot was really an SK (which we've agreed that if it were the case it'd need to be even more powerful than 2-shot Strongman) that needed to prove themselves as a vig immediately or get lynched the next day... seriously why wouldn't they just have strongman-killed Frogger. There's also the thing about how scum who think they're dying soon (which was likely for a player under such heavy suspicion as Yukari) will try to use their powers effectively immediately, it's just common sense.

[Bellaphant]

@ika, you asked for my reads, I'm just stating I've provided them. My read of boo is dropping, though.

[ika]

Was I wrong to assume we were both operating under the assumptions of Mafiascum design?

not 100% i could be sliagtly biased due to offsite. but its more of me workign it out outloud. we can talk post game about it in deph

ika I do acknowledge and respect your offsite experience as stated before, but Ank/DRK/GiF/Sthar as reviewers and people with certain beliefs about how balance and design should be done; they subscribe more to Mafiascum mentality and design meta - in other words aim to make all factions have a good chance of winning, not by stacking PRs to increase the chances of things balancing out, but by finetuning them in less crazy ways that reward good play rather than action luck.

ok now that i can work into and understand a lot better

Mafia BP and a 2-Shot Strongman Serial Killer are 95% unlikely to coexist (like 75% if this was a large), and I don't think this setup is too power heavy in a new/variant way also by way of Mafiascum meta.

ehh i would have to work out number crunching with whats known vs whats possible but im not in a mood so *shrug*

The point isn't meant to illustrate a possible 1v1 between SK and Mafia. It's that by giving Mafia a chance to have a Bulletproof, you're putting the SK on their own on the same level as only one mafia member out of a likely team of three. That's stacked against SK.

The possibility of Mafia BP in a single-scumteam game means either there's an SK with multiple overpowered role aspects to significantly give the chance to outplay mafia at night (which in turn leads to a stacked town PR group which we have no hint of) one of which must be at least a 2-shot bulletproof, or that there is no SK.

Thats how i look at most sks honestly, i look that them being the most OPed motherfuckers. Sk has to fight against not only town but mafia. Again i think we are getting into a belif/smatic fight so i would save this for post game but i understand what you are saying

Also, Yukari's kill didn't go through last night. If my slot was really an SK (which we've agreed that if it were the case it'd need to be even more powerful than 2-shot Strongman) that needed to prove themselves as a vig immediately or get lynched the next day... seriously why wouldn't they just have strongman-killed Frogger. There's also the thing about how scum who think they're dying soon (which was likely for a player under such heavy suspicion as Yukari) will try to use their powers effectively immediately,

it's just common sense.

The underlined is what im going to respond to, the rest i understand YPOV enough to where i can follow it and agree on it now.

But more on point, when you play mafia, i throw common sense out the window. Unless if you know the setup itself (100% open) i run under an "anything can be exsiting" and that what common sense should dictate isnt always true. This is known to be non-bastard so im not going to go "oh jester deathmiller shit" but i would not put it too far off to have strongman sk or BP sk to be in the game.

Again, FMPOV you have every possbility of being an sk. It may be reachy as hell, but its somethign that lingers in my mind. its just very hard for me to work in an aboslute of "you are vig" and not have a few questions about it.

I already gave the incentive that i dont care to sort you today so how about we drop it and save it for post game? if anything at this point your slot is self resloving.

[ika]

@ika, you asked for my reads, I'm just stating I've provided them. My read of boo is dropping, though.

i know. i just have a lot of shit so i need to reorganize my thoguths.

mod can you prod grib

[ika]

vm hes not in prod range

anyway give me 5 to organize

[ika]

i feel like after reading beelas read lsit and comparing thoughts:

if we lynch/vig in {boo/ZZZX/plume/hydra/drgaon}

game would be over. however that too large to do them all ill need to sort though it tonight

[ika]

i feel like after reading beelas read lsit and comparing thoughts:

if we lynch/vig in {boo/ZZZX/plume/hydra/drgaon}

game would be over. however that too large to do them all ill need to sort though it tonight

[ika]

i need to think based on what boo thinks

i would consider it an all town wagon but i have a puase only due to bussing

[Fro99er]

@Mod: can we get a prod for ZZZX

[Bookitty]

Ika: You realise that the argument about "scumclaim" had to do with Hydrangea, not me, right? I too am waiting to see what she thinks about me, and would like to see that before any hammer.

It feels like you are not even reading the game really, since you're responding to things not even said and misattributing the subjects of various posts to continue tunneling on me. I would care more if I hadn't already lost most of my motivation for this game, but I do think it is something that needs to be looked at after I flip town.

[Fro99er]

Again, FMPOV you have every possbility of being an sk. It may be reachy as hell, but its somethign that lingers in my mind.

I highly, highly doubt Cho is an SK. Yukari is not be clever enough to make that up, IMO. A fake vig claim, I could see from Yukari (but am starting to rule it out based on no CC), or a real vig claim, but not a fake vig claim as an SK.

[Tere]

OK, going to need to head into V/LA in a couple of hours so I think I have waited as long as I can for Hydrangea.

VOTE: Bookitty

All yours, ika.